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Part 3: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

(962 Posts)
AndHarry Sat 26-Jul-14 16:54:42

New thread as part 2 is nearly full.

Part 1 is here.

Part 1 was started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Part 2 is here.

In part 2 we mainly discussed the legality and human consequences of Operation Protective Edge.

TheXxed Sat 26-Jul-14 17:01:41

Not sure Harry, there were so many at the protest today it felt like a carnival! There were also so south Americans who were chanting in Spanish.

wordsmithsforever Sat 26-Jul-14 17:10:26

I'd like to share an experience which I think is very relevant to this thread and the Israel/Palestine situation if I may.

In the 1980s in South Africa, I and several of my friends were involved in anti-apartheid activities on our university campus on a formal and informal basis.

A lot of this involved talking to ordinary fellow white students on campus, getting them to put aside their white fear for a moment (which had been systematically encouraged by the state since birth) and feel some empathy for the suffering going on in the townships.

Often when our numbers were beginning to swell, funny little notices would appear, pinned up all over the university notice boards (this being before the Internet).

The notices would often by signed by an apparently black person with an imaginative name like Sipho Hlatsowayo or similar - the Zulu equivalent of John Smith.

It would start with support for the plight of black South Africans and end with the same but sandwiched in the middle would be something like, "And this shit is why when we get to power, we're going to chase all the whites back into the sea."

Now I need to point out that there were indeed some very angry young black people in SA who hated whites (Apla being one particular group which carried out attacks targeted at whites, and as I've mentioned earlier, usually also killed blacks too as "collateral damage").

However it turned out that the notices were being put up by the apartheid government's dirty tricks department. The aim was to scare moderate white people and get them back into their black-fearing box, as well as keep that racial hatred going.

TheXxed Sat 26-Jul-14 17:20:19

Yes word smith when I was in SA last year I went to an event chaired by social justice coalition in Khayletisha where there drew comparisons between 'swart gevaar' and the 'terror threat'.

somewheresafe Sat 26-Jul-14 17:22:32

Israel to go to the ICC is trending top on twitter.

Disgusting to hear that female settler drove by a protest yesterday and started firing. Injuring 4 and killing 11.

Let's hope a ceasefire is agreed and the siege us lifted. Surely israel has satiated it's thirst for palestinian blood. Sky news was reporting that there are 45000 pregnant women in Gaza at the moment, 10, 000 are currently displaced.

somewheresafe Sat 26-Jul-14 17:23:13

Sorry killing 1 not 11.

ReigningQueen Sat 26-Jul-14 17:31:36

We can hope but I think Israel wants to totally destroy Gaza. In their opinion, they have support and permission from the world (Obama and Cameron and others) to carry on.

toodles Sat 26-Jul-14 17:49:48

Just read this in the comments under Jon Snow's article. Does anybody know if this is true?

Each individual could if he wanted boycott Israeli products, the bar code number that begins with “729…

PigletJohn Sat 26-Jul-14 17:54:57

I did see a report that the major supermarkets have taken Israeli products off sale, perhaps to avoid confrontations.

I don't know if it is true.

However, I did notice that in two local shops, the translucent plastic storage boxes I often buy (one brand is made in UK, one brand is made in Israel) were not on the shelves.

ReigningQueen Sat 26-Jul-14 17:59:17

I heard that you can download an app called buycott and choose your cause. You then scan barcode a of things you're unsure of.

Chipstick10 Sat 26-Jul-14 18:00:08

They may have permission of certain governments around the world but public opinion is definitely not with Israel

mathanxiety Sat 26-Jul-14 18:01:29

Wordsmith, would you care to spell out for those of us who are thick exactly what relevance your post has for this thread?

Since mentioning of political situations in places other than the location of the current conflict was verboten on another thread, would anyone else care to comment on the relevance of anecdotes from another hemisphere thirty years ago?

TheXxed Sat 26-Jul-14 18:04:09

mathanxiety can you not see the parallels between apartheid SA and the Current Israeli administration who manufacture fear to justify the indefensible.

mathanxiety Sat 26-Jul-14 18:27:52

I can't.

Because that is not what is happening here.

In one case, fear and loathing of black South Africans was manufactured by a racist government.

In the other case, so many rockets have been fired into Israel at civilian centres by Palestinians that Israel has been forced to develop a custom interceptor system at a cost of billions, and was faced with attacks by suicide bombers a few years ago. No such system was available elsewhere because no other state is faced with the continuous firing of relatively short range rockets and shells on a constant basis.

If you are suggesting that there are parallels between black south Africans and terrorists who fire rockets at civilian centres and blow themselves up on buses then you need to have a rethink.

timbucktoo Sat 26-Jul-14 18:39:29

Have the rockets killed anyone?

Fakebook Sat 26-Jul-14 18:42:35

They have a right to defend themselves. (Same as Israel).

Backinthering Sat 26-Jul-14 18:50:31

I have found Wordsmiths analogies with SA to be excellent.

Backinthering Sat 26-Jul-14 18:54:46

Funny you should mention terrorists blowing up civilian centres Max. .. you mean like UN schools and hopitals?

Springheeled Sat 26-Jul-14 18:56:31

Great demonstration, but while it felt great at the time it has worn off now I've come home and seen the news

donnie Sat 26-Jul-14 19:05:27

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

mathanxiety Sat 26-Jul-14 19:13:31

Timbucktoo, they have in fact killed some people.

But thanks to the investment of billions in the interceptor system, about 80% are intercepted. When you consider that about 2000 rockets have been fired into Israel this month, that is pretty good going for Iron Dome.

Money well spent, I think you would agree?

Springheeled Sat 26-Jul-14 19:17:29

There was a lovely atmosphere on the march and much of the chanting was led by children. I met a man on the tube on the way who was telling me of family and friends in Gaza- it was so sad.
However, now I wonder what next? Where does that energy go? What can be done! I have written to my MP, donated, will not buy Israeli goods again and have rung the bbc and itn pretty much every night to complain (feeble response back)
It is excellent to see reports from demos all over the world and fantastic to see people in Tel Aviv protesting, wow!
But- what now?

Springheeled Sat 26-Jul-14 19:22:25

math money well spent? Not really. Better spent on peace. Better spent on bringing communities together. Better to negotiate. Better to spend millions on peace initiatives and equality than spending millions on domes, tanks, drones, flechettes, phosphorus, bullets, nukes and slaughter- and for every penny spent on these, new terrorists are created worldwide.
Someone, somewhere is enjoying this situation a great deal. Clue: It is not the people of either Gaza or Israel.

mathanxiety Sat 26-Jul-14 19:23:26

Are you trying to insinuate that someone on this thread is a troll, Donnie?

Would you care to have the courage of your convictions and name a name?

When a poster insinuates that someone on a thread is a troll he or she is breaking the MN Talk Guidelines.

If you think there is a troll at work here then be so kind as to report that poster to MNHQ.

When several posters make the claim that there is a troll in their midst, and state that they refuse to engage with points of view that disagree with their own on the basis that alternative opinions are the illegitimate posts of trolls, those posters have the effect of shutting down discussion or restricting the range of opinions on a thread.

Censorship is not a liberal value.

Springheeled Sat 26-Jul-14 19:26:33

Killing kids isn't a liberal value.

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