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Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

(972 Posts)
AndHarry Thu 17-Jul-14 11:50:51

Starting a new thread as the original is almost full.

The original thread is here. It was started on 1st July after three Israeli boys were found murdered, before the murder of the Palestinian boy and the resumption of sustained rocket attacks and Operation Protective edge.

There are lots of excellent posts and links in the original thread showcasing a variety of views. The main consensus was that there is fault on both sides. We also considered various options for people on both sides of the conflict to work towards a lasting peace.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 22:58:27

I don't know seeing as I'm not a military analyst. What I can say as a layperson is that when Hamas shoot rockets at Israel and then include a third party, the PA in their ceasefire demands that ceasefire can never happen because Israel cannot possibly fulfill the demands made of a third party. It makes a mockery of the discussions.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 22:59:30

Cleanmean, do you support suicide bombings?

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 23:01:51

Israel only want a ceasefire on their terms. Everyone knows that. They want no resistance whatsoever and to capture and occupy the west bank without any protest.

Announcing the ground offensive when the news is breaking about the Malaysian flight disaster is also very tactical. Israel thinks it can go in without the world creating a fuss and accusing Israel of war crimes. Bombing from the air, sea and now the ground invasion.

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 23:02:35

I absolutely do not support suicide bombings quivering. Do you support apartheid and murder?

claig Thu 17-Jul-14 23:04:16

' the PA in their ceasefire demands that ceasefire can never happen because Israel cannot possibly fulfill the demands made of a third party'

The PA are funded by outside elements such as the EU etc. They can be pressured to pay salaries and it seems unlikely that foreign powers would allow the fact that they are not paying Hamas's salaries to hold up a deal that may bring peace.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 23:09:08

The EU will never pay salaries to those still recognised by many countries as a terrorist group.

cleanmean - I've said clearly that I want open borders.
You however class suicide bombings as 'resistance' as you said The only way really to stop suicide bombings is to stop oppressing, and hope that they stop resisting.

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 23:11:04

Suicide bombing is a form of resistance for the palestinians. It is not something I approve of so stop trying to manipulate my words please quivering and stick to defending the oppressors.

Poppet1974 Thu 17-Jul-14 23:13:23

The actions of Israel in Gaza are truely horrifying, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can try to justify the unjustifiable, the numbers speak for themselves 220 Palestinians dead and 1 Israeli.
A ground offensive tonight too! Not quite enough to terrorise the Palestinians by air and sea!
So, so depressing.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 23:15:25

I'm not twisting your words. I'm challenging your position. Please can we stay civil because if you and I can't stay civil on the big anonymous internet how on earth do you expect civility ever to reign in the middle east? Cool minds and warm hearts and all that.

Do you think suicide bombings are a legitimate form of resistance.

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 23:19:40

Oh ffs quivering I am not answering your question again. Read my last response. Can you answer my question? Do you support apartheid?

I am baffled that you can challenge me without challenging the actions of israel.

ColgateSmile Thu 17-Jul-14 23:22:56

It is sickening, I will be out this weekend at my third demonstration against what Israel is doing. Going out on demos does not feel like enough but I don't know what else to do on a practical level.

I really do not understand how people can continue to try and justify Israel's actions, the air strikes have killed many civilians including the elderly, disabled, people in hospital and children. The line that Israel is defending itself and that it is actually Hamas that is to blame for using it's people as human shields is wearing thin now. Social media is providing an alternative viewpoint to mainstream news sources and is enabling us to see that Israel is in fact engaging in collective punishment.

I have no doubt that we will look back on this in years to come in the same way that we look back at apartheid in SA.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 23:26:39

I answered you fully - I explained that I want open borders (that would be 'no' to supporting apartheid) but that at the same time I'm terrified because I think it would be the return of suicide bombings.

You said you do not support suicide bombings but declare them a form of palestinian resistance. I think that position is contradictory - if you don't support hem I don't think you should consider them resistance - they are simply murder.

How do I not challenge Israel's actions? I want open borders. On the previous thread I went into detail condemning israel on various fronts, including outlining the fact that peace will not include a Jewish state but rather one secular state for everyone.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 23:27:48

Colgate, I do not think those two (human shields and collective punishment) are mutually exclusive.

claig Thu 17-Jul-14 23:32:02

'Human shields'
Do the 'shields' just act as 'shields' willingly?
And if not, how come so many people voted for Hamas, who it is said, use them as 'human shields'?

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 23:38:29

I'm not them and I don't presume to know their struggle. I'm not going to suggest that anyone is willing to be a human shield. I would say that many will be desperate enough to act as a human shield, and many will be influenced by hamas propaganda.

I suggest you do a bit of research on google on how hamas and fatah both behaved in the run up to the election.

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 23:40:25

Human shields and collective punishment are not mutually exclusive? ! The former has become of the excuses Israel uses to bomb children women and the disabled, the latter being a contravention of international law used by Israel to oppress the palestinians.

Whether you like it or not suicide bombings are a form of resistance for the palestinians. If you have issues with this I suggest you speak to Palestinians and their families.

claig Thu 17-Jul-14 23:51:50

Does being a Palestinian 'human shield' prevent hospitals being bombed etc? How effective is a Palestinan 'human shield'?

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 23:55:01

Israel is bombing gaza, an urban centre used for rocket launching (contravention of intl law). Their objective is to destroy the military installations (as is their right under international law) but the problem with that is the fact that there is no way to destroy military installations without also killing the people living there. This is called collective punishment (contravention of intl law).

Their solution is to warn civilians beforehand.

Hamas in turn tell people not to flee as they hope that if there are people there, israel will not destroy their military installations. this is called using human shields (contravention of intl law).

They are not mutually exclusive.

Yes of course I have 'issues' with the fact that palestinians use suicide bombs as a form of resistance, because they are used to kill indiscriminately.

justasecond Thu 17-Jul-14 23:56:01

I do not support nor agree with suicide bombing in any way. It is wrong (and also wrong islamically) However I can understand why Palestinians in the desperate situation that they are and against the ruthless might of the Israeli military and their sophisticated weaponry would resort to this. You can only push broken people so far before they do something like that.
Unfortunately these cycles of violence has been going on so long now that both sides have voted in extremes who will never speak to each other and it is the ordinary people who continue to suffer.

Pulledapart Fri 18-Jul-14 00:01:32

Going to put in my penny worth....

From all the reports/videos/pictures in the media over the past few days all I can determine is that Israel is murdering innocents. They should be ashamed of themselves especially doing this in the holy month of Ramadan. I'm still haunted by the pictures of disabled children's hospital that was bombed! There is no justification for bombing hospitals it's simply murder. How can they justify killing so many children? It's a crime against humanity. To top it all off now the ground offence...

like many people around the world I will be praying for the people of Gaza tonight especially the terrified children (most of whom have lost parents/siblings).

As for Hamas they were elected into power like any other party!

I hope one day the world leaders will wake up and stop the murdering of innocent but unfortunately that day seems very far!!!

justasecond Fri 18-Jul-14 00:01:56

Quivering that is Israeli propaganda and you know it. Just ask yourself, if you knew a bomb was coming in your house would you stay in there with your dc just because David Cameron or Nick Clegg told you to? Please credit the Palestinians with an iota of intelligence.

Poppet1974 Fri 18-Jul-14 00:01:56

And Israel doesn't kill

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 00:03:39

Its not propaganda, its in arabic on the hamas interior ministry facebook page. Would you like a link?

Pulledapart Fri 18-Jul-14 00:06:57

quivering what use is the warning when the Palestinians have nowhere to go??? As far as I know all the borders are shut confused

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 00:10:14

Oh dear quivering. Suicide bombs kill indiscriminately you say? And ariel bombs don't? You do know that 4 children were killed on a beach yesterday and 3 children from.1 family were killed today whilst feeding pigeons on their roof.

You really cannot comment on palestinian killings on this thread when the body count is currently 227 -1 in favour of israel. And given that israels economy minister Bennett has stated that Israel is moving from 'iron dome to iron fist' there will be many more deaths by the time we wake up in the morning.

Israel obviously used the sham ceasefire to galvanise their ground troops. How many stone throwing kids will the tanks bulldoze tonight do you think?

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