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Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

(972 Posts)
AndHarry Thu 17-Jul-14 11:50:51

Starting a new thread as the original is almost full.

The original thread is here. It was started on 1st July after three Israeli boys were found murdered, before the murder of the Palestinian boy and the resumption of sustained rocket attacks and Operation Protective edge.

There are lots of excellent posts and links in the original thread showcasing a variety of views. The main consensus was that there is fault on both sides. We also considered various options for people on both sides of the conflict to work towards a lasting peace.

TheHoneyBadger Thu 17-Jul-14 12:24:24

just marking place as i will be going out today and want to read when i get back.

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 12:36:38

Thank you for the new thread.

Regarding Netanyahu and his fb page, this is one of the reasons many jews liken him to Hitler who held similar views about the Jewish race. Sadly he is currently unchallengeable with regard to his destruction and degradation of palestinians.

wordsmithsforever Thu 17-Jul-14 12:37:18

Here's the ANC statement - see

Just be warned - the comments from my countrymen leave a lot to be desired - plenty of hatred for all sorts of groups but IOL is a fairly mainstream newspaper website. Unfortunately IOL doesn't seem to moderate the comments at all.

wordsmithsforever Thu 17-Jul-14 12:42:23

angry I shouldn't have read the bloody stupid comments - so much hatred! In the first 10 comments or so (I stopped reading!) - hatred for so-called klonkes (ugly term for mixed race people in SA - Jesse Duarte is mixed race), hatred for Arabs, and Holocaust deniers!

On the other hand, if peace can win in South Africa, where you can see the level of stupidity that still exists, there is hope for Israel/Palestine.

donnie Thu 17-Jul-14 13:21:26

Likud: the party founded by a terrorist (Menachim Begin). For anyone in any doubt. The naysayers can read up abut Irgun and Stern, if they so wish.

Someone on the previous thread said that Likud is just Hamas a few decades down the line and they were right.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 20:22:32

I'd like to come back to the thread if we can stay civil and respectful.

halfdrunkcoffee Thu 17-Jul-14 20:35:53

Please come back Quivering; I found your posts interesting and insightful when the first thread was in its early stages (I was just lurking at that point).

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 20:45:02

Thanks HDC.

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 21:10:09

Israel has decided to launch its ground attack. This is really bad news. More palestinian deaths and probably some israeli ones too. As I mentioned at the end of the last thread, ground attacks will result in israeli deaths and this will further infuriate bibi and intensify his campaign.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 21:19:32

My heart sank when I read about the ground invasion. It was pretty obvious though that it was going to happen as two of the three demands hamas made wrt a ceasefire were of the PA, not Israel, and that was never going to go anywhere.

AndHarry Thu 17-Jul-14 21:26:16

Welcome back Quivering.

Please could someone explain to me how the Israeli armed forces are set up? Is there a core of professional soldiers beefed up by the general population on national service? Is everyone a reservist?

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 21:36:04

Everyone is drafted. You can object to your draft for various reasons (I did). You do three years service and some stay on as career soldiers (in all sorts of positions, intelligence, legal, medical, anything). And I think although I may be wrong anyone who has already done their service can then be called up at any time as a reservist.

also people who moved to israel too old for national service still do basic training and can then be called up for national service.

Don't quote me on this as I didn't serve and may be wrong.

AndHarry Thu 17-Jul-14 21:41:37

Ok, thanks. I'll look a bit further into the proportion of career soldiers vs drafts. To me it looks as though part of the problem might be inadequate training in practical application of the international rules of engagement for IDF soldiers.

Philip Hammond was on the news just now giving a far more equivocal statement that than released by David Cameron earlier in the week.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 21:54:40

Absolutely a lot of mistreatment of palestinians by the idf involves stupid, immature 19 year olds.

AndHarry Thu 17-Jul-14 21:59:01

That's certainly my experience of many of the British soldiers I've come into contact with. It's taboo to say so but I can't think that a typical teenager whose previous experience of rifles and artillery is limited to video games has the maturity or judgement to take part in armed service amidst a civilian population. Add the polarized views present in this particular conflict and the high likelihood of repeat exposure to propaganda and you've got one heck of a deadly mix.

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 22:13:59

A ground invasion is going to massively increase casualties and is really a step too far. The ceasefire requirements by Hamas didn't seem unreasonable at all: the opening of the rafaa border, the siege to end, access to al aqsa mosque,(shame on you Israel for denying Muslims access to their mosque during ramadan), release of prisoners who were released as part of a prisoner swap and then rearrested by Israel and the promise by Israel not to attack Gaza. Something along those lines.

Why is it that Israel just cannot allow palestinians to live other than caged in a ghetto? And pulverised every few years by experimental weapons?

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 22:19:32

No, they included demands that the PA pay hammas salaries and something else off the pa that I can't remember.

Palestinians have full access to the temple mount from three sides. One side is the western wall which is israeli.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 22:36:56

I suppose you mean that gazans have no access because al aqsa is in Jerusalem and they have limited access to Jerusalem. The mosque part is a red herring. They want open borders.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 22:42:15

As do I, I should add, but I also admit that I am scared, absolutely fuckig terrfied because I think open borders at this stage will equal a return to the suicide bombings of the past.

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 22:44:50

Fearing a whole race is no reason to keep them caged. There is no justification for barricaded native people into a ghetto.

The only way really to stop suicide bombings is to stop oppressing, and hope that they stop resisting.

claig Thu 17-Jul-14 22:45:37

'No, they included demands that the PA pay hammas salaries and something else off the pa that I can't remember.'

Are you saying that the main obstacle to a peace deal and ceasefire that can prevent a ground invasion and teh deaths of hundreds of people is the fact that some Palestinian politicians won't pay Hamas their salaries?

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 22:48:15

I didn't say it was a reason. I said I want open borders.

I said that in tandem with that, I do not 'fear an entire race' I fear a repeat of the previous behaviour of extremists from that group.

Who should die while we hope?

As I pointed out of the previous thread, attacks on jews by arabs started in the 1920s long before there was a zionist state or any occupation

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 22:50:45

It is a factor that some Hamas demands were of the PA rather than of Israel.

claig Thu 17-Jul-14 22:54:43

'It is a factor that some Hamas demands were of the PA rather than of Israel.'

Yes, but how big a factor is it compared to the other points that Hamas wants from Israel?

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