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Child taken by from womb by forced C/S for social services! II

(1000 Posts)
saragossa2010 Tue 03-Dec-13 21:09:26

As the other is full.
There are far too many cases where the authorities rush to remove children and do not give both parents and wider family a say. Adoption is rushed through.
The fact a senior family judge is insisting he is involved in the rest of this case is a good thing and the more cases like this which receive publicity the better.

The point is it is like justice in China and Russia. If it's secret then those involved cannot justify themselves. If we have more in the public domain that is a greater good than any risk from disclosure to the children and parents involved. it is why open justice and published judgments and rights for all those involved in child disputes to use twitter, blogs and emails and no stifling of free speech.

Thankfully things are all moving this way and we lucky to have people like JM and C Booker to give publicity to the issues which need much wider debate. I would imagine most social workers and lawyers involved in this area are very happy that the issues get more public debate not less. Most professions would.

saragossa2010 Tue 03-Dec-13 21:11:58

exexpat Tue 03-Dec-13 21:21:34

Saragossa, did you actually read the last few pages of the other thread? And did you read the judgement from Chelmsford Crown Court which gives all the background about the mother's long history of severe mental health problems and the other two children of hers who have been taken out of her care in Italy?

You still seem to be relying on the way this case was initially presented in the Telegraph article, which has been shown to be highly misleading (eg relapse into serious mental illness described as 'a panic attack').

The mother was represented in court in the UK, the wider family was involved (but didn't want to take on another of the mother's children), the adoption was not rushed through (as far as I am aware, the child has still not been adopted, and she is over one year old and has been in care all her life). The father is an illegal Senegalese immigrant in Italy who is not in a position to take on his daughter, and he seems to have shown very little interest in the case.

There is really no point in starting another thread if you are going to ignore all the information which came to light in the course of the previous one.

nennypops Tue 03-Dec-13 21:47:20

But there was open justice in this case, because the judgment has been published. What are you talking about?

claw2 Tue 03-Dec-13 21:53:05

The fact a senior family judge is insisting he is involved in the rest of this case is a good thing.

The secrecy is there to protect the children/families involved, however it can also give social services and other professionals the advantage too.

Essex SS actually broke protocol by commenting on this case, without parents permission.

Maybe parents should be given the choice of public case?

nennypops Tue 03-Dec-13 22:02:05

Essex didn't break any protocol. They only gave facts which were legitimately in the public domain, and didn't reveal any names. It's all rather academic anyway as the mother has misguidedly gone public in a big way.

deepfriedsage Tue 03-Dec-13 22:06:47

I think going public to the point in Italy where her name and region were reported on the other thread was misguided. She became journalists fodda, poor Woman. Now her dc has been identified and may struggle to be adopted.

claig Tue 03-Dec-13 22:24:34

Further details from the Daily Mail

"The woman, who is from central Italy, has started legal proceedings to try and get her daughter back from Essex County Council and has hired lawyers in Rome, specialised in international family matters , to help fight her case.

She added: 'The Caesarean was forced upon me, I wasn't even told about it. I did not give my consent either verbally or written, for my child to be adopted.

'The baby's natural father and an American relative were both happy to take care of her but the English social services ignored me. Why? Why did nobody help me ?'


However her father, who runs a restaurant, said: 'I don't understand why she was forced to go through what she did. She is not mad, she is receiving treatment for her bipolar disorde r.


her lawyers Stefano Oliva and Luana Izzo are trying to get her child back to her through the court system.

Speaking from Rome Mr Oliva said: 'It sounds like something from a Hitler regime. We have been in touch with the Italian Ministry of Justice and we are also pursuing a legal path in England .

'We have been representing the client since the start of 2013, when *an American aunt of the second child offered to adopt both children and take them to Los Angeles.

'A short while later we discovered the existence of the third child and the American aunt was happy to adopt her as well so we started proceedings for all of them* , even the one with the British social services but that was rejected.'


The case has amazed Italian experts. Ernesto Caffo, of the charity Telefono Azzuro, said: ‘It is a story that defies all logic.

‘Mental illness requires special care in a delicate period such as pregnancy. But women who suffer from it generally carry their child full term and are then, if necessary, given support in their role as parents.’

MadameDefarge Tue 03-Dec-13 22:28:04

Can you give a rational reason why the baby in care in the uk would, er, 'struggle' to be adopted?

RedLondonBus Tue 03-Dec-13 22:29:21

There are far too many cases where the authorities rush to remove children and do not give both parents and wider family a say. Adoption is rushed through.

How many?

MadameDefarge Tue 03-Dec-13 22:31:14

Claw, the standard drugs used to control bi-polar disorder, such as Lithium, are contra-indicted in pregnancy. Finding a benign pharmeceutical aid in controlling this disorder is depends entirely on the drugs available and which interact successfully with the patients body chemistry. Dosage is also an issue here.

Did you know that?

TheOneWithTheNicestSmile Tue 03-Dec-13 22:32:18

claig, please don't quote the DM in a serious case like this hmm

they make it up as they go along (as you of all people should know)

MadameDefarge Tue 03-Dec-13 22:33:28

you are repeating falsehoods peddled by the DM which were refuted by the judgement published.

claig Tue 03-Dec-13 22:37:06

No longer front page of tomorrow's Mail, but it is front page of tomorrow's Mirror.

SeaSickSal Tue 03-Dec-13 22:37:24

Regardless of the mother they should try to keep the children together or in contact.

And why should being an illegal immigrant mean he would be a bad parent? Surely the onus should be on Italy to grant him citizenship so he can take care of his child?

Or he could even raise her in Senegal. But I don 'to think it's right that either being Senegalese or an illegal should rule him out.

MadameDefarge Tue 03-Dec-13 22:40:24

I think the DM would have a lot to say about an illegal immigrant getting a woman pregnant in order to secure citizenship.

claw2 Tue 03-Dec-13 22:41:37

So facts as we have them

June mother is detained and sectioned for 5/6 weeks, the reasons for being sectioned are unclear

August mother has unusual order of forced c/s followed by LA proceeding with interim order upon birth

October mother is reported to have regained legal capacity, although Judge says when she appeared before him she didn't seem at all well and he was surprised that it was being claimed she had legal capacity. Mother is 'despatched' indeed escorted out of UK, diminishing any prospect of getting her child back. When arrives in Italy dr's report she is in a very poor mental state.

February mother returns from Italy for court hearing and same judge comments she is extremely well, clear and articulate etc custody is awarded to LA

I have I got that right?

claig Tue 03-Dec-13 22:42:02

"And why should being an illegal immigrant mean he would be a bad parent? Surely the onus should be on Italy to grant him citizenship so he can take care of his child?

Or he could even raise her in Senegal. But I don 'to think it's right that either being Senegalese or an illegal should rule him out."

Agree with you SeaSickSal. He still has human rights whatever his immigration status, and of course his immigration status can change over time.

Also the Mail said that the Aunt in America was going to adopt all 3 sisters and keep them all together in one family.

MadameDefarge Tue 03-Dec-13 22:44:24

'the Mail' said, well it has said all sorts of things now proved to be false.

Do please read the judgement.

cestlavielife Tue 03-Dec-13 22:48:02

Isn't it a little odd that their client only told them of two children then

"A little while later " the lawyers "discover" a third child ?

Doesn't that tell you something ?
And sending children who have presumably known only italy off to USA to a step aunt ?

Yes it is good to have cases like this discussed.
But as child is now more than one year it hasn't been "rushed" .....

I don't think anyone would argue the mother does not have the right now to present her case of course she does. But the judgement indicates there was sadlyserious mh episodes in her history.

MadameDefarge Tue 03-Dec-13 22:48:06

There is no indication in the judgement of WHO actually took her back to Italy. For all we know it was her legal team, so that must remain a moot point.

Unless you wish to claim as fact that Essex SS took her to the airport, forced her on a plane and dumped her at an Italian hospital.

There is no evidence for this at all.

the details of capacity were outlined in the previous thread. She might well have been recovered enough to partake in the legal proceedings, it does not mean she was well enough to care for herself and a small baby.

claw2 Tue 03-Dec-13 22:49:02

Madame I don't know anything about the drugs used to control bi polar, although I do have experience of mental health in general.

The woman was quite far into her pregnancy and was allegedly holding down a job at the time, so I would guess they were working pretty successfully for her prior to this episode.

nennypops Tue 03-Dec-13 22:49:47

That Mail report is quite sickening in its sheer dishonesty. They must know that the true facts are available in the published judgment yet they are publishing facts they know quite well to be untrue. Obviously that is because the truth doesn't suit their agenda.

I don't really see how the father comes into it. The UK court went out of its way to ensure he knew about the care proceedings and invited him to take part, but he failed to do so. He obviously doesn't want custody.

The aunt in the US isn't this child's aunt. She is just the sister of the father of one of the children.

MadameDefarge Tue 03-Dec-13 22:49:59

The judge also stated that while she appeared to be very much recovered, her detailed history of mental illness and its affect on her two older children mitigated strongly against giving yet another child into her care to possibly undergo the same horror.

TheOneWithTheNicestSmile Tue 03-Dec-13 22:50:57

The father is in Italy on an expired (?) student (?) visa> if he wanted to return to Senegal & raise his child there, why hasn't he done so?

as Madame D says, if he was in the UK on that basis the DM would be screaming 'send him home'

it seems clear that he has chosen to stay in Italy even on an illegal immigrant basis

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