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Child taken by from womb by forced C/S for social services!

(1000 Posts)
StarlightMcKenzie Sat 30-Nov-13 22:38:47

Could there ever be a justifiable reason for this?

Maryz Sun 01-Dec-13 00:45:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fuckwittery Sun 01-Dec-13 00:47:35

Although having read the independent story now it looks like the English court has ruled out transferring the proceedings to Italy or placing the child abroad. I would query why proceedings were not transferred to Italy for the Italian courts to decide the child's future if the mother remained incapable of caring for the child

MadameDefarge Sun 01-Dec-13 00:48:07

If someone is in the middle of a bipolar high and decides not take medication, that is their right. Thought the consequences of their choices might lead to sectioning for their own safety.

I would very much doubt that a section was order simply to remove the child to care.

There might well have been valid medical reasons for delivering the baby early (pre eclamsia being one) that the mother may well have been too unwell to have consented to with full knowledge.

No such procedure would have been undertaken without a court order. And it takes a lot for a judge to decide to perform a cs against the wishes of the mother, because the mother's rights are virtually enshrined in law.

MadameDefarge Sun 01-Dec-13 00:50:40

Because SS are not actually in the business of stealing babies from mother's womb's.

Because that would be bonkers. And anyone who believes that is, in my opinion, bonkers.

SS deal with whatever is landed on their doorstep. End of.

OutragedFromLeeds Sun 01-Dec-13 00:54:52

I don't think there is anywhere near enough detail in that article to form an opinion really. The judge, the mental health team, the SS all have more knowledge than we do and are therefore better placed to make a decision about what is/was right.

NiceTabard Sun 01-Dec-13 00:55:46

Is there a link to the Independent piece?

Why on earth were Italian SS not involved? It makes no sense whatsoever.

StarlightMcKenzie Sun 01-Dec-13 00:57:56

Okay, so what circumstances do you think could ever make this right?

MadameDefarge Sun 01-Dec-13 01:00:49

SS would not necessarily involve Italian SS.

any Italian national has the right to work and reside in the Uk.

UK SS responsibility is to the Mother and the child.

Not to chase around the continent for options.

Although I would be surprised if they had not tried to place the baby with family at home.

But as we have no information post birth, and the birth information seems to be rather, ahem, loaded. I guess we shall never know.

santandhishappybandofelves Sun 01-Dec-13 01:01:40


NiceTabard Sun 01-Dec-13 01:11:58

Why on earth not? The child was Italian. With family and siblings in Italy. And of course the mother, who was trying to get the child back.

Honestly the idea that an ITALIAN child with siblings family and a mother in that country should not be placed within that country / dealt with by that country because what Essex SS couldn't be bothered to talk to them? Didn't want to? I mean it beggars belief.#

And the idea that considerations like this are "chasing around the continent" and irrelevant - I don't get that attitude. The child was ITALIAN not british, with family and siblings and so on in Italy. The mother had been removed from teh UK and sent back to Italy and so that's just a nightmare in terms of legal stuff.

I am always surprised on threads like this where people say yeah well there's 2 sides to every story and don't even consider the possibility that SS have acted inappropriately for one second.

OutragedFromLeeds Sun 01-Dec-13 01:13:43

'Okay, so what circumstances do you think could ever make this right?'

Pre-birth, if it was genuinely in the best interests of the mother.

Post-birth, if it's genuinely in the best interests of the child.

OutragedFromLeeds Sun 01-Dec-13 01:16:38

There is no mention of the father in any of this. Any chance he is British?

Can she be removed from the UK? If she's Italian doesn't she have a right to stay here?

NiceTabard Sun 01-Dec-13 01:19:23

How is in the best interests of the child to be placed in care in a country that is not it's country of origin, to learn a different language and culture and so on, when there is no final decision as to it's permanent fate, and it's family are all in Italy and the states?

NiceTabard Sun 01-Dec-13 01:19:58

He's american and his sister offered to have the child, Essex SS refused that on the basis that she was not a blood relative.

MadameDefarge Sun 01-Dec-13 01:20:00

So if she were sectioned for five weeks (remember that you can only be sectioned in the first instance for 28 days, and then it has to be renewed by pyschiatrists)

And then SS/Psychiatrist went to court to recommend c-section (I would hope not as an idle weirdly wish thing) to safeguard the baby.

When the baby is born. It has to be dealt with under UK law.

But unless you think that UK social services have some kind of vendetta against Italian SS, (which we have no knowledge of, let alone knowledge of their contact with the birth family) what is there to complain about?

Does anyone have any concrete knowledge about what the fate of this baby is?

MadameDefarge Sun 01-Dec-13 01:20:57

So the birth father wants to farm the baby out to his sister in America?


StarlightMcKenzie Sun 01-Dec-13 01:22:26

It's not the birth father. It is the father of her eldest child who has tried to come to the rescue. They are separated.

NiceTabard Sun 01-Dec-13 01:23:45

There are also 2 siblings in Italy and a clearly supportive extended family (her mum was looking after the 2 girls while she was doing the 2 week training course in the UK).

Can you imagine how it was.

You go for a 2 week work training course in a different country.
You have some kind of mental health episode.
You are taken to a psychiatric hospital, told you are not allowed to leave.
You are sedated and when you wake up you have had a CS and your baby has gone (you have never even seen it)
You are told you are not allowed to see your baby and it has been put into care
You are sent back home.

Just WTF it's like something out of george orwell.

StarlightMcKenzie Sun 01-Dec-13 01:24:00

I'm afraid I have seen some horrendous actions from people who are paid to help, that I can quite believe this story. I don't think it is usual, but Essex are notorious in the SN world for the way they abuse families of children with SN and often use Social Services as part of their strategy of abuse.

I think there are some not so nice individuals at senior levels there.

OutragedFromLeeds Sun 01-Dec-13 01:24:03

That's not what it says in the Telegraph Nice.

'her American husband – from whom she is amicably separated, and who is the father of her eldest daughter'

Doesn't say he is the father of this baby. If he was, his sister would be a blood relation.

scottishmummy Sun 01-Dec-13 01:25:02

I think no one on mn knows the backstory,but that won't prevent the hyperbole

StarlightMcKenzie Sun 01-Dec-13 01:26:37

'Pre-birth, if it was genuinely in the best interests of the mother.'

And what could possibly lead to a conclusion like that?

NiceTabard Sun 01-Dec-13 01:27:01

The child is Italian. It is growing up with English language and culture. Of course they should have been onto Italian SS and discussed with them, I would imagine hand the case over to them. If the child goes back to it's mother, it will have a different country and language to get used to on top of a change of carers. To fight the case in the UK for someone in Italy is going to be really expensive and difficult. And of course she already has mental health probs.

Sounds ridiculous to me, not sure why others can't see that.

scottishmummy Sun 01-Dec-13 01:27:16

Op,do you have greviance with Essex local authority or sw in general,is that affecting your judgement

NiceTabard Sun 01-Dec-13 01:28:18

Oh right outraged fair enough.

I don't think there is any reason to think the father of the child is English though, which is what others were saying to justify Essex SS keeping the child here and not liaising with Italy SS.

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