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You've GOT to watch newsnight tonight shocker on FGM

(179 Posts)
Screwfox Tue 03-Sep-13 21:24:42

Watch this bloke justify it.
Are you a scratching?!

Full report on later apparently.

Solo Thu 05-Sep-13 12:58:30

Just to add, I now have a lot of African friends and I'm still trying to summon up the courage to ask the question! My Dd's best friend is of African parents and I have to say that I'm terrified for her...her Mum is though, quite westernised in her approach and her life, but her Mother is not.

WetAugust Thu 05-Sep-13 13:00:02

How do you know that Solo?

Because if you do know that to be fact you should be reporting those people as the criminals they are.

Perhaps then we would have the first prosecution for it in the 28 years since we made it illegal.

Or are the lack of prosecutions evidence that this is not happening on the scale we believe it to be?

Solo Thu 05-Sep-13 13:26:30

This has been reported on countless times over the years ~ even on this forum this has been spoken of. That is why it's incredulous that there has been nothing done, no arrests and no convictions.

I don't know what the answer is.

WetAugust Thu 05-Sep-13 16:05:56

The answer is to stop using 'multiculturalism' as an excuse for the fact that children are being mutilated by their parents.

If I was daft enough to subscribe to something that dictated I had to chop off my child's pinkie finger I would be prosecuted.

But if I cut out her clitoris although I should be prosecuted almost certainly won't be.

But to enforce the law you'd have to either inspect every child regardless of ethnic origin - imagine the outcry.

Or confine your inspections to the children within the communities that traditionally perform this mutilation - imagine the outcry.

So, we do nothing.

PC has a lot to answer for. In fact it's not PC - it's just fucking dereliction of duty and stupidity.

Solo Thu 05-Sep-13 17:49:13

I absolutely agree with you.

WetAugust Thu 05-Sep-13 23:00:52

Right now! On Newsnight. The Director of Public prosecutions is going to explain why there hasn't yet been a prosecution for FGM in Britain.

Will update when he tells us.

WetAugust Thu 05-Sep-13 23:15:28

DPP Kier Starmer

This is what he said:

Prosecution would send strong signal that it's a serious offence and prosecutions should be brought.

In France children are regularly in France inspected (they have made over 100 prosecutions)

FGM criminalised in 1985, but until 2010 not a single file had been considered by CPS

He agreed they had been waiting for victim to walk through door of Police Station

Says we need an intelligence led strategy

Has set up 'round table'' to see how they can go ahead with victimless prosecution.

Have now completed covert ops and are closer to a prosecution.

Need clear guidance for HCP on what to report and when

"Moving much closer to a prosecution."

Says we have to appreciate that the cases shown by Newsnight are "difficult to follow up". Victims did not want to press for prosecution.

Says they did risk assessments to the health of the victim before deciding whether to prosecute.

Reiterates need for 'victimless prosecution'.

He says saying "we are much closer" and it will be intelligence led.

Cannot give a date by which any prosecution will be brought.

Have made "steps in the right direction" in a "very difficult area of the law".

So - to summarise, in my opinion - more pussy-footing about.

What is so difficult about noticing that a child has been mutilated and dragging its parents to the nearest Police Station to explain how and when this happened.

Oooops - I forgot, their misguided interpretation of 'multiculturalism' prevents them from doing that. The Met police Officer that preceded the DPP interview seemed to imply that his hands were tied.

Does make me very angry.

Solo Thu 05-Sep-13 23:31:53

Yes, nothing definite actually happening still hmm

WetAugust Thu 05-Sep-13 23:35:06

It's depressing isn't it. It's worse than depressing it's criminal behaviour that is being condoned by the State for fear of upsetting a minority.

Very, very wrong.

msrisotto Thu 05-Sep-13 23:38:57

Thanks for the link Sarah, I'll mark my place so I can watch it tomorrow

bemybebe Thu 05-Sep-13 23:46:16

i don't get it. we prosecute statutory rape cases. they don't always have victims agreement... what can be done by us? where should we lobby for this abuse of female children to be taken seriously??

WetAugust Thu 05-Sep-13 23:53:41

I am so tempted to write to the DPP and tell him he was less than convincing to me that he was actually doing something about this.

I cannot conceive how you can have a 'victimless prosecution'. Surely the whole basis of criminal law is that you need a victim?

We can protect the identities of victims.

I think the Police and DPP have totally tied themselves in knots over this, probably with a bit of Human Rights law thrown into the mix.

For example, you detect a mutilated child. You ascertain the parents commissioned the mutilation. You prosecute the parents.

But what happens to the victim?

Both the victim and her parents have the right to a family life under HR law.

If the victim wants to continue living with the perpetrators can you overrule and say No. You cannot reasonably remove her for her own protection because the deed has already been done and so will not be repeated so there is nothing to protect her against.

Where would you remove her to without ostracizing her from her community?

It is difficult I agree - but not insurmountable. France seems to be able to bring successful prosecutions.

MariaLuna Thu 05-Sep-13 23:55:03

I recently heard some very good advice to give to girls who fear they may be taken abroad for FGM is to stick a spoon in their pants. This will set off the metal detector in the airport and give the girls a chance to talk to officials who can prevent them leaving the country.

Please everyone, spread the word, I have them on my FB.


MariaLuna Thu 05-Sep-13 23:56:33

bemybebe Thu 05-Sep-13 23:57:27

this is a good start Maria!

WetAugust Thu 05-Sep-13 23:57:50

Was a bit shock at some attitudes when I read this:

WetAugust Fri 06-Sep-13 00:02:39

The French take a much more robust view than we do - the act of FGM alone is sufficient evidence to prosecute.

Common sense that we are too <insert reason here> to apply.

vixsatis Fri 06-Sep-13 10:53:43

The critical difference in France seems to be that the offence relates not just to the act of mutilation but also to the act of allowing or procuring the mutilation of a child in one's care. This must make "proof" much easier and less relant on victim evidence which is not going to be forthcoming.

France generally also seems to have been less blinded by multiculturalism. If something is barbaric, then it is barbaric no matter what the ethnic or cultural associations.

I think it is true that enforcement of the law does need to go hand in hand with changing opinions within the relevant groups. Women do it to their daughters because they fear that the daughter will never get married or will suffer physical detriment if they do not

Wellwobbly Fri 06-Sep-13 11:16:29

I simply cannot watch any of that sort of thing. The anguished shrieks of the children is unbearable.

This is NOT an islamic practice, but the islamic ummah needs to have a word with their African brethren.

It is in fact Phaeronic in origin. It is a practise coming out of ancient Egypt and extends as far down as central Kenya (the Masai tribes). 90% of Egyptian girls are 'circumcised', and shockingly it is the women who inflict it on their girls.

There is in fact a lot of peer group pressure, for instance in Nigeria where girls who are not 'circumcised' are shamed for not being so.

The British in colonial times tried to stamp it out by banning it and hanging the 'midwives'.

I think the British government should be very, very clear with immigrant populations. This is barbaric, illegal and a violation. Your daughters WILL be checked at school. IF they are discovered to have been genitally mutilated, ALL BENEFITS including housing will be stopped, you will be evicted and you will be deported.

But hand wringers would never have the guts.

SPBisResisting Fri 06-Sep-13 11:21:46

Benefits? Deported? What if neither of these is an option?
Surely the brst solution is simply to prosecute for actual bodily harm on a child?

Wellwobbly Fri 06-Sep-13 11:38:56

Yes, you are right. My comments come back to the old question which used to be not allowed

'What constitutes being British?' We have worked long and hard, and suffered many civil wars, the civil wars that they are going through and running away from, to have the values and the history and the institutions we do. Our institutions are important.

I don't have any multi culti hand wringing about this issue whatsoever. What the British Government giveth, the British Government can taketh away!

Wellwobbly Fri 06-Sep-13 11:39:35

*their countries

williaminajetfighter Fri 06-Sep-13 11:41:30

Yes, 'prosecution is near' - I bet.

It blows my mind that social workers are taking away kids from their parents for all sorts of reasons - but not this...

My DH works for the dept for intl development and he said not only do they have a number of antiFGM initiatives overseas but also some within the UK. And still nothing happens.

It also blows my mind that there are, like, 50 posters promoting breastfeeding in my doctors office - produced by a million agencies. But in all my time living in the UK I've NEVER EVER seen a poster or any awareness information about FGM. Why would people come forward if there was no call for them to do so?

Doctors will see this all the time especially in maternity ward as women who have this can tend to have significant difficulties with labour - as well as a history of UTIs. If doctor's know then surely there is a way to alert authorities that this is a trend that may run in a familiy?

Never forget one person describing that the end result is a woman's 'bits' looking and feeling 'smooth like the palm of your hand'. Delightful.

MoominMammasHandbag Fri 06-Sep-13 12:17:33

I am really not trying to sidetrack this very important issue, but male circumcision has a lot of similarities doesn't it? It is performed without the child's consent, justified for spurious hygiene, aesthetic and masturbation reasons and there is growing evidence that it impacts negatively on a man's sexual enjoyment. Surely it is all genital mutilation that should be banned, not just female?

Lottapianos Fri 06-Sep-13 12:24:07

'I think the British government should be very, very clear with immigrant populations. This is barbaric, illegal and a violation. Your daughters WILL be checked at school.'

Completely agree with this. There is no room for hand-wringing or tip-toeing around people's 'beliefs' when their children's bodies are being permanently damaged. I think this should apply to male circumcision too. It's physical, emotional and sexual abuse - these are all things we are not supposed to be tolerating in this country.

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