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some new research into mmr and autism reported

(64 Posts)
zippitippitoes Sun 28-May-06 12:19:08

.. article here

Twiglett Sun 28-May-06 12:21:54

so that's the third study with the same findings .. hmmmm

zippitippitoes Sun 28-May-06 19:45:33

in case anyone is interested but not seen it

MerlinsBeard Sun 28-May-06 19:48:38

do they give the MMR in america or something else? cos, doesn't say its a from having MMR, (unless i missed it) just that the bacteria was found in the gut of aome children with autism.

unless i read it wrong

SenoraPostrophe Sun 28-May-06 19:49:26

but twig, it doesn't prove that there is a causative link, just that further study is needed. There have also been several epidemiological studies which found no link (although I don't think there has been a proper longitudinal one, which there should be). so hmm nothing really...

MerlinsBeard Sun 28-May-06 19:49:27

sorry, just re read ignore last post

mousiemousie Sun 28-May-06 19:49:33

It is so sad that we feel the government can no longer be trusted to give us the truth when the public health issue is so important

SenoraPostrophe Sun 28-May-06 19:55:21

nobody knows the truth, only probablities.

I think the reason this debate winds me up so much is that there has been pretty much no studies on children who've had separate jabs - for all we know they could be a bigger public health issue.

LittleMerlin Sun 28-May-06 19:57:45

Oh god, this is all I need, just as DS2 is due his MMR!!!! Went singles with DS1 cos the Wakefield thing had blown up at the time. I want to do singles again (mainly so I feel both DS's have had the same chance IFYKWIM), DH doesn't - maybe if he reads this he may think again.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads Sun 28-May-06 20:02:06

No-one (AFAIK) has ever disputed that a subset of autistic children have a novel gut disorder as described by Andrew Wakefield. INteresting that another team have found the vaccine strain measles virus in these children. I wish that the people who thought that the MMR was not involved in triggering autism in this subgroup would actually come up with an alternative explanation for the gut disease (and the presence of the vaccine strain measles virus- indeed may not be causative, but may be doing its own damage and may even be treatable) rather than spending time "proving" that the MMR is safe for the majority of children- every man and his cat knows that- including Andy Wakefield.

Estimates range between 4 and 20% of children with autism having the condition triggered in this way, with 5% being a conservative sensible estimate.

So tiny numbers, but it matters greatly to those affected.

If you have no experience of autism can I suggest you watch this film, autism every day , it shows it as it is. Then imagine living like that every day. If, as appears to be the case, a subset of children share certain clinical features that are different to other children with autism, surely it is worth doing your best to find out why. Autistic enterocolitis is a very painful condition, an NT child would be getting a lot of treatment for it.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads Sun 28-May-06 20:05:55

SP- children with a autism and a particular form of bowel disease having vaccine strain measles virus in their gut and CSF is not a probability. AFAIK its not been found in controls (given lumbar punctures to check for meningitis etc). It's a clinical finding. Of course it doesn't prove causation, - something that O'Leary has always pointed out, but it is nevertheless and interesting finding.

SenoraPostrophe Sun 28-May-06 20:25:21

jimjams - no - I'm not disputing that. what I'm disputing is that it means that mmr causes autism. A trigger is not the same as a cause, and anyway it could easily be the other way round: that something about the gut of autistic children causes it to retain the virus.

Like I say, what i particularly dislike about the whole thing is the conspiracy theory stuff, and the assumption that single vaccines must be better. can you think of any study at all on the effects of the single rubella vaccine on babies? Plus the other alternative - no jabs at all - is patently more dangerous statistically than mmr.

But yes, like I say further research is needed - not just repetitions of the stuff that's already been done. You're right: we do need to know more about that subset of children.

SenoraPostrophe Sun 28-May-06 20:26:18

also... how many of those lumbar punctures have they done on autistic kids who didn't have the mmr?

Fauve Sun 28-May-06 20:27:41

The Mail on Sunday's report says explicitly that what was found in the bowels of the autistic children was the vaccine strain of measles, NOT a wild strain (in a quote from the research team). Don't know if that clarifies anything!

SenoraPostrophe Sun 28-May-06 20:29:10

no it doesn't.

foundintranslation Sun 28-May-06 20:43:15

SP, no, a trigger is not the same as a cause, but I think the difference is pretty academic if MMR does trigger autism in a particular child - autism which would not have been triggered had the vaccine not been given.
I think that ds would probably be fine given the MMR, but he does appear to have some risk factors and however slight the risk, I am not prepared to take it - so he will have singles. I take your point about the lack of research there too, and agree completely that what is needed is more research - for informed decisions.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads Sun 28-May-06 20:46:40

Have you tried to do a lumbar puncture on an autitic child- these children are severly autistic- to examine ds1's teeth he would need a GA. Please watch the film I linked to earlier and try and imagine doing invasive studies on these children. To do the lumbar punctures on the British children they had to fly to the States as permission to do it was refused here. Anyway the subset is not being identified by autistic children with MMR vs without MMR - it is autistic children with gut disease- and a specific gut disease- autistic enterocolitis. If ds1 ever has to have a lumbar puncture (which obviously I hope with everything never has to happen) then they are welcome to compare his results with the MMR group- he had single jabs. To be honest though - these researchers aren't that interested in children like ds1- they're working on gut disease which ds1 does not have (he has a leaky gut but that is different).

There are other differences with this group- as well as the gut disease they have different urinary profiles from the non MMR regressive group.

SP- there have been some studies linking single rubella (and MMR) given to mothers who are bfeeding with an increased risk of developing autism in the baby. Also of course it is known that wild rubella (and vaccine) caught/given in early pregnancy can lead to autism.

The media may get its knickers in a twist over MMR- but most of that is political- ie the givts refusal to allow singles- if they did it wouldn't be an issue. The people working with these families are more interested in potential treatments for this very painful condition.

I recommend Richard Lathe's book. Autism, Brain and Environment. He developed a vaccine himself so is not anti vacination, he and mentions the MMR only briefly (he says that the gut disease is not in dispute and regression following MMR appears to occur in 5% of cases). His book gives a very good summary of current knowledge on the physiological features- for want of a better phrase- on autism and describes the complexity of the condition very well. If anyone is truly interested in factors that may lead to autism it is essential reading.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads Sun 28-May-06 20:49:45

just to make it clear- regression following MMR appears to occur in 5% of autism cases- ie a small number.

Yes you made a good point foundintranslation. We have worked hard to figure out potential figures for ds1- because we have wanted to keep ds2 and ds3 as far away from them as possible. We know they are almost certainly genetically at risk.

PLease anyone without hands on autism experience, watch the film. Poeple have good reason for not wanting this to happen.

SenoraPostrophe Sun 28-May-06 20:51:07

sorry jimjams - I wasn't suggesting that they "should" do lumbar punctures purely for scientific research. I was just noting that it's a subset of data which (I think) doesn't exist.

I absolutely agree that more effort should go into helping families/children too. In fact I think we're arguing the same thing, but I more aggressively than you? It is the media hysteria I really hate.

FairyMum Sun 28-May-06 20:53:05

There has been lots of research into the MMR and millions of children have had this vaccine. In fact it has an excellent safety record. There has been no research into single vaccines and no country in the world as far as I know uses singles in their vaccination programme. I don't understand why parents so desperate for more research on one hand decide on singles???? Then of course it is the parents who think all vaccinations are unatural and these diseases are all so innocent. Well, it's easy to hold those beliefs as long as you are surfing along on the majority of the population being vaccinated, but we'll what happens once they actually have to deal with measles and whooping coughs......My friend's DD attends the Greenwich Steiner school where there has been a few suspected cases of whopping cough. One mother has apparently taken her DD out of the school because she feels her DD is at risk. Well, why didn't she vaccinate her then ?

foundintranslation Sun 28-May-06 21:01:27

Fairymum, I can only speak for myself of course, but I decided on singles after reading a lot on here and listening to people like Jimjams who know what they are talking about, looking at the available evidence and my family health history, and also deciding how I feel about vaccinations and the diseases themselves. FWIW I am pro-vax. My ds has had the DTPs and I specifically requested Prevenar for him. I'm not not vaccinating. I too am sure the MMR is safe for the majority of children - just like the majority of children can eat peanuts without anything to fear. However, if you have reason to believe your child might be in that tiny unlucky minority who might die if they eat a peanut, e.g. if there is family history there, well then, you're going to keep peanuts away from them, aren't you? OK, I'll admit it's not a perfect analogy, but because I think ds might be at a higher risk of being susceptible to MMR damage, I'm not taking the risk.
Re. most (all?) countries using the MMR - I suspect it is cheaper and more efficient in terms of vaccination coverage. That doesn't mean it's always ideal, though.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads Sun 28-May-06 21:12:31

Do me a favour- watch the film FairyMum.

I spent Friday afternoon with ds1's class. One boy in his class caught meningitis as a baby, now aged 7 he cannot talk, has mobility problems, has epilepsy (for some reaosn adores ds1). He is a wonderful child, but not the same as he would have been without meningitis. He is an only child. Another child in his class appeared to be developing normally, had his MMR, within 24 hours had huge seizures that the hospital struggled to get under control. After he recovered he had lost his developing speech etc. Aged 7 he is severely autistic (more autistic that any of the children on the film). He cannot talk, is not toilet trained etc. His paediatrician has told his mother that he thinks the MMR triggered his autism.

Both children were developing normally, both children will now never live independently, both will probably require 24 hour care for the rest of their lives. Both children deserve to have their condition recognised and both families deserve to know that the factors leading to their child's condition is taken seriously.

The Greenwich Steiner School has many unvaccinated children (I went to the Parentr and toddler group with ds1 at a time when we were not welcome in mainstream meetings), the reasons have very very little to do with MMR. The whole philosophy of "health" is different from an anthrosophical point of view, and in fact anthrophosophical doctors do recommend MMR for teens and above if children have not caught measles by then.

snowleopard Sun 28-May-06 21:12:57

I don't understand why MMR is blamed when the measles virus has showed up in these children. Couldn't the same thing happen from a single measles jab?

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads Sun 28-May-06 21:18:03

I don't think these research papers have specifically blamed MMR. Single jabs were suggested by Wakefield at a press conference as an alternative whilst further research is carried out as a) there have been fewer anecdotal reports of problems after single jabs (although certainly there are some- my aunt cares for an adult brain damaged following a single measles jab).

TBH I'm more interested in a recognition that the MMR can cause major problems, and appropriate treatment/compensation in those cases, and identifying the risk factors rather than worrying about MMR vs monovalents, that;s a complete oversimplification of the biological factors involved in autism anyway.

onlyjoking9329 Sun 28-May-06 22:06:37

i am sure that the MMR triggered my sons autism,my twin girls have autism and were born with autism, he was talking interacting using his potty cuddly smiley pointing at stuff bring things to show us, in fact the pead used DS as an example of an NT kid, then he had the MMR, he was very poorly high temp very floppy, wouldnt let us touch him/ look at him, started jumping and flapping banging his head on the floor, he stopped talking and totally withdrew it was like our son had been swopped overnight, we still feel that we have lost a child and that he will never return. i agree with Jimjams some kids have a predisposition to autism the MMR was the trigger.

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