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witness in sex abuse trial commits suicide after grilling by female QC

(240 Posts)
BobbiFleckmann Fri 08-Feb-13 16:23:59

the violin teacher who was the unwilling prosecution witness against the two Chethams Music School teachers killed herself in the middle of the trial. She told her friend she felt like she'd been raped again after the female defence QC accused her of lying in her evidence. Very, very sad.
My cynical view is that defendants in sex cases go for female barristers because they think it'll give them a veneer of innocence /respectability. I know the woman was "just doing her job" but I'd sure like to hear her views on methods of cross examination in sex abuse trials.

ratbagcatbag Fri 15-Feb-13 20:36:57

Thanks Karlos, it's not often a poster really infuriates me, but hate it when some manage it. smile

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Fri 15-Feb-13 19:05:30

ratbag the people who know about this stuff and deal with it know that people cannot be expected to remeber dates and details when they are talking about abuse they suffered as children and they fight hard to frame the case in the best possible way. Only an idiot or someone with an agenda would think otherwise. I take my hat off to you for having the courage to go through the process and I'm glad you were vindicated.

ratbagcatbag Fri 15-Feb-13 17:54:30

I was aged between three and twelve, I struggled with some of the years what happened when, I can still only define which house it happened in and I moved when I 10, that's between 5-7 years of mixed memories and dates. 8 charges, one per year they believe he abused me, it is a lot, 3 attempted rapes plea bargained away.

Stop minimising the victims memories, it's not so fucking easy to remember everything in date order, you mind doesn't want you too, mine was ten years down the line ad I still couldn't do it even now I've processed it all.

You really are a piece of work and I really hope you get more opinions somewhere else and drop yourself right in it.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Fri 15-Feb-13 15:00:05

"I can go for someone of 8 not being able to tell you the age/year they where abused but a 12/13/14 year old."
experienced prosecutors of my acquaintance tell me different. I'm afraid the sad truth is that for youg people who have been subjected to abuse day after day for years on end things often get a bit jumbled. Prosecutors have to select sample charges from different time periods to ensure the course of offending is properly reflected 0 the criminality cannot be charged "en masse".
Far from being some kind of cospiracy, such practices are designed to ensure a fair trial; they ensure the defendant understands, as clearly as possible, what he is being asked to account for.
the CPS and police have not regarded such difficulties, which are inherent in hostoric cases, as a bar to charge or prosecution, for some considerable time; certainly since I qualified, which is 15 years' ago. I, for one, am jolly glad about that.As for the point about civil action, perhaps you could explain to me what the point of suing people with no money would be.

facebookaddictno9 Fri 15-Feb-13 14:08:39

oh and all you have made me think is with people like you in the world no wonder few victims come forward

facebookaddictno9 Fri 15-Feb-13 14:06:31

wonderwoman witnesses are not supposed to discuss ongoing cases with each other - even husband and wives - so you have jeaporaised the cAse for the defence already

bollox do all new cases have to be prosecuted the guidance for cps prosecution is freely av. online

there is again in your case no fair trial for the victim because the defence witnesses are clearly colluding together - this wouldn't be necessary if the defendant had nothing to hide

based on what you have posted here you should be found guilty of conspiring to pervert the course of justice

wonderwoman2012 Fri 15-Feb-13 13:33:03

Fair enough

Will duck out without another word, just wanted some of the no smoke without fire people to stop and think for a second.

Not the best taste forum to be on anyway.

Unlike the case of this poor women witness statements are not the only defense evidence in my example. All these cases are different and should be viewed on there own evidence.

I know in the case where I was the 'victim' the assault and being in court where to much for me. The defense team barely had to speak to be. I could not articulate what happened. He was only found guilty because of medical evidence.

I am going to other forums to find some legal opinions and public opinions as interesting to find out the way a jury may think.

EldritchCleavage Fri 15-Feb-13 13:13:55

It is interesting to me that all the anger has focused on the QC. I know she carried out the cross-examination, but let us not forget she did so on the instructions of her client, the lying abusing bastard. HE told her it was all untrue, HE wanted to test the witness to the maximum extent possible to see if she would crumble and he could get off, HE persisted in those instructions throughout the witness's ordeal.

And in all offences against the person which are one person's word against another's with little other evidence, a full-on confrontation accusing the victim of lying is going to be a central plank of the defence. How could it be otherwise?

Finally, while I have no desire to be unkind to you personally wonderwoman2012, I think your statements on this thread have been misguided, over-simplified shite. Truly. And please don't extrapolate from your one experience to tell the rest of us what to think about abuse complaints and the people who make them.

wonderwoman2012 Fri 15-Feb-13 12:56:12

Forget where but I think I read it was Germany.

When they stopped compensation except for legal, medical or therapy. The reported cases of historical abuse went down by 70%.

True cases should be tried and hanging is to good for the guilty. Hung, drawn and quatered maybe.....

But cases should be investigated properly and common sense applied. Not a system that says people should go to court for a judge/jury to decide. The strain, stigma, mental health and money side of a year waiting to go to court are appalling.

wonderwoman2012 Fri 15-Feb-13 12:47:07

I know that by speaking out loud on here that I am open to well this.

However after nearly a year of this rubbish I need a voice.

If you have ever had your children interviewed by social services on there own with nobody they know present and a police officer saying not asking questions to you but saying horrid thing to you to try and convince you

(a) the accuser is telling the truth and

(b) you have also been abused in some way????

8 charges are not so many when the charges are spree out back to back over a 6 year period, apart from the last two. This is in order to get at least one charge dated right. To start with they were each over lapping over a 2 year period. A judge told cps this was mad, so they changed the time periods.These are charges that know span between when she was 8-14 years old. I can go for someone of 8 not being able to tell you the age/year they where abused but a 12/13/14 year old.

Not a date but a year. Surely you would be able to tell the police within a two year period?

This case like many other is stuck in a new all cases must know be tried system. Two years ago the facts would have stopped the cps going to court. Now Cameron says all must go before a court.

As for comp She is planning to sue privately why else go after someone you claim has molested you rather than the person you have claimed did far worse (not in any relation to this case separate allegation back in the day when I was friends with the accuser).

My relate has money her other alleged abusers have not, simple.

Only one thing worse than a child abuser. The scum that pretends they have been abused.

If I where all of you in the current press/political climite I would be thinking "There before the grace of god go I"

facebookaddictno9 Fri 15-Feb-13 10:55:36

I thought many of those convictions were guilty pleas? My understanding is the conviction rate at actual trial is about 17%?

I be really really really happy to be wrong about that

norkmonster Fri 15-Feb-13 09:59:21

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Fri 15-Feb-13 08:15:26

It's all bollocks. If she starts some vendetta against the investigating officer she'll end up in serious legal trouble herself, I suspect. Horribly stressful for the person trying to do her job too, mind.

facebookaddictno9 Fri 15-Feb-13 08:12:29

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ratbagcatbag Fri 15-Feb-13 04:50:41

Should say every weekend, not every night. Doh

ratbagcatbag Fri 15-Feb-13 04:49:57

And I'm sorry your comment regarding not resting until every case the investigating officer has been looked at again is horrific, you wish to reopen old wounds for many victims as part of your witch hunt. Lovely.

Interestingly as said up thread if you relative confesses then what, oh wait I guess it would be the same as my family, I'm
Still a liar but of he admitted something he hadn't done then he'd get less of a sentence.

ratbagcatbag Fri 15-Feb-13 04:43:23

Sorry wonder woman but you sound just like the ones who tried to get my
Uncle off too. In historic cases it is accepted that you cannot accurately remember dates especially as you were a child. I repeat absolutely that cps will only take a case if there is a good chance of conviction and the victim will hold up/ be taken as credible. I was made very clear from
The beginning that it wouldn't be an easy path and cps donor always result in charges. Eight is a huge amount so they must've bloody certain on it.

Oh and witnesses that have been disclosed to earlier are all part of the cause, I had the same, it means that through your life you have consistently told your story. Agree with others it sounds like you want a witch hunt to get this woman. Trust me, in an historic case you have to be bloody certain with what you're saying even if the dates are wrong, they go over and over it.

Luckily for me the people who didn't believe me didn't have much bearing on the case and my uncle still resides on the sex offenders register even now.

Finally, compensation, yep got some of that. 8k, 8k for being abused everynight for eight to ten years (can't remember exact dates), 8k for the self harm in my teens as I couldn't handle it anymore. You could have kept every penny as I know what I'd have preferred.

wonderwoman2012 Thu 14-Feb-13 23:53:00

We I am no lawyer just a uneducated mum trying to make sense of why the law is being so horridly abused. All in order for some evil person to claim compensation.

The police who I may add I have until these events away thought did a wonderful and diffcult job. None of us have ever been arrested before so as a family we are in shock and learning the law as we go.

If what we have and are going through is normal the system has to change.

I was thinking the other day if my daughter was abused the thought that this police officer was running the case would be appalling. If this was a case of a guilty man then at court it would be down to whose witnesses preform better. Not the case hear but think. The police have not tried to find any real evidence.

Just thought that is not totally true. The took his laptop, mobile and dvds. All of which returned after months as family friendly.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 14-Feb-13 23:36:17

Slow I may be, but I can at least spell...

wonderwoman2012 Thu 14-Feb-13 23:33:48

Or the investigating officer?

wonderwoman2012 Thu 14-Feb-13 23:32:48

The land register can tell you when a person brought and sold a house. You can't be abused in a house years before or after a person lived there.

Are you a bit slow?

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 14-Feb-13 23:27:16

The Land Register cannot establish that a person was in a given place at a given time.
You are talking bollocks.

wonderwoman2012 Thu 14-Feb-13 23:23:35

Got to be a bit careful hear as you are aware but here goes.

Ok, so say you went on holiday to your holiday home last year and the police arrest you for punching a bar man. However the barman says that the assault happened in July. You however where at home 500 miles away at the time as your holiday was in May. And you had sold that holiday home in June (Land register)

Also he says you drove away in your green volvo however you sold that volvo five years before. (car papers)

Made up this but you get my point?

Also for real the police have not realised that I would have to be two years younger than I am and my sister one year older. Trust me we do know how old we are.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 14-Feb-13 23:11:35

I would be very interested to know what "legal documents" could categorically establish that historic abuse allegations are untrue. As a alwyer myself I cannot think of any category of documents which would be capable fo this. On this ground alone I find your assertions lacking in credibility, wonderwoman. it is not uncommon for family and friends of elderly defendants in historic cases to react with outrage against the accuser - even where, as I have seen in more than one case, the defendant later capitulates and admits the truth of the allegations.

wonderwoman2012 Thu 14-Feb-13 23:07:10

The police have not ask for a timeline or documents that is the defense team.

If the police did ask for this information or even bother to find this information themselves I would be happy. The police and cps are only working on witness statements. If they where to put the abuse allegations to one side and find out if the facts of the case are true then they would see what the rest of us can.

As witness about to commit perjury in court and even if a guilty verdict happened. She has told some very provable lies. For get defense witnesses there are legal documents that prove maybe 80% of what she is saying impossible.

She is going to prison.

The witch hunt as you call it is for the investigating officer. Personally I will not rest until every case she has dealt with is looked at again. If you or your family were ever interviewed by her you would understand. She has lied to people and not taken photo evidence when offered. Also not spoken to key witnesses (we believe in case they said something that will disprove the case). She is so convinced that the accuser is telling the true that she is blinded.

The police don't investigate these cases they build a case.

The first line (1a I think)of the police investigation guideline states that all avenues and evidence must be explored. In this case and others that has not happened.

Less abuses would walk free if the police did there job properly and didn't just rely on witness statements but looked for any factual evidence as well. In historic cases the cps can go to court on a victim statement and what is called hearsay evidence. Weather this is wrong or right I am not to say but as there is factual evidence in this case that is available to them from public offices there is no excuse not to bother doing some research.

Would you all be happy if it was your husband/father/son/uncle going to court because Thresea May or Cameron says that all these cases should be tried no matter what.

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