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Grayling defending smacking

(1000 Posts)
seventiesgirl Sun 03-Feb-13 11:38:45

Never did him any harm apparently. The tory party are such a bunch of tossers. Whatever next?

Februaryfun Sun 03-Feb-13 19:22:46

When someone tells me they smack their child I lose all respect for them

It's unnecessary and nasty. There are other strategies a thinking adult can a lot that encourage good behaviour.

FlouncyMcFlouncer Sun 03-Feb-13 19:24:23

"In the UK the higher yours IQ and social class the less likely you will smack children."

Nonsense. Tell them that at Eton.

My opinions - FWIW. For some children, smacking is effective. If you wish it to be a deterrent, the child has to know it will happen, and for the child to know that, it has to have happened at some point. In other words, once you have smacked, you rarely need to smack again, because the precedent exists.

For some children however, smacking is not effective and another way has to be found, since there is no point using a deterrent that doesn't deter.

My kids are now 22 and 16, and I smacked, when necessary, and luckily found it rarely necessary because they knew if I threatened it, they'd better stop or it would happen. And now, when they see small children being absolute shockers, they'll openly agree that a smack would do the trick nicely. And when I read out something atrocious and say 'why didn't YOU behave that way?' their reply is 'cos you'd have 'killed' us'. Now we all know I would not have 'killed' them, but it illustrates that the deterrent was effective.

AnnIonicIsoTronic Sun 03-Feb-13 19:28:39

I was smacked as a child. Memorably - thrashed with a leather belt by my babysitter shock . Even aged 6 I was thinking " this is more about you being scared that you screwed up and put me in danger, than about anything that I did wrong"

Pan Sun 03-Feb-13 19:30:01

This from balia four posts in."Erm...because it's wrong to hit people? "

Not sure how posters get beyond that.hmm

exoticfruits Sun 03-Feb-13 19:31:35

The fact that people can say 'it did me no harm' shows that it did. It is failure as a parent and shows the DC that those who are bigger and stronger can have their own way.

ArtemisiaGentileschisThumb Sun 03-Feb-13 19:31:37

I wouldn't smack my dog let alone my child. I just don't think inflicting pain, however brief, is a technique I want to use.

alemci Sun 03-Feb-13 19:37:45

I think I am inclined to agree with you Flouncy. I think sometimes people can be nasty to their children which may be worse than hitting them IYSWIM. Psychological bullying can be harmful as well.

Also I think sometimes parents want to be friends with their children. They are minors and you are in charge not them. Also why is it ok for them to hit you? or hurt teachers in the classroom.

marriedinwhite Sun 03-Feb-13 19:37:51

Agrees with *flouncymcflouncer*.

The belt Ann was a step too far, far too far and one I would never condone. A child should never had to live like that and never had to live in fear of a slap.

I don't condone physical punishment that is severe and I certainly don't condone physical punishment that is pre-meditated. That is why I don't for a second agree with Xenia that the higher the IQ the less likely it is to happen. Teachers for years condoned corporal punishment - not because it had an impact but because they enjoyed it and were too socially incompetent to deal with adults as equals; let alone children.

Premeditated punishment is disgusting regardless of class or IQ.

duchesse Sun 03-Feb-13 19:39:08

I was smacked a lot as a child for all sorts of reasons and I found it humiliating, degrading and unfair, especially since it was frequently for things my younger siblings had done wrong.

I am against smacking children, but I have smacked the 4 of them a handful of times. So few times I can actually remember each one and feel guilty for having snapped- because that's what it is.

It is fatuous to say "it never did me any harm" because there's no control Grayling who was not smacked in childhood to compare with.

Startail Sun 03-Feb-13 19:40:16

OK smacking is bad, but you lot still have not given me a working alternative for how to draw an ultimate line in the sand.

Several of you say you do smack in the end when the job just has to be done.

Taking toys off a child who doesn't give a monkeys about toys, who's whole environment is her toy box and her playground doesn't work. You can't live in an empty box. Believe me that's what is required to stop DD1 finding something to mess with.

Saying no toddlers or no music group to a 2-4 year old is pointless, they don't really care, It's mum who wants some human contact.

DD2 would have cared about her full day at nursery, but you don't pay £35 not to go.

By the time a child is 4 and doing every morning at pre-school they have to have know that somethings are not open for discussion. DD2 absolutely did because her sister had to get to school.

My two are 11 and 15 and they are delightful. DD1 is delightful by nature, despite her tendency to fiddle.

DD2 is delightful at school, utterly embarrassingly so. She pushes limits at home, but is quite happy to go to her room and calm down when she over does it. Now days she will even say sorry sometimes.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of smacking and I accept that morally it can't be the right answer. Practically here we've ended up with a happy, loving, peaceful house, where I never have to say no Ballet or I'm taking that lap top off you.

Yes, I still shout sometimes and I still haven't found the answer to getting help with house work, but as long as they still come up to me and DH on the sofa and demand a hug I don't care!

AmberSocks Sun 03-Feb-13 19:41:54

smacking is wrong,there is no way to justify it,you dont hit people,i dont care if it does no harm or lots,its wrong to hit.

ninjasquirrel Sun 03-Feb-13 19:42:45

alemci - no one is saying that it is ok for children to hit adults confused

As someone who was never smacked, the idea of doing it is so alien and bizarre. It's so obvious that it's unnecessary (as other people have said, nursery teachers manage fine...). Is there anyone who wasn't smacked themselves who suddenly decides that it's ok to hit their own children?

EauRouge Sun 03-Feb-13 19:44:16

"By the time a child is 4 and doing every morning at pre-school they have to have know that somethings are not open for discussion."

Maybe it's your expectations that need changing rather than the child's behaviour.

SolidGoldBrass Sun 03-Feb-13 19:45:35

I don't have a problem with the odd smack. But I also don't have a problem with the odd smack for an adult who is being deliberately obnoxious.

MiniTheMinx Sun 03-Feb-13 19:49:28

I think we should all smack Grayling, he just has one of those " smack me" faces.

alemci Sun 03-Feb-13 19:49:31

I think it's ok and I think our society has become too liberal. I think there is a huge difference between belting your child and the odd slap. It is a difficult one .

duchesse Sun 03-Feb-13 19:49:54

My oldest was Mr Tricky and I'd have been beating him to within an inch of his life if I'd used smacking as a form of discipline. And he still wouldn't have done the things I needed him to do.

Things like dragging heels in the morning routine you turn into a game/ competition if you have several children. Or you simply take them to school in pyjamas. He only did that once, and put his clothes pretty sharpish in the car.

Not getting undressed for the bath (aged about 6). Asked him about 5 times, with increasing forcefulness/ impatience. Then picked him up and dumped him in the bath fully clothed. It was a lot harder for him to get his clothes off wet and he never did that again.

Not picking his own stuff up despite frequent reminders (ages 4-adulthood --he still effing does it--) put all lying around stuff into large binbag and redeposit in his room/ put in cupboard under stairs. He was always more inconvenienced than I was by it.

Not tidying his room/ having it like a pig-tip despite frequent requests- all superfluous stuff removed and put into attic/ thrown away depending on what it was. He was actually relieved when I did this (had to do about 4 times as he was growing up) and now uses this as a way of tidying.

etc It doesn't have to be pain to work.

The ONLY times I have smacked is for example when he jumped into a road in rush hour to avoid a cute spaniel on the pavement. Luckily there was nothing coming by at that precise moment or the immediate consequence could have been more than a sore leg...

alemci Sun 03-Feb-13 19:50:43

remember the Enid Blyton Faraway Tree with Dame Slap. Don't think that would go down too well these days.

MrsOakenshield Sun 03-Feb-13 19:53:16

gosh, I do wonder how my lovely PILs managed to bring up 4 children into decent human beings without smacking once - in fact, the next time I see MIL I shall ask her and let you know Startail, as there is obviously a way if you can be bothered. I wasn't smacked - I was spanked. Full on, back-of-a-hairbrush spanked. And I tell you know, much as I love my mum, as soon as I realized that this wasn't the norm, even amongst my peers (I'm in my 40s), my opinion of my parents as parents went straight downhill and remains there to this day.

I have a 3 year old and a number of the things Startail mentions work fine with her, particularly the threat of cancelling a planned activity like swimming - but even if they didn't I would never ever hit my child. I can't quite believe that you think hitting (please can we stop calling it smacking, it is hitting fair and square) is better than removing a material object (for example) for a specified period of time? Your moral compass leaves me boggled.

HoratiaWinwood Sun 03-Feb-13 19:54:49

I can't search for the research as am on DH's work laptop and can't work out how to get an incognito window grin particularly since the search terms are as likely to bring up Fifty Shades as research papers. I first read about it in the Sunday paper last year or something and it really struck me. I will look again when I get on the PC I'm more familiar with (toddler nap and memory permitting).

I agree with the problem of the word "work" too. I don't want my children just to stop doing the naughty thing, I want them to know why they should stop, and modify future behaviour too.

I'm sure that if my DH smacked me every time I flick water at him from the bath I wouldn't flick water at him from the bath. But also I would fear him a wee bit, and respect him a wee bit less, and enjoy baths a wee bit less.

I overthink things. But what else does a child do in bed at night with nobody but the smacker to talk things over with?

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sun 03-Feb-13 19:57:37

I agree, the term 'smacking' is just used to make people who hit their kids feel less bad about what they do. It is hitting.

Iggly Sun 03-Feb-13 20:00:11

I find your thinking odd star. You won't take something away but you will hit?


Iggly Sun 03-Feb-13 20:02:39

Just to add the taking away thing only works for us if it is immediate. I wouldn't say no to things in the future as ds wouldn't understand it.

RSVP Sun 03-Feb-13 20:08:20

Once you include even occasional hitting in your parenting repertoire, then physical violence becomes an accepted form of behavior.

I think children register this and they become scared/intimidated/traumatised or go on and exert physical violence to others,most often their own kids, or both.

Conversely, if you have not been hit as a child by your parents then it's highly unlikely that you suddenly start to consider hitting as a legitimate form of behavior towards your own kids

PolkadotCircus Sun 03-Feb-13 20:12:39

Hmm I think there is a problem.

I think since smacking has been outlawed nothing has been put in it's place so an awful lot of children are growing up without discipline at all.As a generation we simply don't know how to discipline,nobody has taught us.

Smacking isn't ideal and before being a parent I always swore I'd never smack which I never did with my 2 eldest boys as they generally listen and you can reason with them.Dd however is a whole different kettle of fish as she's hard as nails.She went through a stage of pinching her brothers and I did tap her once to show her what it felt like as they simply would never strike back-she stopped.

Now said dd came back from a sleepover vile this afternoon and has been hollered at and had going to sleepovers taken away.She still continued to carry on appallingly,ruined tea and said some horrible things to her brothers,simply wouldn't stop.Time out the lot.Dp and I fell out due to the stress.Personally I suspect a controlled tap on the bum would have stopped things instantly but instead we had an afternoon of hell.

Shouting and threatening are imvho as bad as smacking and sometimes worse ditto not carrying through and doing nothing.If you turn a blind eye children feel uncared for and can suffer from low self esteem.I have read How to Talk-it doesn't work with dd and I suspect a lot of other spirited children.If anybody knows what exactly is the right way to discipline which works with 100% success do share.

I think due to the above a lot of parents take the easy route and do nothing,I've seen it time and time again and find it shocking as to how much parents let go.My mil was the laziest parent out,never smacked or disciplined at all.My sil is one of the most screwed up people I know who went completely off the rails and has pretty much ruined her life.

I was smacked,yes I was resentful however I am in a strange way grateful that my parents cared enough to keep boundaries,brought us up well and now I'm a parent I totally get why they did it.Yes I don't smack as a rule but to be frank I don't think my way of doing things is better and in some ways are far less controlled or successful.I also think some of my punishments will cause waaaay more resentment.

Funnily enough dd asked what happened to me when I was in trouble so I told her,she thought I was lucky and asked why she couldn't have a smack to get it over with- parents can't know that saying re screwing your kids up-tis oh so true!

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