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Abuse of hundreds of girls as young as ten covered up by police and social services

(259 Posts)
edam Mon 24-Sep-12 14:29:51

today's Times - sadly behind a paywall but you can see the first par here - has a major investigation into appalling, widespread organised rape and abuse of girls in South Yorkshire.

Not only did police and social services fail to help the girls, let alone prosecute the offenders, they actually charged victims and their parents - one girl was charged with using drugs, while the men in the room with her went free, while one father who tried to get his daughter back was charged with racial harassment, ffs. AND his poor daughter, who had been drugged, was charged with assault. Another parent was charged with breach of the peace, another girl - only 13 - was arrested for a public order offence and convicted, while the men went free.

It beggars belief. The Times has seen more than 200 confidential documents from Rotherham detailing the crimes which were often not investigated - even though police and social services knew full well who the perpetrators were. But they were more concerned with hushing up the heritage of the offenders - Pakistani, Kurdish, Iranian and Kosovan gangs and families - than investigating hideous crimes.

In one case, police in Bristol rescued two girls who had been kidnapped but South Yorkshire police (where they lived) didn't even question them.

Neither the police nor the council apologised, btw. Oh no, the council just says ofsted think they are great and 'some work with individuals did not lead to court cases for a variety of reasons'. S Yorks Police say now they have eight officers looking into child sexual exploitation and they are 'a leading force in safeguarding vulnerable children'.

achillea Fri 28-Sep-12 20:07:44

I don't think race is relevant. They are a gang, that is all. In the same way as the satanic paedophiles were a gang. It makes no difference to the children who these people are, we need to focus on why it was allowed to happen and what the F the police, health, and social services were doing about it when those children so clearly needed help.

We won't learn anything if we focus on which continent the paedophiles came from.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Fri 28-Sep-12 20:22:49

Race is relevant. These are almost exclusively Asian gangs which focus on almost exclusively white girls. How can it not be an issue? confused. Isn't it partly because of the attitude that some of these men have towards Western women and girls that this is happening? The problem that those denying this have I guess is that are afraid that it will be used as a red rag to the bull of racism by certain elements of British society. When I was about 15 my friends and I were assaulted on a fair ground ride by a group of Asian lads. It hasn't made us hate and fear all Asian men of course.

But it is only part of a terribly sad, sick and complex problem, a major one I think is the utter sexualisation of every aspect of life in this country, and the slithering and creeping of porn into society. Those who believe there is nothing wrong with porn are wrong, in my opinion.

As for the rest of it - the attitude of the police and SS - that baffles me completely. How can they sleep at night?

Extrospektiv Fri 28-Sep-12 20:33:42

ATPM- too right. That's why we need more sexual self-control. Teaching abstinence until marriage as the best way to live in schools, focusing on the responsibilities of both genders and particularly BOYS for a change instead of the old-fashioned misogynist routine of blaming girls for wearing a short skirt when it's the boy that chooses to approach them, ask to go with them (or not in rape), take all their clothes off and penetrate them.

And then teaching contraception as well, before the "ab-only doesn't work" crowd come on. That would be a start.

Ending pornification and the war on women by sex-crazed men will be difficult with the decline in moral values that has led more men to refuse to exercise any decency and more women and teenage girls to acquiesce to men's sexual fervency. More self-control on both sides would really improve life.

achillea Fri 28-Sep-12 20:37:12

The ethnic origin of the paedophiles is just one part of it. If they were white british we wouldn't be discussing their ethnic origin at all. I'm not sure I know any ethnic groups where forced sex with underage girls is acceptable.

What is interesting is that there is a wall of ineffective communication that seems to happen when children talk to the police about their experiences.

There is a history of poor child protection practices in these areas and this is what they are looking into now. Again.

edam Fri 28-Sep-12 20:38:24

Traditional Asian families tend to be in favour of abstinence until marriage... not working out too well for the men in these gangs, is it?

Paedophiles come in all races and nationalities but when the perpetrators of gang rape are Asian, it seems the authorities have been only too happy to silence the victims rather than prosecute the criminals.

edam Fri 28-Sep-12 20:39:53

If the perpetrators in the Rotherham cases were White British, the council wouldn't have written a report saying ooh, we can't discuss this openly, it might harm community relations - and refused to investigate, to protect the victims, or to prosecute the offenders. Race is an issue in these particular cases, I'm afraid.

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue Fri 28-Sep-12 20:43:18

I don't think it's true at all that traditional Asian families are in favour of abstinence. My experience living in such a country was that there was extensive use of prostitutes by men.

Women were expected to be virginal of course, so the prostitutes would tend to come from a different area where the stigma would be less.

achillea Fri 28-Sep-12 20:44:39

Yes but we need to be clear what type of issue it is. Race has been the reason police have used that they failed to investigate sooner (although I still don't see the connection), but it is not an issue to say that 'that's what these people do'.

It has been used as and excuse, possibly, by the police but a rather pathetic one.

Extrospektiv Fri 28-Sep-12 20:46:30


Traditional radically Muslim Asian families tend to be misogynistically "in favour of abstinence", scare quotes justified by the fact they don't care if BOYS fuck who they like but will go to violent extremes to control girls.

BME families, moderate Muslims, Hindus, Methodists, Anglicans and traditional Catholics are far better at promoting abstinence for boys and girls alike without threatening to kill or maim their daughters if they fall short.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Fri 28-Sep-12 20:46:46

No, not schools in particular! And teaching abstinence is a non-starter. When I was at school however I don't remember any of this sexual pressure. IMO a real overhaul of society needs to happen (yeah, I know - as if?) Everything, including the media, magazines, films, entertainment needs to change. Children have sex blasted at them from every single angle from a very young age. I know, I know, it's already out there now and can't be changed sad

And if it was a white gang grooming predominantly Asian girls, then yes, race would be an issue as well.

Extrospektiv Fri 28-Sep-12 20:47:02

X post Skippy, precisely my point.

edam Fri 28-Sep-12 20:47:55

by the police AND the council inc. social services, shamefully.

And yes, by 'in favour of abstinence' I mean publicly - not necessarily what goes on in reality. Similar to Victorian England where outwardly respectable upper and middle class men preached morality while nipping down to St Giles of an evening to shag little working class girls.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Fri 28-Sep-12 20:48:34

I think there are aspects of the culture of Asian communities in this area that play a causal role in this type of offending. These men are culturally conditioned to have embrace the double standards skippy refers to. Their "own" women are virtuous, the repository of family honour; and woe betide them if they ever betray those standards. White women are loose, they drink, dress provocatively and are generally not chaperoned by male relatives and thus fair game. I am not suggesting all men from these communities think like this, but it is a denial of reality to ignore the fact that many do.

edam Fri 28-Sep-12 20:49:24

ariel - very true that our society is far too sexualised. And commercially sexualised - people are making millions of pounds out of selling sex to our children, in products, images and words.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Fri 28-Sep-12 20:49:40

edam is spot on - the morality is very simialr to the Victorian double standard, which lead to incredible sexual repression of "respectable" women, and appalling exploitation of prostitutes.

edam Fri 28-Sep-12 21:00:16

Thanks Karlos.

I am aware that anecdote does not make data, that individuals do not represent an entire population, and that paedophiles come from all nationalities and ethnicities... but there are some areas where some Muslim men have an arrogant and hostile attitude to white women. Probably to Muslim women as well but that that'd be out of public view. As a teeanger, I lived briefly in an inner-city area where 90% of the residents were of Pakistani heritage. My sister and I, in our very boring, conservative school uniform, were frequently the targets of evil, sexist comments and harassment. Just being on the street alone, without a man 'guarding' us, was enough to provoke some of these bastards.

Fortunately the time one of the bastards tried to assault my 14 year old sister, our dog happened to have got out (he was a stray we had re-homed). Dog heard my sister scream and came running, knocked the guy flat and stood over him, drooling and growling. <proud> I do hope that frightened the man out of ever trying it on again.

Extrospektiv Fri 28-Sep-12 21:05:21

So: safeguard prostitutes, criminalise buyers, teach the Muslim boys respect and real abstinence not hypocrisy?

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Fri 28-Sep-12 21:13:56

Not just Asian boys, all boys. Asian boys are part of British society and should not have separate rules. And teach young girls that there is far more to life and ambition and success than having men lusting after you. Teaching abstinence won't work though - it's gone too far. Besides, why should people abstain until married?

Excuse the phrase "lusting after you" if it sounds like I am a prude - I'm really not! When I was a teenager I wanted to be fancied as much as the next girl. However, we weren't expected to just be doing it, or dressing like a hooker in order to fit in. And I'm only 37.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Fri 28-Sep-12 21:17:21

And also, I would also hesitate to hail the DM of being among the only ones to have the courage to speak out against this when they print pictures of half naked women and close ups of women's cleavages every day of the week. They are also to blame.

Extrospektiv Fri 28-Sep-12 21:17:24

I believe in teaching abstinence before marriage to all young people! It was just that Asian attitudes were being discussed on this thread and their males in particular, so I stressed the point that good teaching of boys from communities where such a double standard subsists could eradicate sexist "false abstinence" and promote real abstinence.

Extrospektiv Fri 28-Sep-12 21:20:00

I also believe that the need for separate Muslim schools would be lessened if teachers made it clear they would not refer children to family planning clinics behind their parents' backs or keep secrets for them about sexual activity.

Anti-traditional attitudes to sexuality and subversion of parental morals are one of the main reasons they want separate schools. I know young and older Muslims, it has came up several times. They have fought and won in multiple areas to prevent explicit sex education and would really want to prevent teachers keeping secrets about their sons or daughters being sexually active. This is something Gove could help with, not by legislating, just by speaking out against it.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Fri 28-Sep-12 21:31:34

Yes I know what you believe, Extro! However, and I mean no offence, your opinion I imagine is influenced by religious belief, and in this country in 2012, it is unrealistic to think this might work. I am talking about far more than teaching "abstinence" - the sexualisation of culture has spread to such an extent that it would simply teach children that sex was some holy grail of human existence which they need to get as soon as they possible. I am "just" talking about stopping showcasing sex as the be all and end all of human existence and promoting achievement of ones potential instead. I thought during the Olympics things might be changing, but sadly I was deluded.

achillea Fri 28-Sep-12 21:45:04

if teachers made it clear they would not refer children to family planning clinics behind their parents' backs or keep secrets for them about sexual activity

The guidelines are there to protect the child. Children should always turn to their parents for guidance but sometimes their parents don't want to know and the authorities have to step in to support them.

Rowanhart Fri 28-Sep-12 22:34:58

As someone who went to Cathilic school where abstinence was preached, no contraception and pro life videos were shown, there is one thing I know for certain...

It does not work. Teenagers still have sex. They just may have no one to go to to discuss safety.

As a result STI rates and pregnancy were higher. I have no don't abortion rates were higher too.

On this one staff at the school did a diservice the girls in their care.

Extrospektiv Fri 28-Sep-12 23:10:30

It would work better if done properly. Most abstinence education seems to be sexist, based on the idea that girls are at fault if sex does occur. An abstinence curriculum that focused equally on both sexes and challenged misogynist stereotypes at the same time would work for a LOT more young people. It's also disturbing when people defend anti-parent schools on a parenting site.

Ask yourself, if you were a Muslim parent in London, would you want some very sexually experienced still-unmarried woman around 40 who values "sexual pleasure and exploration" to be "approachable" to your children and refuse to disclose what they've been discussing? Who says that parents have no rights to know because they should not have "control" over young people's bodies? (big difference between control and simple notifying/refusing to engage them in secret conversations.)

Family values are impeded by anti-family schools and teachers.

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