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baby monitors give off deadly radiation

34 replies

papaya · 19/02/2006 21:58

in news of the world there is a section saying (p39. Feb 19th)

"...babies are being put at risk of cancer by hi tech cot monitors which emit deadly radiation.....consumer group Powerwatch has urger parents to ditch digital (DECT) monitors...."
goes on to say that "emissions, even if the monitor is not in use can reportedly reach 6 volts per metre - twice as strong as those found within 100 metres of mobile phone masts...."
...."lab tests have also linked the radiation to potentailly fatal brain tumours, breast cancers, headaches and disturbed behaviuor patterns in kids...."

Can anyone offer any reassurance to stop me feeling bad about having used a digital monitor for the past 13 months.....!!!

---------------------

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Twiglett · 19/02/2006 22:00

what research did they quote

for reassurance ..bear in mind you read it in NOTW which makes it money through disseminating unsubstantiated research

will have a look

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Nbg · 19/02/2006 22:01

I really really would not worry about it.

Firstly it came from NOTW!

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Nbg · 19/02/2006 22:01

x posts Twigg

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papaya · 19/02/2006 22:05

I did think to myself oh its only in NOTW Twiglett, but its still a bit worrying all the same iykwim, i have also googled but can't really find anything regards this subject??

The article only mentions lab tests, with Alasdair Philips reccomending they are not used, it goes on to say that the baby monitoring mats (breathing and temp ones) can onit 120 times the safe level of the 0.05 volts per metre.....i guess that could also be said for many digital apppliciances though?

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papaya · 19/02/2006 22:07

god my spelling has gone out of the window this evening....

i must say nbg i normally don't worry....esp as DD often plays with my mobile phone

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Twiga · 19/02/2006 22:15

Wouldn't claim to know anything on this subject but it's just another thing to beat ourselves up about as mums (mind goes back to recent article on news claiming dummies might help prevent cot-death, we dont use them = panic!), really annoys me when tabliods sensationalise this stuff. Given that it's notw I'd not worry overly. I think at the end of the day there's no winning on subjects like this as things like breathe mats are supposed to offer peace of mind yet there is always some tabliod story to offer a neg view.

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Twiga · 19/02/2006 22:20

sorry about slightly ranty post - we've just invested in a set of digital monitors so feeling a bit sensative . Also have mastitus again so feeling crap and grumpy!

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DominiConnor · 19/02/2006 23:30

This is just garbage.
The "scandal" is that Brits lack the basic education to be able to see through this.

"Radiation" is a word much loved by the media, egged on by greens. You can indeed kill people with microwaves. The same way you can kill them with carpets, you have to try really quite hard. Radar was actually partly born from an attempt to produce a death ray in the 1930s. Various governments have been trying ever since, the technical term for the result is "failure".

I like the reference to phone masts, which generate really pathetically small amounts of energy for the job they do. Even so the NOTW fails to mention basic physics. It's called the inverse square effect. At 100 metres, the radiation density is 10,000 times less than 1 metre away. Really basic GCSE physics.

You can induce headaches by microwaves, but only by quite literally heating it up to an uncomfortable temperature. If your equipment is getting that hot, then it's a fire risk that should be nowhere near your baby.
Indeed the only reputable effect anyone seems to have found is that blood flow to the brain seems to be mildly increased, with slightly beneficial effects.

If you've got a mobile and a microwave oven then your baby is being exposed to this stuff all the time. The Radars of aircraft flying over also produce easily measurable doses.

Nothing is quite 100% safe, but household RF gear is not in the top 100 threats to your baby. Smokers cause far more babies to burn to death than RF, but we don't see that at all do we ?
That because media types want a "balanced" coverage of the "smoking debate".

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Hallgerda · 20/02/2006 08:37

papaya, I agree with DominiConnor - don't worry about the baby monitor. For added reassurance, my three all survived.

I would however be careful about letting your baby play with your mobile phone - a friend's baby wrecked her DH's phone. They claimed on the insurance (which would be funny only it puts up the premiums for the rest of us...)

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hunkermunker · 20/02/2006 08:38

Bollocks, IMO.

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Blandmum · 20/02/2006 08:42

Absolute scaremongoring cobblers. And totaly agree with DC that they are relying on people not understanding the science.

How amny parents are reading this, worried, as they puff on a fag, I wonder?

The concept of relative risk is never put over.....much better for sale to whop people up into a frenzy.

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Heathcliffscathy · 20/02/2006 09:14

I still unplugged ds's monitor when we went to bed last night (we sleep next door and don't use it through the night, just when we're downstairs) as imo the less voltage that ds is exposed to while he sleeps the better.....and this prompted me....and also have to admit to having been scaremongered!

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SHHHH · 20/02/2006 09:46

sophable dh & I are the same..I see what everyone is saying but I still don't like what is being said in the papers..esp the bit that the manufacturers are NOT able to prove otherwise....The same was said about cordless phones last week...Needless to say dh & I are are looking at changing to an anologue monitor until proof is given..Just need to find one as the markets now seems saturated with digital ones..

As parents we all have a choice to protect our littleones no matter how we choose to do it. Call us over the top but it's our decision.BTW dh & I are like this with everything that concerns dd...!!!

Anyone know of analogue ones..?

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CoolTurkey · 20/02/2006 10:01

Too true DominiConnor, dangerous things, carpets

ds, at a few months old, used to roll into the corner of the room, lift the carpet, pick off a bit of underlay then choke on it. Found and prevented him choking more than once.

Gimme microwaves any day

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DominiConnor · 20/02/2006 16:41

Hallgerda is right about mobiles. Nearly all models have an aerial that can be unscrewed ,and swallowed.

Also some batteries contain bad levels of nickel and cadmium, both toxic. Hard to chew through, but as we all know kids can exhibit great patience and skill in this.

However you can't "prove" that something is safe.
Partly of course because nothing is 100% safe, and of course because you can't prove a negative.
We do know that literally billions of people have been exposed to large amounts of RF over the last 50 years, and yet see little in the way of effects. People have been killed by microwaves, typically when they've walked in from of a military radar, but other than that surprisingly little.

But that's not proof radio gadgets are safe. How could you prove it ?

The same was said about cordless phones last week...
Archur C clarke said that any sufficiently advanced technology cannot be distinguished from magic. You can't see RF, so that scares people in much the same way that before we knew about germs, they blamed witches for the death of cattle.

dh & I are are looking at changing to an anologue monitor until proof is given
At the risk of getting technical, a "digital" signal is not inherently different from an analogue one. A broadcast saying "1 2 3", is not very different from "woo woo woo".

The reason digital technology is used is that it allows you a clearer signal for a given power output. Thus on average you'd expect analogue gear to give off more radiation.
Also digital gear is more modern, that means that the bad things are less likely to occur.

Of course it may be that the particular frequencies used by digital kit is particularly bad in some way, but the odds are against it.

My bet is that the biggest risk is not microwaves, but fire. For any gadget there is a chance it will short circuit and burn.
Older gear is likely to be marginally less safe.

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hte · 05/03/2006 17:31

Dear DominiConnor,

Firstly, I do agree that the word "radiation" isn't that right word to use in this discussion. I recommend calling it "electro-magnetic fields" or EMF for short.
Apart from the above, I strongly disagree with you. It's clear that your knowledge on this subject is outdated.
As parents, naturally you want to protect your children but when it comes to electro-magnetic fields generated from appliances such as fx. DECT based baby alarms, you just aren't being given the info to make sensible descisions and take action to protect your kids.

Why am I writing this?:
My name is Henrik Eiriksson. I'm 33 and I've been studying this area intensively for the past 4 years. I've been going through the research, collaborating with scientists and as a software specialist I know alot about digital communications. You can email me at:
[email protected]

The reason that I got into this area is because my parents got sick from a 3G basestation installed 28 metres from their living quarters, and with the main beam pointing right at them at body level.
They were forced to move to a conservated area without masts in the vicinity and have since (mostly) recovered.

Back to DominiConnor's post...

In your post you claim:
"You can induce headaches by microwaves, but only by quite literally heating it up to an uncomfortable temperature."

The idea that microwaves only produce adverse health effects by thermal heating is flawed.
To our bodies as a whole, man-made electro-magnetic fields far stronger that those natural electro-magnetic fields we have evolved in, are simply: pollution.
Natural electro-magnetic fields are extremely weak and random (noise-like) in nature - they have been around us like that for billions of years and we have evolved to withstand them.
Electro-magnetic fields (I'll refer to them as EMF onwards) from cellphones, cellphone-masts, household RF kit such as DECT phones and baby alarms are millions of times higher than the natural EMF our bodies have evolved to withstand.

You claim:
"We do know that literally billions of people have been exposed to large amounts of RF over the last 50 years, and yet see little in the way of effects"
I say you are incorrect.
Only 20 years ago the most powerful sources of EMF were public TV and radio transmitters and adverse health effects and abnormal cancer rates were found in the vicinity of these transmitters. Probably the best documented case is that of the Vatican radio that was scentenced in court in 2005 to have caused cancers in the vicinity \link{http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4531247.stm\Read more here} .

We ARE seeing a massive reaction to this on a global scale. It's a "boiling frog" type scenario where our bodies can offset the effects of this EMF pollution for some time, until exhaustion starts to break us down. Have'nt you noticed the stress epidemic? depression wave? what about sleeping drug prescriptions going up 60% since 2000? Explanation follows.

The old analog radios are disappearing and today there are digital transmitters everywhere.
You fail to see the difference between the types of signal emitted then (50 years ago) and today - it's not just about signal strength.
The difference is in the radio signals "modulation". Modulation is a method of encoding information into a radio carrier wave by "sculpting" it in a certain way. Old radio transmitters produce "soft" randomly fluctuating patterns in the carrier wave and digital modulation produces "sharp" pulse-like patterns in the radio signal.
So what is the difference? Well, the question that the wireless industry never cared to ask is: "how do these sharp-cut digital radiowaves look to a living cell"? Cellphones, basestations, DECT's etc. have NEVER been pre-market tested from a biological point of view. Instead the industry just assumed that complex electro-chemical living organisms like humans somehow were immune to this new type of digitally modulated EMF. Yet the wireless industry acknowledges that:
\link{http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9605/16/cellphones/index.html\cellphones disturb pacemakers}
\link{http://www.cit.cmu.edu/default.aspx?id=331\cellphones disturb aircraft equipment}
The difference between pacemakers, aircraft equipment and your brain is that pacemakers and aircraft equipment are electrically shielded and your brain is not. There is just a layer of skull between a cellphone and your brain so why is all this effort going into protect machinery and not your precious brain? Good question.

Within the last 10 years scientists have been asking that exact question and have come up with some surprizing results.
In a nutshell, what happens is this:
The cells in our bodies are constantly reacting to their surroundings, both chemically and electrically. Our cells have evolved within the natural EMF of this planet (weak and noiselike) so that acts as the cells "baseline". If you place a cell within a non-random EMF as fx. a precisely pulsing cellphone signal, then within 1 second of exposure, the cell goes into a "stress mode" and starts producing stress-reaction signal chemicals. This is a simple survival mechanism and has a short-term beneficial effect because it mobilizes the bodies "fight-or-flight" mechanisms but in the long run (with chronic exposure) it will lead to exhaustion and the onset of dangerous stress and disease. EMF exposure problems begin to manifest themselves by diffuse symptoms such as stress, fatigue, depression, sleep pattern disturbances, difficulty recovering from disease.
So I say, based on the science I've studied: EMF of a non-thermal level is a disease catalyst.
Of course, people are different so reactions take more or less time to become evident but I sure don't recommend subjecting children to chronic exposure such as constantly pulsing DECT transmitters. DECT transmitters pulse contantly even though no calls are taking place.

Most people react to the above with: "if research has been finding adverse health effects for a decade, then why haven't I heard about this?".
Another really good question.
Dr. George Carlo, the lead scientist of the 28 million dollar american research effort into cellphones and health explained it this way:
The government auctioned off frequency bands for cellphone use at enormous prices. The bids started in the billions and naturally alot of I-owe-you's were signed by the wireless industry. Government budgets are depending on revenue from telecommunications so in order to balance, they need to help the wireless industry expand. This is done through industry-biased legislation such as making sure that the public cannot object to cellphone transmitters "on a health basis". Now as the post-market scientific research is showing adverse health effects the government and industry are trapped together in a huge lie and a sea of denial.
Have you ever heard a industry spokesperson or a government official expand on their knee-jerk explanation: "there is no scientific evidence relating cellphones with [insert health effect here]" ?
They always get the last word in the media, call for more research despite all the existing research already incriminating them, and they never back any of their statements up with evidence or references to evidence.
Check out this link:
\link{http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/02/07/us_gov_wireless_auctions\US gov optimistic on wireless auctions}
and I recommend listening to this podcast with Dr. George Carlo:
\link{http://www.realham.com/arch/heal/Jan-12-2006-at-08-00PM---Heal_The_Cause.mp3<a class="break-all" href="http://www.realham.com/arch/heal/Jan-12-2006-at-08-00PM---Heal_The_Cause.mp3}" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">www.realham.com/arch/heal/Jan-12-2006-at-08-00PM---Heal_The_Cause.mp3}
(click the above link, or paste it into your media player to stream it)

You state:
"Indeed the only reputable effect anyone seems to have found is that blood flow to the brain seems to be mildly increased, with slightly beneficial effects."
I disagree. In 1994 and again, in 2002, Dr. Leif Salford from Lund University in Stockholm, Sweden found that non-thermal levels of EMF at intensities 1000 times under EU regulations caused a breakdown in the blood-brain-barrier. Blood vessels in the brain are specialized. They form a super-tight barrier that allows only certain body chemicals to cross into the brain-tissue itself. The swedish research discovered that non-thermal pulsed EMF causes leakage in the blood-brain-barrier allowing cancer-promoting toxins (from tobacco, pesticides, air pollution, etc.) to enter the brain from the bloodstream.
\link{http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/507112.stm\Link (from 1999)}
\link{http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2728149.stm\Link (from 2003)}

The blood flow increase effect you describe is believed to be caused by cells over-production of Nitric-Oxide when exposed to digital EMF. Cells producing Nitric-Oxide is a part of the cells "fight-or-flight" stress response to digital EMF (as previously mentioned) and Nitric-Oxide is known to function as a blood-vessel relaxing agent.

When you state:
"Also digital gear is more modern, that means that the bad things are less likely to occur."
What on earth do you mean by that?? Modern things are less likely to harm you - just because they are "modern"?

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flutterbee · 05/03/2006 17:41

OMG Someone really has too much time on there hands.

With all that in mind please remember that your child is more likely to be harmed by traffic in the road than anything mentioned here and I bet you never stop them from going near or using roads and vehicles.

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hte · 05/03/2006 21:49

"OMG Someone really has too much time on there hands."

Oh plenty, but I feel it's time well spent.
You should'nt take things at face value.

The message is simple here: keep digital microwave transmitters away from your kids head. Your kids brain cells are dividing rapidly and digital microwaves mess with that process.

"With all that in mind please remember that your child is more likely to be harmed by traffic in the road than anything mentioned here and I bet you never stop them from going near or using roads and vehicles."

It's okay, I'm used to speaking to brick walls but why don't you stick to the issue on this thread (pssst: DECT baby-alarms) instead of talking cars and roads?

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homemama · 06/03/2006 18:49

Just googled powerwatch and the BBC describes them as a pressure group commited to proving that electrical equipment causes ill health. It also said that the company disagree with the current medical thinking that the risk posed by household based equipment is low.
HTH

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ruty · 06/03/2006 18:51

i find your posts very interesting hte, thanks. I find it amazing that we use our children as guinea pigs, so it seems to me, on so many issues.

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Nightynight · 06/03/2006 19:08

interesting post hte.

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hte · 12/03/2006 13:44

hi homemama,

I know that Powerwatch director Alasdair Philips has close to 20 years experience researching the field and his word carries alot of weight. If you send them an email at:
info[at]powerwatch.org.uk
(replace [at] with @)
I'm sure they will explain their mission in their own words.

I've written Mr. Philips on the 3G transmitter health discussion where he provided me with valuable information.

The Powerwatch website is:
www.powerwatch.org.uk

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FrannyandZooey · 12/03/2006 13:58

I think it is a mistake to dismiss concerns about this just because it was in the NOTW and also because you feel it is just trying to make parents panic.

Domini, you said that it would make as much sense to worry about microwaves and mobiles. I do worry about those and I don't use either.

I couldn't follow everything in your post hte but thanks for sharing your opinion with us.

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flutterbee · 12/03/2006 14:19

hte - trust me you are not speaking to a brick wall, I read and understood everything that you posted, but that does not mean that I have to agree with it. If I had been a brick wall I would not have bothered reading your very lengthy post.

My comment on cars and roads was a just one in my opinion as what we are disgussing on this thread has not yet been fully proved, no matter how much you agree with it, it hasn't been proved, however the risk of death on our roads is 100% proved and accepted by everyone.
I just wanted to put the point accross that although we may be told that there is danger associated with something does not mean that you should panic as there are many more dangerous things in the world that we do every day.

And finally I shall post whatever I want where ever I want to as this is a public forum and there is no need to be so rude just because someone disagrees with you.

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staceym11 · 12/03/2006 15:11

i cant quite work out the panic, i know we do everything we can to protect our children, but even if we dont have one of these things, who's to say the person next door doesn't and their one wont hurt them!

i love my dd dearly and would never wish her harm, but she sees me with my mobile and wants to play, how can i say 'im allowed but not you' its just not right in my eyes.

i dont wanna be controvetial but all im saying is we cant wrap them in cotton woll and as things are moving on in technology etc newer and better (supposedly) things will come about and there will be something far more dangerous to worry about. enjoy your children while you've got them!

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