Saadia,Monkeytrousers and Peacedove...looking forward greatly to your comments on Abu Hamza's conviction.o

[moondog]

[moondog]

I did!
It was brilliant!!!!

[JoolsToo]

moondog - just read that Telegraph article you linked us to - excellent.

Oh! and stop stirring!

[moondog]

I'm n ot sure what E4 is or if I can get it.
It is the only tv I watch,so look forward to my allotted hour a week.
(Saw the trailer though-can't wait!)

[moondog]

JT,thought you knew I was a diehard Torygraph fan (despite loopy earth mother persona.)



I am not stirring.I am genuinely interested!

(The Sun's headline for tomorrow is 'Sling your hook!' rofl)

[JanH]

Did you hear The World Tonight , moondog? He is an innocent victimised pawn and he never said any of it, honest, guv.

[moondog]

Oooh I must listen to that.
Gah,suffering major media overload!
So much to read and listen to and think about.
Huge pile of papers by my bed I never get through.....

[JoolsToo]

is that really the SUN headline?

[JanH]

comments from the world tonight website here . Quite enlightening - esp this one:



Is that how it happened?

[peacedove]

Well, that is the judicial process, and if Abu Hamza has been spreading hatred against the Jews, or string and disseminating terrorism material, he has been rightly sentenced. Why wasn�t he warned or taken to task earlier, though?

We have to be sure it is for terrorism, and not liberation, though, because not too long ago, the West helped and encouraged camps in Pakistan for liberation of Afghanistan from the Soviets. To be consistent, liberation of Afghanistan, Palestine and Iraq from other occupiers should also be allowed. And why only in third world countries? The camps should be allowed in the UK and the US, and other freedom loving Western countries as well.

Janh that is not the way it happened. The Danish Muslims took up the matter with the Newspaper editor, the PM, the public prosecutor, and finally the ambassadors of uslim countries in Denmark, who wrote a letter on 12th October 2005. When that did not resolve the issue, the Danish Imams brought the matter to the notice of Muslims in other countries, and all along the diplomatic, and private talks went on.

As for the three additional pictures, they were not added by the Imams, but were already there in the dossier that had been submitted before the Imams had access to it. The details are in somewhere, but I have lost the link, and the Danish Imam has said he is ready to face the court over this issue.

[Blandmum]

You ask 'if' he has been spreading hate.

What is your comment on this quote of his

' Killing a Kafir who is fighting you is OK. Killing a Kafir for any reason, you can say it, it is OK - even if there is no reason for it '

Now I read this as saying it is ok to kill a non beliver who is fighting, or even those who are not. In fact you can kill them with no reason at all.

How do you read it?

[peacedove]

I would like to read the original sermons. What you quote is definitley grounds for sentencing.

[peacedove]

Janh As to the question why it took three months for the protests to grow worldwide, heer is an interesting analysis from network point of view.

Danish/ EU newspapers vs. the Islamic World - An Example of Network Failure?
12 Cartoons (Example 1, Example 2) posted in a Danish newspaper last September (10/30/2005) and thereafter caused a series of aftershocks which are felt now - 4 months later. Although the newspaper received a bomb threat right after the day of publishing and money was awarded for the execution of the cartoonist the real uprage just started this week with reports and reprints of the Mohammed cartoons all over Europe.

While we don't want to join the discussion on freedom of speech, making jokes about one's own God and the like, we would rather take a look at the network aspect of it. Although 11 amabassadors of islamic countries publicly protested about this and 5000 muslims marched through the streets of Copenhagen it took 3 months until this was fully recognized in the Arabic and international community. Why did it take so long, although media reported and all types of ICT's were utilized?

Let us take an "information diffusion" and "social network" perspective. One might argue that today social networks are so dense that information spreads quickly by any means (internet, blogs, wom etc), especially when the topic is potentially critical. According to our theories we would have expected that Arabic communities are very well connected so that news from Denmark rapidly diffused throughout the Islamic world. Also, we would have thought that ambassadors act as "information hubs" in their societies, and thus reactions would have occured much earlier.

So what happend to the "news" within the last 3 months? Did it take so long until a critical mass was built to react? Shall we assume that, based on powerlaw, it took 3 months to reach a consent within the strongest 20% of the Islamic community? Along these lines this would mean that 20% of the latter community gives us the feeling that the other 80% think simillarly. Is it really like that, or what might be other explanations for our observation?

taken from:

Complexity and Social Networks Blog

[Blandmum]

and here is a view he had on the rights of women

'Bring up your daughters to that manners [not to answer back] otherwise they going to be divorced in the first week of their marriage or slapped in the face '

Now for the life of me I cannot see how any context, short of saying ' I'm saying not to do this but....' this could be read as a simple statement that if women don't lease you, slap them.

[peacedove]

yep very extreme.

In my house I am the repressed and oppressed one.

Children, both boys and girls, shild be brought up with manners, and the ability to listen to others.

In marriage there is give and take.

What happens if the husband and wife want thinsg that ag=re diametrically opposite.

e.g. the husband wants to live in New York, the wife in London?

[poppadum]

well, if the wife does want to live apart from her husband, she has obviously been badly brought up, and should be taught to give and take.

Oh hang on , PD, you are talking about me. I have been an expatriate for the past ten years because my husband wanted to. We now plan to return to our hometown in the next couple of years because I want to. It's called compromise. See how that works?

I have no time for clerics of any religion telling us how to run our marriages.

[peacedove]

pappadam I have been meaning to say sorry to you, if I have called you a heathen. I don't remember it though, but still sorry.

Where in India are you from?

[uwila]

So, Peacedove, what is your opinion of Abu Hamza? Victim or terrorist? Or soething not quite so clear cut?

Also, Peacedove, I don't know you very well. Where do your views sit in the Muslim world? Would you consider yourself mainstream?

[poppadum]

PD, certainly you did not call me a heathen. But in a previous post, you used it to refer to Indonesia as "a previously heathen" country. I am afraid I have taken that to refer to all of us who do not acknowledge the Prophet. Am I wrong? I do find the use of the word "kafirs" and "heathens" very offensive. I know you didn't use the word kafirs, just saying.

I am from southern India, Bangalore to be precise.

[lars]

Just would like to add this guy gets what he derserves.

My father who died nearly two years would of been pleased to hear this verdict.

My dad was always going on about this guy, he was doing this for many many years without a batter of a eyelid from anyone. I did live in north London and these sort of radical views coming out of the Finsbury Moss by Hamza were a regular occurance.
What a joke, he didn't mind all the benefits he received from his western country and nor did his wife. Larsxx

[lars]

Just would like to add this guy gets what he derserves.

My father who died nearly two years would of been pleased to hear this verdict.

My dad was always going on about this guy, he was doing this for many many years without a batter of a eyelid from anyone. I did live in north London and these sort of radical views coming out of the Finsbury Moss by Hamza were a regular occurance.
What a joke, he didn't mind all the benefits he received from his western country and nor did his wife. Larsxx

[lars]

Just would like to add this guy gets what he derserves.

My father who died nearly two years would of been pleased to hear this verdict.

My dad was always going on about this guy, he was doing this for many many years without a batter of a eyelid from anyone. I did live in north London and these sort of radical views coming out of the Finsbury Moss by Hamza were a regular occurance.
What a joke, he didn't mind all the benefits he received from his western country and nor did his wife. Larsxx

[lars]

Sorry don't know what happened there. larsxx

[peacedove]

from what I have read of his quotes, he is a terrorist, but I would like to read more about him and of him. When did he go to Afghanistan? Where did he train? If he was with Azzam, then Azzam was involved in fighting the Soviets, and the West had agreed with him. If he fought in Bosnia, then that was a good cause, wasn't it? So where and when did he become the terrorist he is?

I don't think uwila you know my views yet. I have tried to explain, but I feel that there is often a quick reaction to my statements of facts, and not enough time is used to read or understand what I am saying. Or maybe I am not clear.

My views are mainstream Muslim, but they are my own.