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where's the thrtead about the green paper on sen? Statements to go?

(59 Posts)
grumpypants Wed 09-Mar-11 07:40:59

got to go to work, but are we discussing this? Link please if we are?

grumpypants Wed 09-Mar-11 07:42:06
here, but hasn't appeared on DfE website yet.

grumpypants Wed 09-Mar-11 07:51:04


HairyMaclary Wed 09-Mar-11 09:19:11

I've been looking for this as I missed most of the tv/radio commentary about it this morning. It's not published yet as far as I can see.

So far I am concerned that there will no legal requirement to provide any form of support if statements go. I'm hoping there is some form of replacement but unfortunately I doubt it.

meditrina Wed 09-Mar-11 09:23:45

There's also a thread in "Special Educational Needs" which people might like to keep up with, as it may attract a different group of posters.


ohmeohmy Wed 09-Mar-11 09:33:05

animula Wed 09-Mar-11 09:33:17

Heard this on the radio today and am shock.

Is that figure "1 in 5 children have a statement" correct? We have always had our dc at school in inner London, where you might expect high statement figures, and, frankly, the number of dc with statements in our children's classes always seemed (a) lower than that and (b) I always felt that there were a good few dc without statements who could have done with a statement and the support and funding that (sometimes) comes along with a statement ....

Anyone else here the discussion on R4 this morning? Was a bit aghast at the woman who swapped the word "labelling" for "statementing". Felt that wasn't helpful. Surely statement = support and funding (in an ideal situation) not "label"!

HecateTheCrone Wed 09-Mar-11 09:35:16

I heard about this on the radio this morning.

It is basically a sneeky way to screw us over. You can bet you bottom dollar than this is not about giving more money for the essential educational support of our children.


Mamaz0n Wed 09-Mar-11 09:59:52

i haven't seen the full paper but seen the headlines. I am wondering how they are going to reduce the number of children on the SEN register. Given how many parents fight and are refused despite their children being in great need of assista...nce, they are now looking to refuse even more.

quite how that helps anyone is beyond me. But i look forward to reading their reasoning.

ohmeohmy Wed 09-Mar-11 10:30:00

'Parents of children with
statements of SEN will be able to express a preference for any state-funded
school – including special schools, Academies and Free Schools – and have
their preference met unless it would not meet the needs of the child, be
incompatible with the efficient education of other children, or be an inefficient
use of resources. We will also prevent the unnecessary closure of special schools
by giving parents and community groups the power to take them over' This sounds to me like they can still refuse what the parent wants by siting 'inefficient use of funds' and that they can withdraw funds from special schools and expect others to run them or they close. Am I wrong?

ohmeohmy Wed 09-Mar-11 10:30:15

citing i mean

Mamaz0n Wed 09-Mar-11 11:44:36

exactly OHMEOHMY.

I can't see how that is different to how it is now.

Mumfun Wed 09-Mar-11 13:58:14

Hecate. Totally agree. They are dealing with a lareg group of parents that have had to fight and fight the system to get anything for their kids. And there is a background of budget cuts everywhere.

From my POV Im totally cynical about any changes - how will anything get better when cuts will affect the delivery of services everywhere. I just think they want to cut the numbers of SEN kids and therefore the cost. They talk about teaching not being good enough and special needs being a good excuse. Thats not what I see in our primary school at all.

You can just see the hand of a bright young Tory researcher here - such a huge growing cost on the Sate -lets see how we can address this - but in a smokescreened complex way.

One of the problems is there isnt enough SEN kids! Tony Attwood for example say that only half of people with Aspergers get diagnosed. Lots more kids could benefit by better diagnosis and better ongoing support - but they wont want that!

HecateTheCrone Wed 09-Mar-11 14:10:41

It's happened before.

Herts were buggers for it.

We don't have the money therefore the children do not have special needs.


HecateTheCrone Wed 09-Mar-11 14:13:21

You will find that only those children who are most clearly affected will get any help.

(Sadly, my children will come under that. Which is good news in a way for them. I suppose. hmm )

silverfrog Wed 09-Mar-11 14:16:14

I think the 1 in 5 number is relating to how many children have SEN, not how many have a Statement of Need - there is no way that 1 in 5 children have a statement, not the way LA's lie about them not doing statements any more, how a child has to be 3 years behind before being eligible, etc, etc.

form the bit quoted re: being able ot choose school, and compatible with effiient edcatione tc - is that not what the law already says? (well, maybe not for Academies, come to think of it, but we can already choose MS or SN school, and our preference has to "e considered" - just as is being proposed)

maypole1 Wed 09-Mar-11 15:02:06

I am glad to many parents who provide poor parenting or teachers who cannot teach Use this as a way of masking their own failure

I used to be a respite carer and I couldnt count on my hands the amount of times I was sent a child with "ADHD" and " couldn't be controled
hmm whilst staying at ours with robust rules and boundaries the otherwise out of control child behaved like an angle

And I am a firm believer that if you really have adhd o sum such thing you would struggle. With rules in whatever wedging and will not have the capeability to pick and choose when to play

My sister is in the process of getting my nephew statmented gurr love my sis to death but hand on heart its her poor parenting rather then my nephew being I'll

My sister has men in and out of her currently seeing a married man whom she has round the kids and my nephew spent the first six years watching her get knocked about she smokes drugs was seeing a drug dealer gose out most weekends leaving them with who ever will have them adhd I don't think so poor parenting yes

No all parents are like my sister but you also get the wet blanket parent which I have seen many a time being a respite carer

Once had a boy who would wee in the corner of his parents house and expose himself when they were out with him in the two years we looked after him I never had one cause to even raise my voice

No surprise her other two kids were pretty wild as well

But parents are so desperate to look at every other cause of their child behaviour other than how they are being raised

grumpypants Wed 09-Mar-11 15:46:52

omg maypole - am assuming your post is some sort of ill advised humour or irony?

HecateTheCrone Wed 09-Mar-11 16:10:44

No grumpy. It's true. There are parents who use adhd etc as an excuse.

It happens.

But it is bloody rare! AND these children are not the ones with the diagnosis!

You do not get a multi-disciplinary team diagnosing autism or adhd or whathaveyou, based on the sayso of parents. It is a long assessment process.

Those parents - and they do exist - who claim their child has adhd but the child is clearly just the victim of piss poor parenting (I say 'just', but really sad ) are not the same ones who have the child under the paed, or going to the CDC, or seeing specialists etc

Because the teams aren't stupid. They know autism from bad behaviour, they know adhd from out of control.

And a child with autism (I speak about autism because I know that more than I know adhd) CAN behave well. The idea that if you suffer from something like this you are out of control is laughable and it is rather alarming that a respite carer does not grasp this rather simple idea. Triggers. Meltdown. etc. A child with these difficulties CAN be an angel. Mine can be wonderful.

They can also smear shit on the walls, throw glasses at me and threaten each other with a knife.

And they can give me a huge hug and sit perfectly well in a restaurant.

And run across a road and nearly get knocked over.

And bend down to gently stroke the cheek of an infant.

And say they want to kill their brother.

And pick me a bunch of flowers.

And put the window through.

animula Wed 09-Mar-11 16:14:19

That's another scary part of the paper, though, isn't it?

From the report on the radio, it seems those teams are going to be replaced by the voluntary sector??????

Can that be true? Did I hear that correctly?

HecateTheCrone Wed 09-Mar-11 16:16:03

Oh no, they're not are they?

Great. Remove professionals who know what they are doing and replace them with people who don't.

Always the way to get the best results. <sigh>

Why don't they just come clean and say they want our kids back in the institutions, where they can lock them away and forget about them.

It's how it feels.

maypole1 Wed 09-Mar-11 17:19:09

really so wht are they currently giving my nephew a statement

his behaviour is wild he dose spit and swear but thats BECAUSE HES NOT BEING WELL PARENTED AT HOME

like i said i have worked for many years with the respite team and have seen and been in meetings were they want to to give respite to a child who has "adhd" and suprise surpise given some coundries and a robust rountine their behaving them selves

professionals only ask the question what teype of boundies do you give in the 5 years i was a respite worker u have never heard a parent say none

its all he wont listen to me he wont eat what i give him even the school cant handle him

well a school can only handle a child if at home they are given the right foundations i have done handovers were a child who would not dare swaer at me has said get in the beeping house to the mum and all the mum did was go in the house i mean am i on planet zog here

its always amazing in counties were parents are strict due to culture i wonder if 1 in 5 have these conditions i have no doubut that is real but i doubut the numbers

schools will always push for a child they cannot remove from the school to have a state ment as with out it they just have a naughty child with the staement they have the child plus extra money

i many cases i have argued with the school about pushing for a staement when its the parenting skills are lacking or given the schools ofsted report and the poor teaching that gose on if they raised their game the children might not actually need a staetment

sorry ladies but this has become a way now in wich poor parents escape their duties but simply say he has adhd also failing schools scamming more money

in some schools more than 45% of students have sen now unless your just very unlucky or an actual special needs school then i dont belive it as victor meldew would say

i like to see how many of these children would be labled if their was no money attached to them

all this dose is cloud the issue for children who really have special needs with good pareting and a good school aa child should not need not be sen but all to often no one wants to admit most of these children have nither

HecateTheCrone Wed 09-Mar-11 17:49:51

You do realise it actually costs schools money, don't you?

They have to put funding in from their own budgets to add to what the lea put in.

My children have full time 1:1 support. The lea funds 22 & 25 hours of that and their respective schools put in the rest from their budgets.

I'm not quite sure how that's better for them than not having to spend that money, but perhaps you could explain how that benefits them financially.

and how can you tell who is a bad parent with an out of control child who is out of control due to bad parenting and who is a parent who has a child with challenging behaviour and who is out of their depth and does not know how to parent that child and deal with the challenging behaviour?

I'm glad my children didn't talk or come out of nappies until they were 5 & 6 and who flapped, beeped and squealed their way through the day and smeared shit on their faces and up the walls and hit themselves, so that it is clearly autism and not my parenting.

Or perhaps if I had been a better parent...

grumpypants Wed 09-Mar-11 19:11:15

the voluntary sector is being looked at, from my brief reading, in terms of co-ordinating assessment and/or providing support and explanations to parents going thro it - I only had a chance to briefly flick thro it earlier, so excuse any factual errors. Statements to be phased out and a replacement phased in.

Am ignoring maypole - sorry. whole other discussion.

amberleaf Wed 09-Mar-11 20:10:20

I agree-ignore Maypole this is not the thread for that sort of 'discussion'

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