Philip Pullman - jealousy perhaps?

[JonesTheScream]

ok, so what's this all about?

Haven't read his books (not that I don't want to, just haven't got round to it yet!) but why this attack?

[tortoiseshell]

Do you know, I really don't like CS Lewis. I've read some biographies of Tolkien, and CS Lewis just comes across as a superior disloyal 'jump on the bandwagon' type. He and Tolkien were great friends until Lewis brought along Charles Williams, who Tolkien despised (Williams was very interested in the occult, and devil worship, and Tolkien was a strict Catholic). Lewis almost 'abandoned' Tolkien for his new friend which left Tolkien very betrayed. Tolkien also felt Lewis had 'stolen' bits from Middle Earth (and there are real similarities in the names etc), but Lewis hadn't taken the time and trouble that Tolkien had to build his world and there are lots of inconsistencies. The other big thing that annoyed Tolkien was that Lewis was very vocal in the 'Christianity is just fairy tales' until he was converted, and then over night began 'preaching' in his books, which Tolkien found very hard to swallow. And Tolkien totally didn't approve of Lewis' marital arrangements - his first partner was a lot older than him, and they never married, when she died he then met Joy Gresham who he persuaded to return to America, divorce her husband and then come back to marry him. Which isn't a reason for disliking his writing but is interesting within the context of the Christian literature he was writing!

Can you tell I don't really like him? Am definitely a Tolkien fan! I feel like he is more authentic in his writing.

[weesaidie]

I don't really get it. Absolutely love Philip Pullmans Dark Materials, the man is a fantastic writer. I haven't read any CS Lewis for years though so I don't know if he has a point or not.

I think he is probably over thinking it though. Even if there was racism and misogeny in the books they won't include it in the film and lets face it, children aren't going to pick up any weird subliminal messages are they?? They just want to see some adventure and magic.

He certainly didn't say it for 'publicity' though, as some of the 'comments' have suggested, he is not interested in that.

[weesaidie]

Mmmmm, I love Tolkein too. He really has created a whole world hasn't he?

I really want to read some CS Lewis to see if I can catch some his preaching, knowing me I'd probably skim over it without even noticing!

The man does sound like a bit of an arse though!

[motherinferior]

Pullman has been knocking Lewis for ages - nothing new on this one. I tend to agree with him, really.

[JonesTheScream]

Don't think it's for publicity either, just find the whole thing very weird.

Loved the CS Lewis books as a child, but any Christian symbolsim went way over my head. As a children's story I agree with you weesadie - kids just want magic and adventure, and as far as I could see then (and even now, if I'm being honest) that's what the Narnia books are about.

Maybe I've just oversimplified them - never really been one of those people into analysing things (especially books - if you enjoy it then fine, if you don't, tough IMO).

Just can't understand quite why he's being so vitriolic about it all.

[Tinker]

Not read Lewis but know lots dislike him. Re: the weird subliminal messages bit - kids would get them, surely, if subliminal?

Must admit, feel I want to read Lewis to see how/if it irks. But don't want to read it either.

[DinoScareUs]

Haven't read Lewis, love the Pullman books.

[Tinker]

Doubt it's jealousy, just pi$$ed-offness. Some schools ban Pullman on the grounds of his atheism.

[weesaidie]

Well I didn't really mean subliminal Tinker, wrong phrasing, I think.

I just meant that if there were certain religious messages there, as a child, I missed them! That is why I would be interested to read again to see if I picked up them now, as an 'adult.'

[weesaidie]

picked them up now, rather.

[Tinker]

Agree ws, would like to see if these things seem so obvious to an adult.

[monkeytrousers]

Isn't Shadowland's a good film though? Oh, I cry my eyes out!

[TwoIfBySea]

Maybe it is the cold I have that is befuddling my brain but where was the racism in L,W,W? I think that people are too quick to point racism, in fact any -ism out where most times it does not exist.

I am desperately trying to think where the racism would come into it. In fact I doubt mysogeny as well as Lucy was the main character and she wasn't exactly a frail little girl or anything. I always wanted to be either Lucy or Susan for the adventures they had!

[MiladyMarsLady]

do you think maybe Pullman is trying for a bit of publicity on the back of the Narnia films that are about to be released?


I'm thinking so........

[edam]

Christian message in LWW would be blindingly obvious to an adult - Aslan sacrificing himself but rising again. Don't think I got it as a small child but definitely when I re-read it a few years later. Seem to remember the Screwtape letters were quite entertaining - read them when I was a teenager.

Can't think of any racism (and my parents were pretty good at pointing out racism or sexism in books - I'm sure I used to really irritate the teachers by critique-ing Peter and blasted Jane). Definitely sexist - it was very clear that some activities were not for girls. Daughters of Eve and all that. But I'm sure Pullman is wrong about an absence of love - it's made pretty clear that that's what Aslan is about, IIRC.

Tried Philip Pullman as lots of people recommended them in 'here's another children's book which can be read by adults a la Harry Potter' style but found him rather dreary.

[monstrousmummy]

Don't think this is publicity at all.
And it's not new.

My dh met PP theree weeks ago. DH is a church minister and also got a 1st in english and particularly enjoys fantasy etc.

Anyway...PP has a major problem because CS Lewis is a christian platonist basically.
We think his problem with Narnia chronicles is that the children go to another world and have important experiences and the other world (narnia) becomes more important than the real world. In this sense they are great fantasy but from a christian perspective our most impotant expereinces are in reality...not 'other worldy'. This may be why he feels that they are not great xn material.

Well that's our ponderings anyway.

[hewlettsdaughter]

Don't think it's jealousy. Pullman does have a point.

Interestingly, I loved the Narnia books as a child - then pulled them apart as an English student - and now I've got far enough away from that to want ds to read them... (with me putting him right about the Daughters of Eve bits )

[acnebride]

I think Narnia has a very religious atmosphere, and (despite?) being in a very evangelical Christian phase when I read them at 11, ended up with a dual religion whereby I prayed to Aslan every night and thought of him as Jesus' brother. Was this what CS Lewis intended? But I certainly got the messages - Turkish Delight is bad; Turkish type people tend to be bad because they are set up to worship an evil demon, but if they happen by accident to do something good, they are in fact worshipping Aslan, and they certainly can tell stories; women who wear tights are going straight to hell, or anyway, not to heaven.

This is unfair. i still think the narnia books are terrific adventures and do convey some of the joy of religion as well as the most revolting aspects of CS Lewis's era.

[motherinferior]

The racism is predominantly in The Horse And His Boy, where the lovely white people stride magnificently through the sub-Arabian hordes and their hook-nosed Viziers, and where Shasta proves in fact to be a Suitably Aryan Boy.

[Passionkiller]

Loved CS Lewis as a child and loved Dark Materials recently.

I'm just going to not think about this. Saunters past whistling.

[acnebride]

yes MI you're absolutely right.

In theory my favourite is Voyage of the Dawn Treader but ackcherly it's Prince Caspian.

[motherinferior]

Also sexy women are Evil Witches and should be distrusted as they whisk you away to tie you to chairs and/or stuff you with sweeties.

[marthamoo]

Was talking about this with a friend today - I hadn't heard anything about it. It's made me want to re-read the Narnia books because I adored them as a child - the stuff PP is describing flew straight over my head - I just thought they were fantastic adventure stories and cried buckets when Aslan died (that bit is so awful). I doubt I will re-read them though - so many books, so little time and all that

[marthamoo]

But that is true - MI, I'm dead sexy and I'm always tying people to chairs.

[ruty]

i love both pullman and narnia books, tho never like any other cs lewis stuff. Any christiam symbolism definitely went over my head too, i just though they were wonderfully magical stories. Maybe if i read them now i'd see things differently, but they weren/t written fo adults.