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The Benefits cap

(130 Posts)
sarah293 Sat 09-Oct-10 17:25:57

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violethill Sat 09-Oct-10 17:39:56

You can rent 3 beds for £800?

Bloody hell I'm envious. You'd get a flat for that where I am!

sarah293 Sat 09-Oct-10 17:43:38

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violethill Sat 09-Oct-10 17:45:57

Yes, we need more social housing.

We also need people to limit their families to what they can afford, whether they buy,rent privately, or want social housing.We're in for tough times, and that's how it is.

huddspur Sat 09-Oct-10 17:47:30

I think the government is arguing that you shouldn't have a large family if you can't afford to provide for them yourself. I think it is designed to please those people who feel that some people only have children so they can get more benefits. Although its a bit harsh on those that already have large familys I guess.

violethill Sat 09-Oct-10 17:51:08

Decisions have to be made at some point though, and it's going to hurt. You can't just say, well, we'll bring in the changes in twenty years time, so people can plan for it and limit their family accordingly. It would be twenty years too late - and anyway, it wouldn't stop people breeding now if they wanted to. Unfortunately society has got to a point where many people think if they want something, they are entitled to it, and someone else should pay.

I would have liked 4 children, but it was a luxury we couldn't afford. Childcare for 3 nearly crippled us, 4 would have been the straw that broke us.

sarah293 Sat 09-Oct-10 17:53:49

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violethill Sat 09-Oct-10 17:58:42

I don't believe people really won't have enough for food.

I think times will be hard, but there will also be some positive outcomes, because people who have lived in hugely expensive properties at the taxpayers expense, will be forced to live a more realistic modest lifestyle. Maybe their kids won't have a bedroom each, but tough tits, neither did I growing up and it didn't kill me! I also think people may need to be more creative about how they shop and cook, to make wholesome ingredients go a long way. We did it when the kids were small, our mortgage hit 15% and there weren't tax credits or subsidised childcare like now.

I think there will be some families who don't feed their children properly, and prioritise a packet of fags over an evening meal, or who send their kids down the chippy. But that happens now. It would continue to happen if you doubled benefits.

Bonkerz Sat 09-Oct-10 17:59:11

We own a 3 bed house, both work and bring in £22k a year combined income, i have just found out im pregnant with Number 3 (4 if you include DSD who visits every weekend) and we are going to have to make do with the rooms we have. DS has to have his own room (ASD) so it means thet DSD and DD will have to share with this baby. My sister on the other hand is on benefits, neither her or her DH work. She has 4 children and a 5th due in NOV and currently lives in a 4 bedroom council house. Once the baby arrives her HA have already told her she will be classsed as overcrowded and will qualify for a 5 bed house and the waiting list is 9 by Sept next year she will be in a 5 bed house paid for by HB......

what this governemnt is proposing is very fair.

ISNT Sat 09-Oct-10 18:02:04

Well huge job losses from the public sector are coming very soon.

Families in large cities (esp london) will not be able to find accomodation in their local areas within the cap.

Children will need to be removed from schools, people will have to move away from their support networks and the people they support. Communities will be torn apart.

People will need to move to areas which are cheap - ie no opportunities and no way of getting out again.

Larger families will be told "tough you can only have enough money to feed two children" - what happens to the excess children. taking them all into care will be very expensive.

The savings made by this scheme are tiny in the scheme of things, it is ideologically driven, to punish the poor for being feckless. Or rather to punish the children of the poor for having parents that the govt disapproves of. This will tear communities apart and ruin the lives of thousands of families. Lots of people eg help out with their parents, their parents provide casual childcare, that sort of thing. Who is going to pick up all of that work? The savings made by this have been spent on a stupid and pointless married couples allowance.

What's not to like?

sarah293 Sat 09-Oct-10 18:02:13

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Meglet Sat 09-Oct-10 18:05:23

Does anyone know if the benefits cap applies to the childcare tax credits?

I don't get housing benefit or anything but I can't work if I don't get help with childcare fees.

violethill Sat 09-Oct-10 18:06:07

TBH, it may not be a popular thing to say, but it's very easy to emote about these issues:

'Poor starving kiddies 'etc

I think we need to look at facts, not hyperbole.

I've taught for over 20 years, and have yet to come across a child who is undernourished because there isn't enough money coming into the house. I have, however, come across many children who have appalling diets, or arrive at school with a packet of chews for breakfast, having been dropped off in a car that's newer than mine, or by a parent who's smoking.

There are pupils I teach whose parents are on benefits who have iphones, expensive clothes, even laptops... frequently they have as much or more than the children of the teaching staff.

I have no wish to turn this into a '40 inch plasma' thread - but we need to be honest.

FranSanDisco Sat 09-Oct-10 18:10:29

I am sorry to say that what Bonkerz has described is true of where I live. I have spoken to too many mothers pregnant with no. 2, 3 or 4 saying they will have to be rehoused when the new baby arrives and expecting a certain type of home with a garden.

ISNT Sat 09-Oct-10 18:11:42

I was in a primary school in a deprived part of london the other day and the parents we were meeting there had fuck all. One woman with 7 kids, 2 with SN and at the special school, desperately trying to see how she could get a job as with all of this they will be forced out of their home and moved to a different part of teh country.

But she can't get a job, can she, she's got loads of children to look after and one of them she has to be on permanent standby to rush into the hosp.

So she's fucked, isn't she. Just move her. Out of sight and out of mind.

She wasn't the only one. The parents want to work, they just have a shitload of problems in their lives which prevents it happening. You can use stick instead of carrot all you want but that's not going to solve the fact they can't read / write, have no qualifications and terribly difficult family situations is it.

All of this is pure tory selfish as fuck bollocks and it makes me feel ill.

Those who approve of capping benefits at two kids - presumably you would be crowing with glee if third and subsequent children were denied free school meals - after all why should anyone have to pay for someone elses children? Nice.

sarah293 Sat 09-Oct-10 18:14:30

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Willabywallaby Sat 09-Oct-10 18:18:35

Why do people have 7 children?

sarah293 Sat 09-Oct-10 18:19:02

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ISNT Sat 09-Oct-10 18:19:04

Well this is what I want to know. How are the cheaper LAs going to feel about suddenly having loads of people needing housing etc bussed into their areas.

What is going to happen about support networks? Who is going to look after these people's parents when they are gone? What is going to happen to the mental health of vulnerable people when they are removed from the homes and put somewhere away from friends and family? Will there be spaces in the schools for their children? It's hideous.

sarah293 Sat 09-Oct-10 18:19:56

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Willabywallaby Sat 09-Oct-10 18:20:58

I feel it's ecologically sound to only replace yourself, plus my DH says we can only afford 2, so that's where we'll stick.

Willabywallaby Sat 09-Oct-10 18:21:47

Could they not develop new support networks?

Bonkerz Sat 09-Oct-10 18:23:01

hopefully it will force people to look at ways to support themselves better. I have had many a conversation with a friend of mine who is a single parent, has a 3 bed council home and her youngest is 9YO, she says she is looking for work but is moaning about how the job center are forcing her into work. She has spent the last 5 months looking for school hours which are like gold dust...... i suggested that if she put her 9 year old in after school care at a cost of £7 a night she could extend her search for a job working from 10-5pm, the reply i got was WHY should she put her 9yo into childcare when she could stay on benefits.....she didnt care that she would be about £45 a week better off even after paying childcare and didnt understand my argument that it would be better for her son to see her working and contributing!
I had to work a horrid shift at work for a while year, relying on others to care for my 2 children inc my ASD son which played havoc with his behaviour BUT longterm it has paid off and i now have school hours.

huddspur Sat 09-Oct-10 18:24:02

I think to just have X amount of children and say that you had that many because you wanted that many is fine. However I don't accept that people should just have as many children as they like and expect the state to provide for them (I exclude people who have fallen on hard times and need the Government to provide for them in a time of need).

Meglet Sat 09-Oct-10 18:24:02

How on earth do you develop a new support network?! It's hardly easy.

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