Some questions/concerns about HE from a complete novice!

[Bodenbabe]

I'm in the very early stages of thinking about HE my 7yo DD but I know virtually nothing about it and so I was wondering if you could give me your thoughts! Sorry in advance as I'm sure these topics have all been covered 1000s of times before

1. My main concern is my almost-3yo DS. He is SO demanding and wants to join in everything, how on Earth could I home ed DD but still give DS time, and stop him getting in the way of DD? For example, every time DD gets art materials out he just climbs up on the chair and interferes with what she's doing - he won't stick to his own work, he just pulls apart what she does. And every time I try to have a simple conversation with her, he screams about something or other or wants playing with - so how can I possibly give her enough attention that she can learn anything?!

1. How do you find out abot what you are going to HE. I know next to nothing about history, so do I have to learn things myself before I can pass it on to DD? And if so, when do you find time to do that?! I don't really want to spend my evenings swotting up myself!

1. Is it possible to roughly follow the curriculum or does HE have to be autonomous?

1. Re. socialising - I know that there are HE groups out there, but I am a little bothered about this. Will she lose the friends she's made at school (is it impractical to think they can meet up after school?) Are there enough HE children in a local area to give DD a good chance to make friends? What if there's only 2 HE kids near us and DD doesn't like either of them?! And do you find that you make friends as a mum? Most of my friends are mums I met in the playground and I guess I'd lose out on that so I'm worried I'd be friendless too.

1. I do like the idea of school (though think the day is far too long) and I don't believe that HE is better, I'm just thinking about it because DD misses me at school - is that enough of a reason to HE?! She gets on really well at school and we don't have tears in the morning etc., she just really misses me and wishes she was at home. Maybe I should persevere with school?

1. What about secondary school and university, should they decide to go? And about getting a job later? If you don't have exams to judge by then how do these places accept HE children? Are they prejudiced against HE kids or is Uni still possible?

1. Do your DCs pay attention to you? I really struggle to get my DD to listen to me so would worry about how much she'd learn. I'm not tlaking about in a formal setting, I mean even in a simple play situation. Although maybe if I tried the "pay attention or you'll have to go back to school" line that might work

1. Do you think HE children have a lack of respect for authority? That might sound a daft question and you might think that it's healthy to question authority anyway, but if she only ever deals with me (who she doesn't really respect, I don't think ) then how is she going to learn to deal with authority?

I'm also going to ask in the Education topic what people's reasons are for being against HE, as I'm assuming that everyone on this topic is a pro-HE. Please don't be offended by this, I just want to see if there are negatives I haven't thought of! (or if anyone here does have reservations about HE then please share!)

Thanks very much for this, sorry to ask what probably all of you have been asked a million times before

[Bodenbabe]

Also - don't you just sometimes get really, really sick of your DCs if they are with you all the time?! I feel mean for saying this but gosh I do like the break I get when she's at school as she's a demanding child to say the least!

[FlamingoBingo]

Wow! A lot of questions! Will have a go:

1. You learn to juggle, and you remember that your 3yo will grow up and not always be a 3yo. You will learn lots and lots of tips about how to get children of different ages doing similar things together. What does he love doing? Could you bake with him while your DD does some art? Can you create an art space in a room where you can shut the door? Can you make the activity suit him in some way as well - alter it a bit? Do art when he's playing at a friend's house, or dad's taken him to the swings, or when he's gone to bed?

HE takes place all the time a child is awake - it doesn't have to be 'normal' hours.

1. Learn alongside them. Trust that you will learn alongside them. It teaches children a lot about self-directed learning to see you say 'I don't know, but I wonder how we can find out'. Then, together, you can search the internet, visit the library, search out adults you know who are experts who you can ask, visit museums.....You're teaching your child how to learn, not what to learn IYSWIM.

1. Yes, more than possible. Lots do. Autonomous is better IMO . Nicer, more efficient...have you read anything about informal learning? Alan Thomas and Harriet Pattison very good, as is John Holt. I was very, very dismissive of autonomous ed until I read John Holt - now I'm a complete convert. No planning here, except for 'fun' activities . Heaps of learning though!

1. One of the things I love about HE is that the friends you and your children make tend to be 'family' friends - it feels much more like a community than when your child goes to school. There are more HE'd children than you realise - my children's circle of friends is far larger, and more varied, than they would have in a regular classroom.

1. Yes, enough of a reason IMO. Children are, I believe, not meant to spend as much time apart from their parents as they do and big problems can be created by this premature separation. There's lots been written about it in psychology and child development literature, although not specific to HE.

1. Universities are far more open to potential students without conventional qualifications than you'd expect - particularly when faced with an applicant who is so interested in her subject htat she's already found a way to get experience and learning in other ways, for example. Or you can sit GCSE's with your local adult learning college, or some schools will let your DD join them for exams, or there's the OU. Or you can skip GCSEs and go straight to A-Level or Diploma level...there are ways and ways of doing things and we are conditioned to believe that the conventional way is the only way, and it isn't. If you do HE, you and your DCs will get a lot of practice at thinking outside the box. Try reading Terri Dowty's Free Range Education for some good real life stories about home education and exams etc.

1. No - that's another benefit of autonomous learning though. They pay loads of attention when they're listening to the answer of a question they've asked! And the information sticks. Unlike the extra stuff I try to tell them, when they switch off.

1. Yes and no. And it depends on your own beliefs, I suppose. I don't want my DDs to grow up blindly doing what they're told just because the person doing the telling is in authority to them. I want them to respect people who are worthy of respect.

Last question: Yes, definitely. DH takes them to his parents every few weeks for the day so I get a real break. He also helps a lot when he's home anyway. I pop out to friends or to go shopping sans children on his days off, or if his mum is here. But you all learn, as a family, a lot about co-operative living when you are around eachotehr a lot of the time,a nd learn ways of being together so much without going mad!

[Bodenbabe]

Flamingo, thank you so much for your reply. Sorry, yes, that was rather a lot of questions, wasn't it?! It's good to know that Universities are open to HE children. Re. your children not paying attention - how do you get them to learn vital stuff that they're not interested in? eg DD isn't at all interested in maths but surely that's essential, even if you go the autonomous route?

[FlamingoBingo]

The only essential maths is the maths you need to live, right? So you'll learn it as you live. If you need more advanced stuff, it'll be because you're learning something you need it for, and, again, you'll pick it up easily. Maths comes into loads of life - how long will it take to get to Grandma's house? How much flour do we need for our cake? (invest in some balance scales) How long until my birthday? How much money do I still need to save for that toy I want?

And then there's the maths that they may just want to do anyway. My dd's are currently playing a game with DH where they roll a dice and then colour in different balloons with different colours according to the number thrown. Previously to this, they've been playing a game jumping on a foam alphabet letter mat thing and spelling out words, or identifying letters according the ability of the child.

I really recommend reading the Alan Thomas and Harriet Pattison book - How Children Learn At Home - for explanations of how children learn the 'essentials' autonomously. Also John Holt's Learning All The Time (also Teach Your Own).

Basically, if they're interested in it, and it's relevant to them, then they pay attention. If it's not interesting or relevant then it's probably not essential. If you really feel something is, then you just find a way to 'teach' it that makes it interesting and relevant to them.

Get them keeping score as they play bowling on the wii, for example, if you feel they need more help with mental arithmetic. DD1 loves adding in her head. There's a great Wii fit game where you hit boingy things with your hips with numbers on that add up to ten - great for learning number bonds.

[seeker]

"If it's not interesting or relevant then it's probably not essential."

Tell them that when they suddenly realize that they want to be a lawyer or a doctor or a physicist and they discover that you need an A level in a subject that didn't interest them when they were 7 and which they therefore haven't done any work in at all since.

[FlamingoBingo]

If they're interested in it, then it won't take them long to do an A-Level in it when they need it, will it? Or an access course? Or a diploma?

I doubt very much that any physicists learnt any of the things they find useful now when they were 7! Apart from things that they would have to live in a box to avoid - things like why snow melts, why you get different colours when you mix paint.

Children are naturally very curious and want to learn. They can (note that I say 'can' not 'will') lose that natural curiosity by being forced to be taught things they have no interest or ability in.

You know that Einstein didn't go to school, don't you?

[seeker]

I do know about Einstein. However a) Einstein was a genius - unlike most other people - and b) he didn't have to jump through the hoops you now need to jump through to get to university.

[juuule]

I've been looking and I can't find anything that says that Einstein didn't go to school.
Where should I be looking?
Wiki seems to say that he did.

[seeker]

I think he did, but not til he was 7 or 8.

[seeker]

Just realixed my earlier post should have read "I don't know about Einstein but...."

[Bodenbabe]

I'm not sure I agree that if it isn't interesting then it's not important - DD isn't even interested in very basic maths - eg. if I ask her to count some change or somehting she coudln't care less - though maybe that will change later. Regardless, you have a very good point that they can learn these things later - that's reassuring as I hadn't thought of that.

[seeker]

They CAN learn these things later, but it is SO much easier to learn them when their contemporaries are doing it.

[FlamingoBingo]

Maybe she isn't interested because so far most of her adding experience has been less than pleasant and made little or no sense not being 'real'?

[seeker]

sometimes you just have to do stuff......

[ZZZenAgain]

tbh I'm not really surprised that your 7 year old is not interested in maths

dd is 9 and has never been interested in it, I went right through school not being interested in it which is not the same as struggling with it. I think it is quite possible that some people (myself included) will never be genuinely interested in maths, no matter how it is presented to them.

[Tinuviel]

1 I sent my DCs to nursery so that gave us a couple of hours every morning to do HE stuff. It really helped. I also found my DD loved story books with tapes/CDs and that kept her amused too sometimes. Having an afternoon nap helped - DS2 and DD both had a 1-2 hour nap most afternoons through most of reception.

2 There are some things I know (how to add up!!) and some stuff I learn alongside them.

3 You don't have to be autonomous and structure suits some people better. We are pretty structured and are on a structured home ed forum, if you are interested.

4 We don't go to the local 'group' but are now part of a reading group (meets once a months) and they also learn French and Spanish with 2 other families (8 children in total), which I teach.

5 I would agree that a) the school day is too long and b) that school is not inherently a bad place to be!! (but then I'm a teacher too . It's still fine to HE.

6 I have every intention of them doing some GCSEs and then going to 6th form/ college.

7 My DCs don't always listen but know that there will be consequences!!

8 Well they do what their dance teacher tells them (mind you, so would I - she is scary!) and also seem to cope fine with Cubs/Scouts so I'm guessing they have no problems with authority.

9 Yes, they can drive me insane!! But I tend to go out on Saturday afternoons - shopping, for a coffee, meet up with a friend etc to get a bit of time on my own. It also helps that I work 2 days a week - DH has 1 day at home and we have a nanny who comes in for the other. She is very good at doing sewing and cooking with them.

[Bodenbabe]

Flamingo, no, I don't think her maths at school has been dull, it sounds great! They've made 'robot' adding machines, gone to shops with a pound each, and done loads of really fun things for numeracy.

Tinuviel, it sounds like you have a great set up there.

[moominotter]

Re question 4.

This would be my big concern also.
Although I also know that all those pro-HE will shout me down.
However, I think there is something about the shared expereince of being at school with the same other children, day in day out, doing the same things together, which gives rise to close friendships. I don't think you get that from seeing other children at a HE group once or twice a week, or going to cubs or whatever.
Although your child's current friends might still want to be friends, they just won't have that shared experience to bind them together in the same way, and they will proabably move on to other friendships at school, although they might still see your dc as well.
I think the pool of available children to choose friends from, also narrows hugely if you HE.

[FlamingoBingo]

moominotter - close friendships do happen with HE children. And school does not mean you will make close friends there. In fact, I remember having different best friends throughout the years. I never had close friends at school for as long as my DDs have been close friends with their friends!

[becaroo]

Roden My ds1 was just like your dd in that he was awyas saying how much he missed me when he was at school It really broke my heart to have to say "I miss you too sweetheart" every morning til one day I realised we didnt have to miss each other anymore There were alot of other issue too but if a child wants to be with its parent then thats where they should be.

Only into my 2nd week as a HE parent but ds1 is happier, I am happier and its going ok so far.

Hope that helps!

[julienoshoes]

Deep and lasting friendhips do occur for home educated children.

My children are friends with children they went to school with, each has a couple of those friends that have remained true over the years.

I know some home educated children who have never been to school and yet have become close friends with children thwy play out with/go to clubs with. Just as children can be close friends when they don't go to the same school.

And my three children have so many close friends from their home educated years.
Some are from the local group and some are from national groups.
For we did what was right for my children and threw ourselves into the national home ed community and went to camps and gatherings.
Our children got to spend hours on end day after day, spending as much time as they wanted to with their fruiends without lessons and sitting still and being queit getting in the way of shared experiences!


Some children will not want this level of socialisation and would prefer smaller groups or even one to one socialisation.
Thats fine too and can and does lead to very close friendship and lots of shared experiences.

I have said this many times over.
My children have a social life that is the envy of their schooled peers and cousins!

and lastly

School is a very lonely place indeed if you do not fit in.

[Mehetabel]

"Tell them that when they suddenly realize that they want to be a lawyer or a doctor or a physicist and they discover that you need an A level in a subject that didn't interest them when they were 7 and which they therefore haven't done any work in at all since."

My son was fully autonomously educated from birth to going to college. He did A levels in Biology, Sports Science and Chemistry at college, with no problems what so ever, having previously done no formal work of any kind.

He is now contemplating taking a second degree in Medicine, as he has nearly finished his PhD in bio-medical research which he did following his first biology degree. I believe he will be one of the youngest people in the world to have completed a PhD.

[ZZZenAgain]

I agree with julie, school can be a very lonely place for a lot of the dc. Looking back on my own school years, although I was quite happy there, I did see dc being picked on horribly (and did nothing to help I'll admit). So much for the social training that school gives you.

I think probably a lot of the dc were quite lonely for all that they were with a bunch of dc their own age all day long. I don't mean just the ones singled out for bullying, a lot of the others are there but are not in the "in" group(s) for whatever reason. They are not sporty, they are not considered all that attractive, they are not the greatest jokers.

I've met loads of shy adults who are nervous in new groups or sit in a meeting and rarely open their mouth etc, are never sure how to make an opening or develop a friendship etc. I can't rmeember how many times I have been with grown women who don't dare go up and ask a question of someone and want you to do it for them etc. Perfectly nice women but so lacking in confidence - so I get tired of reading how HE miss out on this great social interaction, social training that school gives. I think most dc at school are not getting that frankly.

Maybe they do miss out,maybe it is better to be with the same dc at school each day, I don't really know but I wonder if people have the smallish number of dc in mind who are well-liked and confident at school and not the considerable number who aren't.

[OttersOnIce]

ZZZen - I agree that yes, school may not be so great for quite a lot of people.
But, what gets me with these discussions is the assumption that therefore HE is going to be fantastic for a child's social skills and ability to make friends.
I am sure that some HE do, with great effort on the parents' part, get lots of opportunities to meet other kids, do group activities, learn social skills, etc, but there's a bit of a blanket assumption that this is therefore the case for all HE children and that slotting into VI form / uni when the time comes / if that's their choice will be no great issue.
And maybe it's not, but I guess I would be interested to hear whether anyone's ever had expereince to the contrary?

[ommmward]

What I think (as a HE-as-default-setting person) is that someone who finds it easy to get on with and spend a lot of time with other children is going to be as socially confident as a schooled child as being a HEed child. Those children will slot in no problem whatever social situations they find themselves in

For a child with less confidence, I personally see HEing as potentially being an extension of attachment parenting - where independence is something a child takes when they are ready and confident for it rather than at age 4 for reception whether they are ready or not. Or age 3 for preschool, I guess. School-as-unquestioned-norm for a timid child doesn't have that option. I see school for a timid child as being more at the jolly-them-along end of the parenting scale - put them in the situation they find difficult and help them make the best of it, and argue that their confidence will come from overcoming their fears.

Not saying that either is wrong. YMMV. Sometimes a child might need more parental backup than some parents offer. Sometimes a child might need more of a friendly nonanxious nudge towards independence in some area of their lives than the parents are inclined to give them.

My personal experience is that, with children who simply would not cope in a mainstream classroom setting (perhaps with sensory issues or ASD or similar), they have been able, very very gradually and from tentative beginnings, to make lasting and deep friendships with people of all ages, which gives them the confidence and skills to go into bigger, formal group settings as they get older which they did not have aged 5.

I've said it recently elsewhere on Mumsnet: some HE children seem "weird" to those outside. This doesn't necessarily mean that HE makes you weird and unsociable. It is very likely that you HE because, in the eyes of the mainstream, you ARE weird and lack social skills, and wouldn't flourish in school culture.