Havard referencing

[filee777]

If I am referencing a paragraph that references another, do i use the book i have in front of me or the reference that is in the book?

I seriously hope someone understood that!

[filee777]

Okay sorted it :)

[UptheChimney]

Glad you've sorted it.

But for the future, use this principle:

Your reader needs to be able to reconstruct your reading & reference. So if I were your marker or reader, I'd need a reference that would enable me to get the book/journal article which you used, and find the reference you quote on the right page.

If you're quoting someone quoting someone else, my advice would be to go to the original. I require my graduate students to do this & suggest it is best practice to my undergrads.

This is because if you quote someone quoting someone else, you're only getting the ideas/quotations at second hand.

[filee777]

It wasn't a quote, just a reference.

I am learning the difference.

[UptheChimney]

Aha! Good -- but either way, you cite the reference to the book/article you read. Otherwise you could be seen as disingenuous or even pretending (lying) that you'd read the original book, when you hadn't.

In your case, you'd need to write something like:

"In supporting her case for confusion, Jane Bloggs draws on Mary Smith's notion of bewilderment. Bloggs argues that Smith's examples 'offer clarity to the confused' and quotes Smith's concept of eclaircissement." For that, you reference could be EITHER (Smith, cited in Bloggs, 2013, 89) or just (Bloggs, 2013, 89).

Of course if you're a MA/PhD student, I'd be requiring you to go to the original book. If you find Jane Bloggs' citation of Mary Smith useful, then reading Mary Smith's original book may be useful to you, and you'll get more than just Jane Bloggs' view and selective editing of Mary Smith.

see how exciting my life is before term starts

[iworemyfringelikerogermcguinns]

you might not need this now but here are a couple of tutorials / reference guides for you:

This whole guide is useful but for your particular question you want the section on secondary sources:
www.dlsweb.rmit.edu.au/bus/public/referencing/index.html

A briefer guide:
www.cardiff.ac.uk/insrv/resources/guides/inf057.pdf

As UptheChimney said, I would encourage students to go to the original source rather than secondary sources, although I guess tutors might be a bit more relaxed for eg first year undergrads.
HTH

[filee777]

Thank you all so much! I have a 'test essay' which is the one I have just done which does not get marked, lest of all put towards my grade for the year!

Hopefully I will get positive feedback from that.

[UptheChimney]

Aha, the "formative feedback" essay. Great that they give you one.

Now do it seriously, and go to the feedback tutorial, or if there isn't one scheduled, make an appointment with your personal tutor to talk through feedback you receive.

I say this through gritted teeth, because in end of year student questionnaires, several of my lot wrote that they thought a feedback tutorial should be offered & should be compulsory.

Well yes, we scheduled a week of 1 to 1 feedback tutorials after the practice essay, and they were compulsory. But apparently, they were in some invisible parallel universe ... and not even mentioned on the course outline they were

[iworemyfringelikerogermcguinns]

Saw your other thread - here are a couple of other links that might be useful:

Writing:
www.monash.edu.au/lls/llonline/writing/general/academic/index.xml

Critical reading:
www2.open.ac.uk/students/skillsforstudy/critical-reading-techniques.php

Apologies if you are already familiar with the ideas on those sites. I just wish I'd known these things when i started uni cos my first essays were complete crap :)

[filee777]

I will definitely go to my tutorials, will be the first one 2 one session I have!

There are only 15 in the year group so we don't easily get overlooked, for better or worse!

[filee777]

todays that site is fantastic! I couldn't do references properly in open office and it looks like this will let me! I'm definitely going to download it and use it for my next essay. I've slaved loads over this assignment already and it's not even being marked (grumble grumble)

[Selks]

This is v useful. After a years worth of essays I still struggle with Harvard referencing. It gets marked as wrong even when I'm sure I did it right!

[UptheChimney]

You mean, you mark won't "count" but if your essay is read, and you receive comments, and you follow it up with a personal tutorial, thn this WILL count for a lot you will have had a go at writing an essay at university without the fear of the consequence of not getting it right the first time.

You really need to appreciate & take advantage of this learning opportunity

[filee777]

I've already been to university.