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MumsnetGuestBlogs (MNHQ) Fri 08-Nov-13 11:50:27

Philomena and Me: Martin Sixsmith, on a mother's search for the child she was forced to give up

Stephen Frears' 'Philomena', which stars Judi Dench and Steve Coogan, is already being tipped for next year's Oscars. It's a dramatisation of a book by former BBC correspondent Martin Sixsmith, and recounts the true story of his friendship with Philomena Lee, an Irish woman forced by the Church to give up her illegitimate child for adoption when he was three years old.

Years later, she and Martin set out to find her lost boy. In this guest blog, he explains how Philomena's plight - and her extraordinary resilience - drew him into her story.

Read the post, and do tell us what you think on the thread below.

Martin Sixsmith

Author, 'Philomena'

Posted on: Fri 08-Nov-13 11:50:27


Lead photo

Judi Dench stars as Philomena Lee, who was forced to give up her child for adoption

The story told by my book ‘Philomena’, and the immensely moving film that has been made of it, is one of mothers and children - of the intense maternal bond that develops between them in the first years of life. In that sense the story is a universal one. But the tragic event at the heart of ‘Philomena’ concerns the emotional turmoil that is unleashed when that sacred bond is broken by the callous actions of others.

Philomena Lee was just eighteen when she met a handsome young man at the county fair in Limerick, Ireland one evening in 1952. She had spent the whole of her young life in a Catholic boarding school and she had no idea about the facts of life. After an evening of romance Philomena had fallen pregnant, a shameful thing in 1950s Ireland. Philomena was sent to the nuns at a convent at Roscrea in County Tipperary to give birth as a ‘fallen woman’. She was forced to spend over three years there, slaving in the laundries while also caring for her son, Anthony.

But worse was to follow. When Anthony was three and a half Philomena was told he was being taken from her, given for adoption in America, in return for a hefty ‘donation’ to the church from his new parents. Philomena was devastated. Sent away to England, she trained as a nurse and raised a family. But she kept the ‘guilty secret’ of her illegitimate child for fifty years, not telling her other children or her friends because the church had told her she would be damned if she did so. Full of regret, Philomena spent five decades secretly searching for her lost son, while he – unbeknown to Philomena – was also searching for her.

It was at this stage that I entered the story. On the day of what she knew to be Anthony’s fiftieth birthday, Philomena had finally told her daughter Jane that she had a long lost half-brother. Jane knew I’d been a journalist and asked me for help in finding him.

Her son had gone back several times to the convent where he was born, and asked the nuns if they would put him in touch with her, so the nuns knew that both of them wanted to find each other. But - perhaps ashamed at the church's role in selling babies - they refused to help.

My own background was in foreign reporting and politics – I’d been the BBC’s correspondent in Moscow and Washington and had worked in Whitehall under Tony Blair – so at first I was dubious about taking on what journalists mockingly refer to as a ‘human interest story’.

It took just one meeting with Philomena to rid me of that cynical attitude. From the very first moment I was struck by the immense humanity of the woman. She was friendly, bright and hugely likeable – qualities that had been in short supply in Westminster and Whitehall. We hit it off straight away. And over the next four years as I worked with her to try to unravel what had become of her lost child I came to appreciate Philomena’s emotional wisdom, the way she took what the world had thrown at her and refused to let it make her bitter or ruin her life.

The detective story I embarked on took me to Ireland and to America. And what I discovered about the forces that had separated a mother from her child made me very angry. I managed to find out that Anthony had become a successful lawyer and had risen to the heights of the American political world. Renamed Michael Hess he had served as the White House’s Chief Legal Counsel under Ronald Reagan and George Bush Senior, but he had never stopped thinking about and yearning for his mother.

Like her, he had gone back several times to the convent where he was born and asked the nuns if they would put him in touch with her. Some of his visits coincided almost exactly with Philomena’s own trips to the convent, so the nuns knew that both of them wanted to find each other. But, perhaps ashamed at the church’s role in selling babies, they refused to help.

If you read the book ‘Philomena’, you will discover the true story of the lost son who made a material success of his new life, but was haunted by his love for his absent mother and by painful regrets that blighted his existence.

If you watch the film of ‘Philomena’ you will see a faithful recreation of the bond that developed between her and me as we embarked on our shared detective odyssey. The film is a moving mix of laugh out loud humour and tender, poignant sadness. But it has a powerful emotional message. It reminds us that life can dish up some pretty bad things. None of us can choose what lands on our head; but we can choose how we react to life’s tragedies. And the relationship between Philomena and Martin depicted in the film is a pointed demonstration of two people reacting very differently.

Philomena is shown to be full of forgiveness and understanding. Her emotional wisdom, unshakeable faith and breadth of spirit restores your faith in humanity. She accepts life’s unfairnesses and gets on with the business of living. Martin on the other hand is angry about the injustices of the past and speaks out forcefully. He cannot share Philomena’s serenity and it leaves him restless. Philomena says, ‘It must be tiring being so angry all the time’.

There are of course differences between the Martin Sixsmith played onscreen by Steve Coogan and myself. I am not such an angry person, and I am an agnostic rather than a convinced atheist. But I share the film’s intolerance of injustice in all walks of life, and I share its admiration for a woman like Philomena who has the strength to rise above them.

The book ‘Philomena’, by Martin Sixsmith is published by Pan Macmillan at £7.99. ‘Philomena’ the film is in cinemas now.

By Martin Sixsmith


LakeDistrictBabe Fri 08-Nov-13 13:20:14

This seems a book and a good movie, although given the subject I guess there will a few issues concerning the church (in USA it got a R rating, probably due to that....).

What I don't get is why the journalist put his twitter account at the end of it and you can't follow him because his tweets are protected... :/

MumsnetGuestBlogs (MNHQ) Fri 08-Nov-13 13:33:35

Ah, that's our mistake LakeDistrictBabe: we're the ones who add the Twitter details. Apols - we've removed it now.

Jakebullet Fri 08-Nov-13 15:59:46

How sad, I am Catholic but these Nuns acted in a way which is wholly alien to what I think is "right". Horrific and unjust, haven't seen the film yet or read the book. Suspect I will read the book rather than see the rile (never get time for cinema).
Poor Philomena....such a terrible time in history and so shameful that a mother should be parted from her child in this way.

Lurleene Fri 08-Nov-13 16:15:38

I saw a preview of this film a few weeks ago and it was so moving, such a sad story but told so beautifully. All the more heartbreaking because it is true.

morethanpotatoprints Fri 08-Nov-13 16:22:19

A real emotive subject and unfortunately one that haunts many women today. I know this story particularly concerns the church but during these times, society has a lot of blame to take too.
Having seen documentaries on the Magdalene Laundries it is hard to understand how people so God fearing could treat other humans so badly.
The Priests were known to rape the mothers and the nuns wouldn't allow any pain relief and they'd say awful things to them during labour.
It saddens me that the individuals won't be held to account for this, truly barbaric.
I will read the book but too close for comfort for me, so won't go to the cinema.

YDdraigGoch Fri 08-Nov-13 16:25:21

Excellent film - very moving. I will never understand the ways of the Catholic Church. I'd like to read the book next.

JazzAnnNonMouse Fri 08-Nov-13 16:28:51

Looks like a really good film and interesting book.
Such an awful thing to happen, makes me so sad.

tiktok Fri 08-Nov-13 16:40:39

I saw the film yesterday and I will read the book.

It is a very engaging and human story - superbly directed and acted.

I still don't understand how the Church can justify the behaviour of the nuns - ashamed of their past or not, they behaved wickedly, really wickedly. I liked a line in the film: Martin says to Philomena "you want to go to confession????? It's the Catholic church who should be confessing to you!"

VoiceofRaisin Fri 08-Nov-13 17:43:09

I saw the film a few days ago.

I agree that the nuns behaved appallingly eg seeing the pain of labour as "atonement" and therefore not to be relieved, and, of course, not helping put Philomena and her son back together BUT, and this is a big but, they were offering the girls who went there a better option than they could get anywhere else - food, shelter, a chance to bf their babies, and spend a few years with them and child care whilst they worked. Also, awful as it was for the young mums, the children probably had better lives than those young mothers (given the prevailing welfare and social conditions) could have provided for them. I am NOT defending the Church as they could have done it so much more kindly and it was largely their judgment on the immorality of sex that produced the prevailing social climate, but perhaps they were actually helping. Yes, I am prepared to be flamed as I know this is a controversial viewpoint - like I am against very low wages in sweatshops in principle but can't help thinking that it's better than the alternative (a job paying less or starving on the streets...people only take the job if it's their best option in the circumstances). Philomena signed the adoption papers because she knew that SOCIETY (not the nuns in particular) gave her no other viable option. She said as much in an interview I heard. Without the nuns she would not have even had her 3 years with her baby. I think that is why she was less outraged than Sixsmith.

SirChenjin Fri 08-Nov-13 17:47:21

Oh my lord VoiceofRaisin - really?? You really, truly believe that?? You think that Jesus Christ would have approved of their behaviour? What you've just written is so appalling I don't know where to start. Hopefully someone who is less upset by your words will be along in a minute to explain why you've got it very, very wrong. sad

VoiceofRaisin Fri 08-Nov-13 18:01:34

No, with a modern mindset NOBODY could approve of what the nuns did but, at the time, it was less bad that what anybody else offered those poor girls - their own parents disowned them, there was no welfare state, nobody would even give a "fallen" woman a place to stay. Like I said, the nuns offered the least bad option (otherwise the girls would not have taken it). I am in no way defending them but it's easy to judge the past through modern eyes.

morethanpotatoprints Fri 08-Nov-13 18:06:14


Can you imagine what it must be like to bond with your child and have them taken away from you, just like that, no option.
To be treated so appallingly by those who say they are going to help you, and that's just the start.
This is real, you know. She wasn't the only one there are thousands.
I really don't know what else to say to you apart from please gain some perspective sad angry

morethanpotatoprints Fri 08-Nov-13 18:09:12


The saddest thing is that there was a welfare state, well, the poor law anyway. Not all the mothers families disowned them until the church stepped in to make society believe them with the rubbish they spouted.
No, there was no excuse and yes there were alternatives, sadly these poor mothers were never told of them.

BrianBScott Fri 08-Nov-13 18:25:41

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

SirChenjin Fri 08-Nov-13 18:33:46

No Voice - that's just not true.

morethanpotatoprints Fri 08-Nov-13 18:45:23


Magdalene laundries? have you posted on wrong thread or is there a connection?

AmberLeaf Fri 08-Nov-13 19:05:22

No, with a modern mindset NOBODY could approve of what the nuns did but, at the time, it was less bad that what anybody else offered those poor girls - their own parents disowned them, there was no welfare state, nobody would even give a "fallen" woman a place to stay

Not true.

I have/had older family members who like Philomena had babies out of wedlock, they weren't disowned and didn't have to give up their babies.

There were alternatives.

My family were not catholic though which I expect had a huge bearing on their outcomes.

I'm familiar with stories like Philomenas and hope to see the film if I get the opportunity.

TheOneWithTheNicestSmile Fri 08-Nov-13 20:00:33

"Philomena twisted the truth" according to the Sisters of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary


TheOneWithTheNicestSmile Fri 08-Nov-13 20:03:30

I don't know what Brian said but various reviews of the film have referenced the Magdalene laundries & said Philomena worked in one

SirChenjin Fri 08-Nov-13 20:04:44

Brian was promoting his website which would allow you to work from home and earn $7K a month grin

Allice Fri 08-Nov-13 20:16:12

I saw the film last week and pretty much sobbed the whole way through, such a tragic story. My heart really goes out to Philomena and her lovely son.

TheOneWithTheNicestSmile Fri 08-Nov-13 20:16:28

oh really?

would that have been washing his socks? grin

Housesellerihope Fri 08-Nov-13 21:41:16

A really heart-rending film and what those nuns did with the backing of the Catholic Church was truly evil. They took advantage of these poor young women's plight, forcing them to work as slave labour and selling their babies. Not sure at all how you can say they took them in, VoiceofRaisin, when the women would have had to pay £100 to be let out again or work 7 days a week for years.

The only thing I didn't like about the film was that, unless I missed it, there was never an explanation of what happens to Mary's mother and why Mary wasn't interested in knowing anything about her. I know it wasn't their story but it felt like a loose end to me. I'd like to know whether this information is given in the book?

SirChenjin Fri 08-Nov-13 21:44:05

I'm going to see the film tomorrow night but am quite worried - how upsetting is it? What the nuns did really, really horrifies me sad.

TheOneWithTheNicestSmile Fri 08-Nov-13 22:08:55

is Mary the child who was adopted along with Anthony?

Maybe Mary's mother wasn't with her until she was 3, like Philomena & Anthony, so she didn't have the same ties?

Please don't give any spoilers, I spoiled it for myself by googling, I wish I hadn't sad

Mignonette Sat 09-Nov-13 08:21:15

Oh the irony of a bunch of nuns accusing the film of twisting the truth.

These women wouldn't know truth if a god struck them blind with it.

Merguez Sat 09-Nov-13 11:33:54

Another example of terrible deeds being perpetrated in the name of "God."

Loved the film, very moving story, and glad to hear that Martin Sixsmith isn't as angry as he was portrayed in the film.

However, was slightly surprised at the luxury hotels they stayed in … as a former journalist myself that doesn't chime with my own experience!

TheOneWithTheNicestSmile Sat 09-Nov-13 11:50:33

Philomena didn't actually go to the US with him, Merguez - they did it for the film to make it more entertaining (or something) - to turn it into something of a road film anyway

I doubt if he stayed in luxury hotels grin

Merguez Sat 09-Nov-13 12:15:02

I guess I will have to read the book then for a more accurate account.

The other bit I thought was odd was that he tracked the son down on the internet at breakfast in the American hotel - could just as easily have done that in the UK!

IComeFromALandDownUnder Sat 09-Nov-13 14:42:41

Such a sad story. I am looking forward to seeing it in the cinema. I find it heartbreaking that both son and mother were desperately looking for one another.

tiktok Sat 09-Nov-13 17:56:39

Merguez, I thought he needed special access to documents and files, which he got from his US contacts?

And he only got this access when he got there.....?

MissBeehiving Sat 09-Nov-13 20:39:53

I would really love to see the film/ read the book but DH is currently searching for his birth mother (a young unmarried Catholic woman) and it's just a bit too raw at the moment.

What these women went through in the 50's and 60's was truly horrendous. sad

ElizaCBennett Sat 09-Nov-13 21:40:05

Saw this last week. I really enjoyed it but there were some really sad moments that brought tears to my eyes.

edamsavestheday Sun 10-Nov-13 12:01:33

I've seen the film and it was very moving. Made me angry. My colleague interviewed Philomena Lee afterwards and said she was remarkably not bitter at all - immense forgiveness for such a terrible wrong.

IRL apparently Philomena is quite different to the Judi Dench character - far less naive and, I dunno, uneducated (she's a retired nurse, I gather).

I didn't cry, because I already knew of similar stories, have read a lot about them. My friend, a hard-bitten news journalist, did.

My mother, who only discovered she was adopted in her 40s, and is still searching for her mother (her late mother, by now), can't bear to watch it or anything along the same lines. Not even Who Do You Think You Are.

edamsavestheday Sun 10-Nov-13 12:02:37

Quite funny seeing Steve 'Hacked Off' Coogan playing a sympathetic journalist, though. Even though the film is quite clear that journalism isn't necessarily 'nice'.

VoiceofRaisin Sun 10-Nov-13 13:39:19

Amberleaf I expect Philomena's story might have been different had her own mother been alive when she fell pg. Lots of grandmothers became older "mothers". It's the poor girls without mums to do that for them that ended up with the nuns. I blame Philomena's father most in this instance for what happened to her as he is the one who turfed her out of the house from misplaced shame and didn't visit her for over 3 years in the Convent.

Had the Convent not taken Philomena in, I guess she would have been forced to find a back street abortionist or take her own life. I am so glad that we don't deal with vulnerable PG women like this any more, but still venture to opine that the nuns in the story were not the most evil characters in the tale (that would be everyone else who did nothing for Philomena).

Edam I wish your mother luck in tracing her own mother.

ScandinavianPrincess Sun 10-Nov-13 16:23:14

There is a fantastic film called the Magdalen Sisters, directed by Peter Mullan, which shows what truly evil people many of the nuns were and how cruelly they treated the vulnerable women that entered their hell holes. There is a link as these places were run by nuns and the Catholic church, as I assume the place where Philomena stayed was.
I was adopted in the seventies and feel strongly that my mentally ill mother could have been helped far more than she was. Single parents were still frowned on in the seventies and my being born out of wedlock was seen as evidence of mental instability. I know it's not the same thing exactly, but I do feel the prevailing views of the past led to a lot of children being adopted.
I haven't seen the film. I imagine it would make me weep buckets. I know there is no happy ending, but I do hope there was some peace at the end of it because as many people have said, the pain of having your child taken away is surely unbearable and many children mourn for the parent they lost. I know I did.

SirChenjin Sun 10-Nov-13 16:47:06

I saw the film last night - I had braced myself for a very emotional couple of hours, which it was, but it was also very funny and that helped to make was essentially a terrible, tragic story bearable.

I still came away with a sense that the Catholic church and (the vast majority) of the nuns involved display/ed a complete lack of compassion or kindness at a basic human level - to the extent that they still refuse to do all they can to help reunite mothers with their children. I can't claim to know very much about the religion - but as Martin Sixsmith says in the film, it's clear that it's them who should be sitting in the confession box, atoning for their evil.

TheOneWithTheNicestSmile Sun 10-Nov-13 17:20:17

Didn't the Catholic Church in Ireland receive large donations from the Americans who adopted babies like Anthony?

SirChenjin Sun 10-Nov-13 17:23:56

Yes. The babies were effectively sold sad.

edamsavestheday Sun 10-Nov-13 19:15:43

Thanks, voice, really hope we can get some answers for my Mum.

Re. the nuns - did you realise that they sold the babies?

VoiceofRaisin Sun 10-Nov-13 20:09:58

Yes. And I don't defend it! I just point out that the nuns provided an option for the girls that was better than any other. I suspect that realisation may be partly why Philomena herself is not bitter about it. She did after all sign the adoption papers - no doubt because she had no other choice but that was not the fault of the nuns without whom she would not have had the first 3 years even with her son. It was still appalling but I suppose it would have been unrealistic for the convent to keep the children and their mothers for 18 years as they would not have room for the newly PG vulnerable. The forced adoption of the little ones was a pragmatic solution of its time. Heartbreaking all the same.

SirChenjin Sun 10-Nov-13 20:39:28

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat yourself Voice - you are still incorrect.

TheOneWithTheNicestSmile Sun 10-Nov-13 20:44:55

From an interview with Philomena

"I knew that the children there might be adopted and I wanted to leave, but the nuns said my family would have to give them £100.
That wasn’t going to happen, there was no way they could come up with that sort of money.
Anyway, my father wouldn’t even acknowledge that I was still alive and I didn’t have a single visitor in the three and a half years I was there.
I asked them to try to find me a job in the outside world so I could keep Anthony, but they wouldn’t help. Even if I had tried to walk out with him there was nowhere to go and the police would have brought me back."

"The saddest thing to learn was that he had been to Sean Ross Abbey to find me and was told they knew nothing about me, in the same way they had told me they knew nothing about him.
I can accept some of what they did; they really did think I was a sinner and should be punished. I can’t condemn them. But the part that hurts me the most is that he went to see them, for the third time... they didn’t just refuse to put him in touch — they told him I had abandoned him at birth. I think that was evil. "

Those nuns were just full of love & charity, weren't they? hmm

& yes, her father doesn't come out of it well either, but at least he was just a sad, probably badly educated, ordinary bloke, not a representative of the Church

working9while5 Sun 10-Nov-13 22:07:45

To be fair Irish society turned its back on these women. Long after the laundries were gone there were families forcing adoption out of shame. I grew up in a tiny rural village and the girl next door was forced to adopt her son. Sent away for confinement, her own brother (my friend) only found out she had been pregnant when he was rooting around in her room for concealed cigarettes and found a box of letters to the baby she had been made to give up.

The other thing to remember is these nuns, in the main, did not choose a vocation. They were sent to the contents at 11 and 12 and denied their own life choices. I can imagine to be faced with young girls who had had the chance of romance and motherhood could be a challenge to women deeply repressed and without much autonomy of their own. I would never condone any illtreatment but it's complicated and terribly sad all round.

edamsavestheday Sun 10-Nov-13 22:41:44

Just adding a message to bump working's down so I can read it - drat this stupid 'blog hides most recent post' gremlin.

SirChenjin Mon 11-Nov-13 08:06:15

Irish society looked to the Catholic church for guidance though

VoiceofRaisin Mon 11-Nov-13 09:08:51

SirChenjin your last point is completely valid. I agree that the Catholic Church was majorly responsible for the mindset of shame if a girl in the family got PG out of wedlock. For that, I blame those (MEN) much higher up in the church than the nuns who were taking in girls that everyone else turned their backs on.

The film perhaps picked the wrong villains, although TBF they made one nun out to be sympathetic - I expect as in all places, there were a mix of characters. We shouldn't get so caught up in condemning the Nuns that we forget to look at the wider and more important immediate causes of this suffering which was society's views as moulded by the Catholic Church. Similar (but not identical) suffering is still going on regarding the availability of contraception and family planning choices around the world. It should also be the responsibility of ordinary decent human beings (like Philomena's father and aunt) to stand up against clearly cruel doctrines. They failed Philomena much more comprehensively than did the nuns.

SirChenjin Mon 11-Nov-13 09:35:23

They did - but that doesn't excuse or explain the simple lack of basic human kindness that they displayed, especially given their claim to be Christian. Could you withhold pain relief from a terrified young girl who was screaming in agony during childbirth, for example? I know I couldn't. While the men were dictating higher up in the church the woman lower down were complicit - and so for that I condemn them.

tiktok Mon 11-Nov-13 09:52:26

bump to read last post - MN, please fix!

working9while5 Mon 11-Nov-13 10:02:21

Can't read any posts now!

tiktok Mon 11-Nov-13 10:04:16

The cruelty was institutional, no doubt about it, and went beyond the individual culpability of the nuns, many of whom may well have been powerless to challenge it. The Catholic church worked very hard to prevent the state establishing social services that might have given an alternative to the girls - they felt that there would not be the necessary element of punishment and shame, and atonement for sin if social workers took the place of nuns.

That was then - but the cover-up and the continued punishment of the mothers is inexcusable. Public opinion in Ireland moved on decades ago, and the power of the Catholic church was consequently lessened. There was no reason other than a desire to hide their crimes with a view to clinging on to the shreds of a reputation in a desperate attempt to maintain some sort of hold on people.

It's exactly the same with the child abuse scandals.

tiktok Mon 11-Nov-13 10:04:48

Try again, working....

TheOneWithTheNicestSmile Mon 11-Nov-13 10:57:16

The nuns were "only following orders" I suppose, Voice?

VoiceofRaisin Mon 11-Nov-13 14:29:27

There is a little of that NicestSmile but actually the nuns were offering a kindness in taking in the girls when they too could have shunned them. I imagine we have to take the demeanour of the Head Nun (? tecchnical term) with a pinch of salt as portrayed in the film for artistic purposes - it is not a fact. It is amazing how often women take the blame in situations when in fact it is men that are the main culprits (here: Philomena's father, brother, Church doctrine, the mores of Irish Society set largely by men). The Nuns were not blameless btw - witholding pain relief (if they did intentionally withhold it rather than it simply not being available because no doctor would lower himself to offering it or could not be afforded) was a cruel act . The idea of a 3 year sanctuary of sorts - a chance to live and to eat and to be warm with her bairn, may have been very attractive to Philomena at the time. It was not perfect but, I repeat, it was better than anything anyone else had to offer her. We should widen the debate to look at the root causes of this suffering instead of merely the effectors.

The payment point is a red herring, imo. The nuns were not blowing money on wild living and fast cars. They too probably lived in some poverty. It will have been expensive housing, clothing and caring for lots of small children and their mothers and the Nuns will have had to cover their costs somehow otherwise they would not be able to continue to offer this service. Just as now surrogate mothers are entitled to "costs" but not "profit".

PS Of course I also condemn the nuns for the later cover-up and lack of help in repairing the situation when they could have helped in terms of re-uniting mothers and children. I also condemn the cold hearted cruelty with which young PG girls were treated by their friends and family in Ireland at that time.

StitchingMoss Mon 11-Nov-13 14:35:14

"kindness" wasn't a word that sprang to mind when i watched the film last night Voice.

I was totally with Martin when he said "I couldn't forgive".

Reminds of that adage about good people being good, bad being bad, but to make good people bad takes religion.

What those nuns did not only at the time but also later, keeping the mums and children apart was utterly shameful and despicable. I hope they got their just desserts in whatever judgement day their twisted minds believe in.

TheOneWithTheNicestSmile Mon 11-Nov-13 14:39:51

No, the nuns didn't receive any money personally of course, but they clearly facilitated a lot of money going to the church. However expensive it might have been to house & clothe the wicked women & their children, the women more than made up for it in the work they did.

& after Philomena (& others) had been punished for 3 years or however long was considered reasonable, why couldn't she (& others) have been helped to find a job elsewhere & move on with their children, if it wasn't really all about selling the children to Americans?

Once Anthony was gone & her time was up she was found such a job, after all.

The nuns did not behave with Christian charity & regardless of where their orders were coming from, they could have done

tiktok Mon 11-Nov-13 14:55:54

Voice, I think you are trying to present a more nuanced, less black and white interpretation of what happened.

Individual nuns varied in how deeply they were involved in these crimes (that's what they were - crimes). Individual nuns varied in how humane and understanding and kind they were.

All of them were involved in secrecy and cover-up, even at the time, but they varied in how many options they had in exposing what went on - some would have accepted in and felt uncomfortable about it, some would have not accepted it and simply left the convent, some would have tried to whistle-blow and been silenced, some would have convinced themselves they were doing the girls and the babies a huge favour, some would have thought the wicked little strumpets deserved all they got for sinning, some would have enjoyed punishing them....etc etc.

Beyond them, the institution of the Catholic church justified what was happening on religious grounds and practical ones (where else would the girls go? In a society that ostracised single mothers - because the church told them to - there were not many choices) but it was still criminal.

And nothing can excuse the cover-up.

tiktok Mon 11-Nov-13 14:56:23


VoiceofRaisin Mon 11-Nov-13 15:12:11

"why couldn't she (& others) have been helped to find a job elsewhere & move on with their children"

Having heard Philomena talk, and being of some great age myself so having a distant memory of how things were, those jobs simply weren't available. I doubt it was maliciousness on the part of the nuns not finding the girls jobs. Part time working, affordable childcare, child tax credits, affordable housing were all pie in the sky back in the 50's and 60's: there genuinely was no place for single mothers and their children. Like I said, the Nuns actually facilitated a 3 year sanctuary where these mothers could have time with their little ones. The portrayal by the film of them as the prime villains is too simplistic and too easy to buy into - we let ourselves as society off the hook if we can meretriciusly blame some group of women as being the perpetrators of a grave injustice. I am only making the hard point that the easy villains in the film may actually have been the only ones offering any help at all to single pg girls, and that the real villains (the male led church structure, the male relatives) get off without comment. The only girls who stood a chance were those with mothers who were prepared to take on the grandchildren as their own. Poor Philomena had no mother.

tiktok I agree with all you say.

MissScatterbrain Mon 11-Nov-13 15:48:58

The church did make a lot of money from fallen women as apparently the Irish government paid £1 a week for every mother in its care, and a further two shillings and sixpence for every baby. On top of this, the laundries provided income, along with the illicit baby trade - where thousands of children were given up for adoption to US couples in exchange for ‘donations’ of $2,000 to $3,000 (£1,250 to £1,900).

SirChenjin Mon 11-Nov-13 16:49:54

A santuary??!

SirChenjin Mon 11-Nov-13 16:50:34

Argh - sanctuary even

SirChenjin Mon 11-Nov-13 16:52:13

Argh - sanctuary even

SirChenjin Mon 11-Nov-13 16:52:17

Argh - sanctuary even

SirChenjin Mon 11-Nov-13 16:59:55

Whoops! grin

VoiceofRaisin Mon 11-Nov-13 19:18:17

well, yes, a sanctuary from how their lives would have been otherwise.

I would like to direct my anger at:

1. the bloke who had sex with Philomena without contraception when she was clearly young and naive, and then presumably refused to marry her when he found out she was PG
2. her father for kicking her out, not visiting for 3.5 years and not even providing a home for her when the child was older so that she could keep him.
3. the senior echelons of the Church (? the Pope) for creating an environment where it was acceptable/encouraged to disown PG daughters.
4. Society for not providing a welfare net.

The Nuns slightly ameliorated the situation for a bit. What they did was far from sufficient but it was a step in the right direction. The film makes them out as the hate figures because that is an easier story to tell.

TheOneWithTheNicestSmile Mon 11-Nov-13 20:47:24

re 1 & 2 - the father of the baby never knew, & Philomena's father scarcely knew her. Given the circumstances, she could have been shown a little more charity by the nuns, don't you think? At least her brother tried to help...

& re 3 & 4 - it's quite clear where the Church's interests lay hmm - it was all about cash for them

'My mother died of tuberculosis when I was six and my father put me and my three sisters in a convent while he kept my three brothers at home. He didn’t really ever come and see us; he was a poor man and only had a bicycle and we were 20 miles away.

'I left the convent when I was 18 and went to live with an aunt. A few weeks after she took me to a carnival in Limerick. Well, as you can imagine, it was like nothing I had ever seen in my whole life which until then had been full of nuns and praying day and night.

'It was there that I met John. He bought me a toffee apple and we had a kiss and we did the deed that same day and that was it. I didn’t know what I had done because I didn’t know what sex was. A few months later my aunt noticed my growing bump.

'I hadn’t — I didn’t know anything about the facts of life. You might be thinking I am making it up but this is the truth: when she said, ‘Are you pregnant?’, I said ‘What’s pregnant?’ As God is my witness I didn’t even know what pregnancy was!

'I had arranged to meet John the next week, when the carnival came back, but she locked me up and wouldn’t let me see him again. He never knew he was a father. All I knew about him was that he worked in the post office in Limerick which meant he was educated.

'My father and aunt disowned me. My father told my siblings: ‘I don’t want her mentioned again, she’s dead!’ Only my brother who was closest to me in age knew what had happened — through my aunt, who he was close to — and he got me into the nursing home at Sean Ross Abbey in Roscrea, County Tipperary. My sisters thought I really was dead. I had vanished off the face of the Earth.'

SirChenjin Mon 11-Nov-13 21:23:42

It wasn't a sanctuary at all. It was enforced slave labour, resulting in your child being sold while you were required to sign away all rights. I disagree that it was a better option - a better option would have been that the church supported these women and allowed them to keep their babies, whilst promoting the use of contraception. The Catholic church is an immensely wealthy church, which has consistently chosen not to practice kindness, tolerance, forgiveness, decency or even common sense - they could have easily helped these girls, then and now as women as they try to find their children. They chose not to - instead they hide behind their cassocks and their confession boxes.

edamsavestheday Mon 11-Nov-13 21:24:49

I don't think the nuns did anything positive at all. They are villains just as much as the church hierarchy. Taking in these girls? More like exploiting vulnerable women as slave labour and making a pile of money by selling their babies.

That was bad enough but they continue to harm people today, by continuing to lie about their crimes and continuing to frustrate the search for truth.

I am profoundly grateful that my Mother's birth mother got out of Ireland. She still gave her baby up, but at least she was not abused by cruel, vindictive, baby-trafficking nuns.

NonnoMum Mon 11-Nov-13 21:39:25

I have just read the book and was thoroughly impressed by your commitment to this story and to Philomena Lee.

Thank you.

I was also very impressed by Judy Dench's forward, mentioning that like in any drama, no one can be a total villain.

Are you familiar with the play, "Be My Baby" by Amanda Whittington?

I have a friend who works in Abu Dhabi and she works in theatre and film. What she has found is that all those social mores that happened in Ireland in the 50s (shame, family honour, attitudes to women/sex/reproduction) are happening now that society. And whilst it makes for interesting drama, it seems that those attitudes which are so shocking and unbelievable to our 21st century western eyes are being played out today in different cultures and different religions.

I wonder how many more "Philomenas" there are around the world?

edamsavestheday Mon 11-Nov-13 22:13:20

bumping most recent post down so people can read it!

working9while5 Tue 12-Nov-13 13:54:05

I met some pretty cantankerous nuns in my life who I imagine could be abusive bullies to those around them, but I do think that pointing the finger of blame at nuns misses a trick.

Again, the majority of these women did not willingly make a choice to enter the nuns out of any vocation or desire to live a Christian life. They were more often than not pushed into it by their families. I know in many orders, girls had to bring dowries with them on entry - and hierarchies developed within those institutions based on dowry size, with nuns from wealthier families given privileges while those with small dowries treated as slaves and skivvies in... you guessed it, the laundries.

What you see in stories like Philomena's is often the story of deprived girls who were pushed into servitude in their late childhood/early teens, denied sexuality and the opportunity of any autonomy, unleashed on girls like Philomena they were taught to view as amoral and wicked while also probably harbouring feelings of jealousy about what they had been able to experience that these nuns had been denied e.g. sex, love, motherhood.

It's a powderkeg, really. It doesn't surprise me that some of these nuns and brothers treated people so cruelly. They were repressed and raging themselves and the whole system and its values and morals and institutions encouraged them to treat "illegitimates" and "harlots" as lesser than themselves, as animals.

I have no great love for the Catholic Church, but I think the Catholic Church gets a lot of blame in the same way that the Nazi party gets blame for the atrocities of WW2 when*the whole society* bears some culpability for buying into and going along with these abuses. Yes, the Catholic Church was very powerful in Ireland, undeniably so.. and yes, there are complex historical and social reasons behind that power, but ultimately I know that in both my mother and father's rural villages people knew what was going on with these young women and with children and young people in industrial schools and they acquiesced and shunned the vulnerable from their communities. No one held guns to anyone's heads and the whole thing was a crying shame. The fact that years afterwards, "illegitimate" mothers were still ostracised, gossiped about and outcast was also a choice made by many individual Irish people. My uncle talks of how huge numbers of the local community knew of sex abuse carried out in the orders too, how the "good parents" would make sure that their sons weren't altar boys for Brother Paedophile meaning that, as is always the case, the children from chaotic, poor and neglectful homes were often at immense risk from these predators.

The whole thing was just insane. Thank God it has passed in Ireland. Yet I agree, this will be played out elsewhere in other cultures in the name of similar values and morals. Unfortunately human beings seem to have this innate desire to harm as well as to help and at certain times in certain cultures the worst aspects of humanity come to the fore.

working9while5 Tue 12-Nov-13 13:55:24

Bump down

RossMountney Fri 15-Nov-13 13:43:54

I think it was a totally fabulous film, so sensitive and a brilliant script beautifully performed.

Characterful Sat 16-Nov-13 11:40:54

The distortion of information once Anthony was grown seems unforgivable. Sadly, what the nuns did would have been what they had been led to believe was right. That is, it wouldn't have been an individual off-the-cuff decision, but accepted practice. They probably thought they were protecting an innocent young man from an 'evil' mother, her 'sins' never ever forgiven.

ProfPlumSpeaking Sun 17-Nov-13 09:07:37

edam I am sorry that your mother's mother did not have the chance to spend 3 years with her baby (your mother) after she was born. The chance to spend 3 years with your child is some kind of miracle compared with having a baby taken at birth, probably without even the opportunity for a cuddle or even sight of the babe. Your mother's mother was just as surely "forced" into "selling" her baby as the girls at the convent: they had to give away their babies for a better life, or any life - there was no viable alternative for those poor girls before the welfare state and more enlightened attitudes.

Of course the nuns could have done better but actually they did more than anyone else to help those girls, sadly imperfect as it was. Other people did NOTHING.

moldingsunbeams Fri 24-Jan-14 14:57:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

moldingsunbeams Fri 24-Jan-14 15:17:27

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tn22 Mon 05-May-14 10:59:45

"an Irish woman forced by the Church to give up her illegitimate child for adoption" --- -whoa!!

She was forced by a couple of WOMEN, not the Church. The Church NEVER had that teaching.

"the church had told her she would be damned --". WHOA!!
She was told by a couple of WOMEN, the Church NEVER had that teaching.

Our family was taught by different orders of nuns and they were almost all wonderful, extraordinarily wonderful, people. This is a story because these few people were an anomaly - exception to the rule.

tn22 Mon 05-May-14 13:50:40

Amid all the talk about these abusive nuns, there isn't one mention --by Sixsmith or you all--of the absent FATHER of this child. It's a hit-and-run and the damage ---a child's life---is too great to take it lightly and not pull out all the stops to see the baby is well taken care of.

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