Message for Lawyers or ex Lawyers out there ....

[newmum36]

Hi there
I'm on mat leave at the moment after having ds1- I'm a lawyer who used to work in London but work out of London now. Am considering my options.
Difficult one as I'm not sure my dept are going to offer me/can offer me part time and I don't think I can go back to full time f/earning - hard to tell clients that their transaction will have to wait as you're not there on a particular day. Past experiences of part time are that everyone buries their head in the sand when the part timer isn't there, hopes for the best and then the client gets really hacked off when they don't get a service (fair enough really !) - so generally not very well managed. I've suggested they might need a PSL but they're thinking about it and they've made noises that part time just doesn't work. I Have thought about applying for PSL part time in London (have a good commute to London) maybe 3 days with a day at home but would also want to think about having no 2 by the time no 1 is 1 - (next summer). I don't really want to go back til May so I'm wondering whether just to go back to where I was and stick it out (nursery options good near me) - may never get pregnant again of course - or to find something part time in London.....What are your own experiences? I'm not a corporate lawyer and my hours are not horrible but still find it hard to contemplate going back f/t..My dh works really long hours in a busy and demanding job so I also worry that he thinks I'll become Superwoman (makes me feel knackered even thinking about it)

[KBear]

PSL part-time in London is a good option (I work for one!) Still in the loop but less pressure. You could also do a lot from home. All depends on the firm and the partners and the sort of support PS has at the firm but it can work well.

[mumblechum]

Hi, I'm a part time (20 hours pw) family specialist & it works well as I work 9.30 to 2.30, so am around for school pickup, and on the one day off, can be contacted at home in an emergency.

What's your specialism now?

[Pollyanna]

I managed to do 3 days a week in London. But I found it very difficult (I was a charities lawyer). There were long hours and my dh also worked long hours. I was always the one who had to come home and do the juggling and frankly I found it all too much. I would say that if you could split the home duties with your dh then fine, but it is very difficult if you are the one who has to do the nursery pick up/relieve the nanny every night and carry on running the house as well as holding down a job.
I am thinking of retraining as a family solicitor as I think this would be more family friendly, but it means starting from scratch and I have to think about that.

[newmum36]

I'm in property....My dh has an extremely busy job and seems incapable of doing anything remotely "adminy" relating to home life in addition to doing a job - I do everything - bills, holidays, social life, food shopping, organise the cleaner blah blah blah. Shouldn't be such a control freak and learn to delegate in an more efficient manner - however when I want something done, I'd prefer it today rather than sometime in the near future (read "never"). The nursery we've got a place at is right near my work so no chance of him doing nursery pick up for me....wouldn't like to sound bitter, more like realistic! !...I have however said that unless we can try to work out a way of managing things between us I'm not going back at all (not sure how much of a threat that is).
I quite like the PSL part time option but would not want to be somewhere a few months only to get pregnant again and have to leave 8 months later (or is that not so bad?!). On the flip side, as I am always telling my friends who have no kids and are climbing up the career ladder, I suppose you just have to plough on through and do what seems right at the time rather than worry about what might or might not happen ie that I might not get pregnant as quickly as that and may get a couple of years working in London for eg...
Sorry for the ramble, let's hope my clarity of thought returns when I go back to work !!!

[Judy1234]

All these problems are because of the defective men a lot of women marry and the women's complacency, passivity in allowing unfair models of how things are organised at home to arise. Having a penis doesn't mean you can't organise a child pick up.

[Pollyanna]

I wouldn't say it is complacency or passivity on the women's part. I wasn't at all complacent about my dh's inability to do anything other than work. I didn't know how to change it though - he would just go awol at home time and I would be completely unaware where he was and felt obliged to go and relieve the nanny so she wouldn't quit (and because I liked and respected her too). It isn't just about going home either - also about doing all those other things that need to be done to run a home during working hours. grr makes me just thinking about it.

I am going back to work now on the condition that he does the pick up.

[Uwilalalalalala]

Newmum36, sorry to crash. I'm not a lawyer. But, I thought I'd suggest you track down LisaLisa for a chat. I think she works in property. She has 5 kids. I'm not sure how many days/hours she works but from what I know of her, I think she is superwoman.

[Judy1234]

pa, but I think by you then turning up for the nanny (or a woman or man doing the dishes because the other person doesn't) you're condonding tolerating and encouraging the behaviour. If instead he is the one getting the calls from the nanny on his mobile - where are you and having a few eveings and he has sole charge of replacing her when she leaves it will soon get through to someone that they ought to be reliable. It's when they know their wife or husband will always step into the breach that the other person shirks a responsibility.

[KristinaM]

oh xenia, get off her case! she is asking for advice about work, not how to retrain her DH

[Mumpbump]

If you move jobs, I would have thought you might be less likely to achieve your goal of no.2 by the time no.1 is 1 as you'll have to work a minimum of 1 year to be entitled to even SMP. But I don't know what your family finances are like.

If I were in your position, I would push for a psl position at your place of work and, if they won't help you out, ask to work part-time or work from home for a day or so a week. You'll be aware of the "flexible working hours for childcare purposes" legislation, I'm sure. If you're looking at leaving anyway, does it matter if your practice gets a bit messed up as long as you can keep it going until you fall pregnant again. Better to have a clean run at the next job if you're likely to stay there long-term.

Not terribly honourable, perhaps, but I figure that if employers aren't supportive to you, then there is no obligation on you to be supportive to them!

[newmum36]

Thanks Xenia for your advice - hmm, oh for a perfect world ... I will be taking the path of least resistance contrary to all my views on sharing responsibilities, as wet as this may sound (and if you met me you would not think I was wet I can assure you). I've tried bluntly asking ("career bitch" mode - is that the way you talk to people at work??) I've tried the "asking nicely" (gets done next week not now), I've tried the "would you mind if" (don't ask me in that way I know this translates as "do it now") , I've tried not asking to see if it gets done (ha ! ha!!) but I'm afraid I am probably in a "lose, lose" position. At the end of the day part of me congratulates myself on being able to cope with a lot pretty well (unlike dh) and the other part of me feels exhausted by it. Yes, I could go down the route of life falling apart for a while to see what happens when I don't do it and to prove a point to dh ( I used to go on strike regularly), but you know what, I can't be bothered with it any more. I love my husband very much and would actually rather he be there with me by my side despite his failings in the domestic department than not be there at all....
Any other career as oppose to man training advice warmly welcomed.

[newmum36]

PS, Mumpbump, I think I might be erring on the side of your advice....I may try to convince them of putting in place that sort of role for me - I've worked where they have PSL's so I am au fait with their function. I may work on a "business plan" for it in the new year (the word "budgets" was mentioned from our head of department)..

[Uwilalalalalala]

I think mump bump is right. Treat the company with the very same loyalty they show you. And if the maternity package is nice, milk them for all you can get. Then, consider a career move to another company who won't go on to be bitter about your maternity leave. I REALLY REALLY think you should talk to LISALISA. You could probably find her on a CAT.

[judemum]

I also agree- am litigator, used to work in London now out in the regions. DH also a litigator. Had DS1 just under 2 years ago. Came back to work f/t, but knoew it was short term and just dug in - they can't sack you for having to go and collect your child and actually despite being a very male orientated dept. were generally pretty understanding. Now about to have DS2 and am departing for pastures new- might teach LPC... think it it definately going to be too hard with 2 children and I tend to agree that being ap/t lawyer just does nto work in practice. Too stressful. Good luck- I was in the same dilemma last summer!

[Donbean]

Although not a laywer or any thing vaguely similar in profession i think that the problems you face are very common for any women going back to work.
I was in a similar position in that my work place holds no affection for part time workers.
However, this was an option open to me, this was the choice i made and this was what i did.
Now 3 years down the line every thing has slotted into place nicely.
I have no time nor comment to make to coleagues with an issue with "part timers", i have made this very clear.
Having worked in my current emloyment for 10 years prior to having my baby, i had put life and soul into my work, progressed and worked my ass off.
As soon as my baby arrived, it all went totally out of the window and for the last 3 years i have buried my head in the sand, i am now surfacing....with vengance!!!
It was all consuming, keeping the house running, juggling child care, work time and family time.
I am no walkover, i am no submissive little woman.
I just get on with it.
You just have to i suppose.

[plibble]

Newmum- you sound just like me!

I don't know the answer for you, but I have decided that, for the moment anyway, I want to keep fee earning. I'm in pensions at a corporate firm and at least 70% of my workload is normally transaction related. I realised before I went on leave that I needed to get some certainty about hours, even though I still wanted to work full time. My DH would pick up Mini-plibble, but he works overseas pretty much every week and swoops home on Thursday night so it is all down to me. In practical terms (although not emotionally) it is like being a single parent.

I ended up agreeing with work that I would be in the office from 9-5 and otherwise would work from home. While my bosses seem dubious about whether this could work, I can think of no reason why I can't do the same job from home. After all, an awful lot of time on all-nighters is spent sitting about waiting for the other side to come up with their wording/take instructions etc and I can just as easily do that from my sofa. I have been frantically training Mini-Plibble to go to bed at 7, so I can then get on with work. Obviously, since we operate a 24/7 office, my bosses weren't keen, but I arranged this on a trial basis which at least gives me time to get back into work. Personally I would rather go back to a job and a department I know so that I can get used to being in the office again than go straight into a new job from leave. Better the devil you know and all that...

For what it's worth, I have found that firms find it hard (as it would be pretty unreasonable) to say no to a different working arrangement if you propose a trial period of, say, 3 or 6 months. At least that can buy you some time to decide what you really want to do or just to get pregnant again!

On a different note, if you are not wedded to fee earning, have you thought about going in-house? I could imagine lots of companies must need in-house property specialists.

[Pollyanna]

(I think Xenia was advising me about training my dh, not Newmum.) I agree that you should stay where you are, particularly if you are planning to have more children. As a property lawyer there is at least the possibility of flexibility. I would say, that I have found that a nanny enables you to juggle work and family much more easily than nursery.

[blueshoes]

newmum, you've already had really good advice so haven't much to add.

I have the same control freaky tendencies (and derive inordinate satisfaction from organising childcare and household admin). But whether you work ft or pt, you still need a little flexibility for unforeseen contingencies where you cannot do the nursery drop off or pick up. Or you might want to stay later for a function every now and then? ie can your dh be your back up in at least these limited circumstances. At dd's nursery, I see lots of fathers doing the school runs, with varying frequency.

If dh cannot or if you are fee-earning or working ft, then I think give a nanny some more consideration. They are great for flexibility.

Or investigate nurseries near your home, rather than work, so your dh has less excuse to shirk! Also, when you are on maternity with no.2, it is more convenient if you are dropping your ds near home. And if you do go for the job in London, it is less disruption for ds.

[newmum36]

Thank you all. I'll have a good long think and chat with work. Good to know others have gone through the same experiences.

[fridayschild]

If you are planning another child soon, I would stick with your current firm and try part time, to keep any enhanced maternity benefits. If it really doesn't work then hey? you just do what you are thinking about now, and move to psl work somewhere else

I say this from my perspective as a property lawyer in a national firm. We have part time property fee earners doing transactional work in some of our offices but not all; the attitude of the partners in the office in question seems to be the key rather than the clients or the transactional nature of the work.

you might also want to think about how long it would take you to get back to a sick child from your office if you moved to London work

[meb2006]

newmum36 what happened about this? And does anyone know how to find LisaLisa - I am PSL and going back soon and would love to hear how other lawyers have coped with this.

[Dinosaur]

LisaLisa is not a PSL, although I am .

[meb2006]

Dinosaur - hi! are you in the city - what do you do? I am about to go back to work in a few months and having problems regarding flexible working - my firm has a real issue about not wanting psls working from home even though fee earners do this and IMO the job is ideal for this (my role is heavily document orientated). What work pattern do you have and how does this fit round your children? Have you changed your hours as your children have got older? There is one lady at my firm who works full time and has a 3 year old and has done since the baby was 9 months but i don't think i could cope with f/t in the office all week and baby care after work - there would be absolutely no "me" time at all. Happy to take the discussion off line if you prefer.

[Dinosaur]

I'm a Corporate PSL and I work four days a week (not Wednesdays). I leave the office at about 5.45 p.m. unless I absolutely have to stay later than that. I do sometimes take work home and do it after the children have gone to bed.

Some of our PSLs work at home one day a week. Why does your firm have such an issue with this? If you are available online or by phone, why is it such a big deal?