# Talk

## Help me prove/disprove my theory please!

(149 Posts)
pugsandseals Wed 29-Jul-09 11:40:47

If you have a G&T registered child, when is their birthday? I have a theory that the younger ones are less likely to be picked as they have to prove they are 2 years (not 1) ahead of their peers to be considered?

ByTheSea Wed 29-Jul-09 11:45:03

DD1's birthday is at the end of May. She is at the top of her year group of 68 in every subject and is on the G&T register.

pugsandseals Wed 29-Jul-09 11:50:03

How far ahead do you think she is roughly?

Wed 29-Jul-09 12:51:56

Both September babies

singersgirl Wed 29-Jul-09 13:27:55

The information inthis document and this document doesn't specifically raise G&T identification, but does mention the statistically significant lower outcomes of younger children in the cohort. The single most important factor in children's achievement in key stage tests is their age on the date of the test.

franklymydear Wed 29-Jul-09 13:30:53

one of my children is feb born and whilst he is over 2 years ahead of his age in Maths judging by SATs scores and 1 and a half year ahead in literacy he is not on the G&T register at school due to the cohort he's in. There are 2 supremely talented sports children, 1 extremely musical and a couple of other clever kids so he didn't make it in reception and hasn't made it since cos you can't take a kid off the register can you?

to prove how pathetic G&T is one of my other children IS on the register and is May born has been on since nursery - creative G&T supposedly

its all a pile of tosh

Wed 29-Jul-09 13:35:17

No I have two late July children both of whom are on G&T register. (And a Feb child who also is.)
But G&T registered is extremely subjective as has often been pointed out here. Top 10% of one school might be somewhere in the middle of another. Of my July children however:
DD1 has just finished Yr 7 and is in the top three or four of her year group of 300 children for nearly every subject. She was reading before she started school and all that malarky.
DD3 has just finished year 2 so who knows. But also reading since before she started school and all that.

shouldweorshouldntwe Wed 29-Jul-09 13:43:47

Sorry but I agree with Frankly. G&T is the biggest pile of rubbish ever. How can it possibly be anything else if its just the top 10%. The top 10% in our local 'sink' school - Gifted and talented?????

sarah293 Wed 29-Jul-09 13:50:14

Message withdrawn

singersgirl Wed 29-Jul-09 13:56:20

Yes, yes, yes, all your anecdotes about your own children are interesting (have able August-born boys myself) but I have linked to statistical data which bears out the OP's point .

Of course some summer-born children are on the G&T register. But far more autumn-born children are on it.

Wed 29-Jul-09 16:14:27

Yes agree SG, but the OP was specifically asking for anecdotal "evidence" from MNers.

snorkle Wed 29-Jul-09 16:45:49

http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SBU/b000731/Bweb01-2007.pdf This study]] on page 100, has a table showing percentages of autumn, spring, and summer born year 8 children identified as G&T and it is much less of a difference than singersgirl's primary school figures. 12.7% (autumn), 11.7% (spring), and 11.0% summer.

Interestingly it also shows that there are more autumn borns than summer borns as a percentage of the cohort: 38.3% instead of 29.8%, so the birth rate isn't homogeneous (autumn born defined as sept-dec; spring born as jan-apr and summer born as may-aug).

snorkle Wed 29-Jul-09 16:46:29

pugsandseals Wed 29-Jul-09 18:12:36

Very interesting stats singer! I am particularly interested in the first few years at school as I believe this is when older children are picked. It may just be that schools have had more time to get to know them (starting earlier etc), but I do believe schools are less likely to keep reviewing through primary as they already have their required few for their stats!

DS is July born, at least a year or two ahead of his class in all subjects save maths in which he's several years ahead, but...

It doesn't take a whole load of government stats to prove that 2+2=4. Older children in the year are more likely to work at a higher level.

shouldweorshouldntwe, first of all it's not top 10%, it varies from school to school. The general idea is not that the Register children are geniuses but that genius is more likely to reside in this group and they are more likely to be discovered if they are put through a proper implementation of the G&T programme.

That's the idea.

In reality I doubt many teachers even know that they are meant to choose based on ability, not achievement. If they did their job properly the stats should show a fairly even distribution even in primary.

choccyp1g Wed 29-Jul-09 23:01:12

My DS is February born, and has always been about 3 years ahead on Maths ability. On achievement at school he sits at the top of the top group, who ALL find what they do pretty easy. Up to year 2, I did notice his maths group was all September borns except him. In year 3 things have changed a bit, I think it is now all boys except one, but some of them are younger.

choccyp1g Wed 29-Jul-09 23:02:20

As far as G&T goes, his school just do not acknowledge it to parents.

DD was born in June. Identified as a teen as being in top 5% nationally and put on G&T for many subjects. Didn't stand out before that though I always thought she was bright.

So this doesn't prove or disprove your theory. Problem we have now is that as it's come easy in recent years she doesn't realise that she has to work to get the grades and many others who put the work in will do better.

It's a load of bollocks, I agree.

singersgirl Thu 30-Jul-09 00:11:44

Interesting to see the Year 8 data, Snorkle, and also interesting about the difference in size of the respective cohorts. However, the overall secondary school rate from the 2008 National Register I linked to reflects the primary school differences. Not that it matters, really. It's clear that the effect of age is more important the younger the child.

Anecdotally DS2 has always been the only child born after Christmas in the extension maths group (3 September birthdays, 2 December, 1 August), for the first 2 years was the only child born after Christmas in the top reading group (2 September, 2 December, 1 August) and is still, at the end of Y3, the only child born after March in that group. DS1 was always the only summer-born boy in top reading groups and extension maths groups, though there were a couple of summer-born girls. Being a summer-born boy is a double-whammy.

ByTheSea Thu 30-Jul-09 09:41:38

Sorry pugsandseals, I've been offline since yesterday. DD1 is in just finished year 5 and was assessed at level 5B in Reading, Writing, Maths and 5C in science (according to her teacher, they just haven't covered the material yet to achieve any higher). She is very bright, but I would say she's really only truly gifted at writing -- she has a wonderful way with words. Her maths teacher calls her a talented mathemetician as well though.

DD2-7 (also May birthday) is in the top 10% in her year as well in all her subjects, according to her Year 2 SATs/T.A. but I don't know whether she's on the G&T register. She is reading very well though.

franklymydear Thu 30-Jul-09 11:18:22

I disagree

Firstly it is the top 10% in the year. What happens to the 11th percentile or the 12th? What about the ones who aren't identified? What about the fact that top 10% in one school is not the same as in another school?

and secondly its a political salve designed by politicians for political purposes and to reassure parents that their "bright" children will not be missed at school.

tosh tosh and thrice tosh

juuule Thu 30-Jul-09 11:30:55

4 out of 5 of mine were put on G&T register at secondary school (G&T didn't exist for eldest dc). Out of those 4, one was put forward for membership of NAGTY (now YG&T).

Birthdays in Feb,June,Sept,Oct.

juuule Thu 30-Jul-09 11:33:02

Eldest birthday April. Just completed his BSc Hons Astrophysics degree

pugsandseals Thu 30-Jul-09 11:35:52

Hmm, this is part of the problem I have with G&T. Schools need to declare some may well disadvantage others. I also think that it is only natural for the older ones to be noticed first and put on the register making it much more difficult for younger ones to get on the list at a later date (it might otherwise muck up their stats)!
My reason for asking is that DD is changing schools in September, and the new headteacher has told us from her initial assessment that there is no question, had she done year 2 with them she would have been G&T. We will wait and see if he puts her on the list for year 3, but it seems likely.
As for her old school, there was only 1 G&T who was older in the year. I cannot quite get away with thinking it has been overlooked in infants because she is an August & didn't have the opportunity to show her talents until decisions on G&T had already been made.
Just trying to work out how much has been DD's hard work in year 2 & how much was already there if that makes any sense?

juuule Thu 30-Jul-09 11:40:27

If it's any consolation being on the G&T register doesn't seem to make much difference to the child anyway Or at least not at our school. Maybe different at other schools. Teachers know who is capable of what without referring to a register. I think that the register may be for the school's benefit.

As I've said not being on the register hasn't held back my eldest and being identified G&T didn't ensure that the others fulfilled expectations. Their teachers assisted with that for those willing to learn.

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