Asynchronous Development

[Lima1]

Hi just wondering if any of you have experience with this and can give me some advice. DS is 8.5 yrs and has always been a good bit ahead intellectually. While his brightness can be very rewarding I do think it has come at a cost. He started getting serious tantrums at about 2.5 years old. I have an older (DD10 ) and younger (DS7) child and many many nieces, nephews and friend's kids in and around the same ages so I have a fair idea of the ranges of normal behaviour.

His tantrums were exceptional, he would easily scream for 45mins at a time a number of times a day over nothing. He used to follow me around the house going crazy. This went on for years and was so bad I ended up with a terrible panic attack disorder. I contacted a child behavioural specialist and she concluded that he was developing intellectually very quickly but emotionally and socially was very immature.

Anyway things have gotten better but he is still a very trying child. He is very emotionally immature, stubborn and still prone to bad tantrums.
He tries to control most situations and struggles to cope when he isn't allowed. I have him in loads of sports and TBH sports are not his strong suit but I think they are very important for many reasons.
Last night he was playing a match which is usually a source of tension for my DH and me.
So last night this is what happened:

• He argued with the coach about what position he wanted to play (despite multiple warnings from DH and me not to dare to this and just go where he is told)
• he played ok for the first half but then had no concentration for the second half and wandered around the pitch taking no interest in the game. Normally he is only allowed to play a short period and is always the sub which I hate as he is the only one that gets little game time, so his lack of interest/concentration last night only served to give the coach an excuse to bench him in the future. He played the full game as they were missing players.
• he is the smallest player on the team and an opposing team player called him small and said he couldn't play football. Instead of shrugging it off DS proceeded to roar crying, went around telling his coaches and interrupting the game and generally made a massive deal out of it. All the coaches got involved, the players were spoken to, it turned into a big drama (DS wouldn't tell anyone what he said bar the child insulted him so I think everyone thought he said something much worse)

Everything is a drama with him and he will manipulate situations all the time to try to get his own way. If DD10 or DS7 is bold I can give out, give a punishment and we can move on. DS8 will push and push until I snap. He doesn't care about any punishment, I bought him an Xbox last year simply so I could take it away as a punishment. Currently he has lost the use of it for the next 2 weeks and he couldn't care less.

He has amazing concentration at times, if he gets a new Lego set he can build it for hours. He was building pieces for 16+ at 4/5 years of age but cant remember to brush his teeth in the morning.
I could give examples all day.

Do I just have to wait for things to level out or is there anything I can do to help him along?

I worry his immaturity will affect his friendships. His friends see these tearful tantrums and they look at him like he is a bold 2 year old.
My nephew has some special needs and I supported my sister through all the assessment of needs etc so I am very familiar will all the characteristics and signs of autism, ADHD, ODD etc and while yes you could pick out one or two characteristics he definitely doesn't have special needs.
I love to know if your child was like this and when (if ever) it levelled out.
Thanks

[jaws5]

Hi OP, I have PMd you.

[jaws5]

also, my son is extremely absent minded and I have to remind him to wash hands, put shoes on, clean teeth...

One of the questions the Dr asked was, can he follow instructions with several steps, eg. "go upstairs, change clothes, pick them up and put them in basket". Mine will go upstairs...

[DaffodilsBlowingInTheWind]

We have the same thing. It is definitely a challenge- watching with interest

[springmadness10]

We have exactly the same with our 7.5yr old. Also watching with interest as we're clueless. Lots of people think he's on the autistic spectrum and lots think gifted and asynchronous development. I've no idea anymore.

[gfrnn]

Have a look at twice exceptionality, in particular the table of characteristics half way down the article.
Also executive functions.

[Lima1]

Thanks Jaws pm'ed you.
Thanks gfrn he would have a good few of those characteristics of 2e. He does preform well in school, his school work is to a high standard and almost always gets 100% on every test.

His main problem is stubbornness and trying to control everything and general immature behaviour and responses.
This morning he was playing with lego at the table and I told him to stop playing with it and that he needed to get ready for school. He told me he wasn't playing with it but only touching it. I said its the same thing and that he needed to stop. He then proceeded to try to engage me into an argument about the differences between touching the lego and playing with it but I shut him down as this is his way of trying to control the situation and its a delaying tactic. This is a constant thing with him.

He dawdles every morning and is constantly daydreaming.

If he feels hard done by it will lead to massive crying tantrums, he doesn't care where he is or who is watching (even his friends).
DS who is 17 mths younger would be more socially aware and would be conscious of embarrassing himself in front of his friends.

[jaws5]

I totally relate to the argument about the lego. Exactly the same here about everything, which leads to lots of tension and arguments. I can never contradict myself about anything as he will accuse me of hypocrisy, even about something I said or did months ago, it is exhausting and upsetting.

[jaws5]

have you consulted a child psychologist?

[Lima1]

Lol Jaws, they certainly keep you on your toes don't they?
DS is a total pedant, he loves to pick us up on incorrect uses of words. He will often say "well you don't mean that exactly do you?". I am a lawyer and regularly cross examine people and honestly I have to use the best of my cross examination skills to tie him down to something!

He is like Jekyll and Hyde, when he is good he is super and the nicest child to be around, he is very caring and thoughtful but when he is in his stubborn mode he is a nightmare.

I have been thinking about a child psychologist for a while now to help me to manage him when he is in these moods. I have attended a few public meetings about managing behaviour and I bought a few books. The all say to remain consistent and not lose your temper but myself and DH always laugh and say give them a few hours with him and they would change their tunes, its definitely easier said than done.
Have you ever been to one?

[Lima1]

Jaws scrap that last question, I know the answer!

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

My DS was asynchronous in his development. He was a late talker but advanced in other ways. The late talking didn’t bother us as a family. I somehow always understood what he wanted to communicate. However his first teacher found the combination of immature speech development and intensely felt emotions very challenging.

In the case of your DS, it sounds like his difficulties are arising from his strong desire to be in charge of his environment. This is a characteristic that might propel him towards leadership roles as an adult or occupations in which he can be his own boss but for the moment it’s only causing frustration for both of you.

My suggestion would be to actually give him a little more control in some situations so that tensions don’t build up. For example, when he is supposed to be getting ready for school and he’s playing with Lego, tell him that if he manages to get ready in advance of leaving time and he really is all set to go, he can play for a few minutes. All good leaders need to be able to recognise a good, fair deal and honour it!

The other aspect I think is significant is your focus on sport when, as you acknowledge, your DS isn’t very good at it. Sport can provide opportunities to improve social skills, learn about teamwork, cultivate self-discipline and master the art of being gracious in defeat. Yet, my contention would be, that other activities might be better vehicles to bring all these good things into your DS’s life, if he's not that sporty.

Take self-discipline. It certainly requires self-discipline to accept that you won’t always be picked for the team. And for a boy who is occasionally not picked, this seems a good way to cultivate this particular attribute. But a boy that is just about always on the bench is being asked to grapple with emotions and feelings of resentment that might just be too overwhelming to make it a good setting in which to learn self-discipline.

Football culture in particular can be elitist. In my DS’s primary school, the top dog footballers wouldn’t let the perceived untalented take part in playground football games. The boy hierarchy was dictated by football ability and sporting prowess in general.

But you and your DS don’t need to buy into this sort of thing! If he wants to do a sport, maybe he would prefer mountain biking or climbing or some other non-team, less obviously competitive, sport. If he likes Lego, he might like group den building as a physical activity – my DS used to love both. And why not suggest to his school that they set up a Lego club? He would be able to showcase his creativity and perhaps flex his leadership muscles helping younger, or less-proficient, attendees. Maybe he would enjoy a coding club too.

I have an engineering friend who likes Lego and has a car festooned with little Lego people. Maybe your DS will be heading off in an engineering direction when he’s older - in which case the 3D construction skills gained playing with Lego will be more useful than those gained kicking a ball up and down a muddy field!

[Mogleflop]

Out of interest, why have you ruled out ASD? Everything you've written here rings that bell for me.

If it's in the family there's a strong chance anyway. It could exhibit very differently from your nephew?

[fleshmarketclose]

Yes like Moglflop your post screams ASD to me as well and having two dc with autism who are polar opposites in every way (fascinated their paediatrician because of it) I can tell you that it is very unlikely that any other child you meet with autism will present exactly like your nephew so you shouldn't use his presentation to rule it out.

[gfrnn]

One interpretation:
The tantrums, socially inappropriate responses and impulsive behaviour (ignoring warnings, not caring about punishments) suggest weaknesses in the executive functions associated with emotional regulation and inhibitory control. The fluctuating attention, daydreaming etc. suggest weaknesses in the executive functions associated with attentional control. Weaknesses in executive functions can be problematic in themselves. They can also be associated with conditions including ADHD, ASD. These conditions can present atypically, especially in a very bright child whose ability allows them to compensate in some situations. Many twice-exceptional children go undiagnosed.
I think what several of us are alluding to is that its better to keep an open mind than to say he definitely doesn't have any special need because to categorically rule this out without good reason raises the possibility that something important may be missed. I would suggest looking for input from a child clinical psychologist. The book "smart but scattered" is also relevant.
Re: sports, regular aerobic exercise improves executive functions but he's unlikely to excel in team sports and putting him in football when he's the smallest and the sub is putting him in a situation which is likely to trigger his worst behaviour. I'd suggest looking at individual sports : swimming, athletics, gymnastics/trampolining, fencing, martial arts are some possibilities.

[missyB1]

Sorry but he sounds exactly like my friend’s ds who is suspected Aspergers. You’ve literally described him to a tee.

[RueDeWakening]

You've just described my 8 year old, who is 2e and diagnosed with ASD and ADHD earlier this year.

[wizzywig]

Asynchronous? Is that the same as having a spiky profile?

[gfrnn]

@wizzywig some info:
www.nagc.org/resources-publications/resources/social-emotional-issues/asynchronous-development

You can be asynchronous without being twice-exceptional - twice exceptional generally implies asynchronous but not vice versa.
Twice-exceptional kids often have a very spiky profile so spiky can suggest twice exceptional but is not definitive or diagnostic on its own.

[Hawkmoth]

My children all have an uneven profile. One physically gifted but non verbal so far, the others talk like adults but lack basic skills such as emotional regulation, personal care and coordination (12yo excels at school but needs her shoes tying every morning). None of them are the commonly accepted presentation of autism but one is diagnosed and the others are close to decisions.

Your son sounds like my eldest is at home. We think PDA is a good fit for her, might be worth some research.

[myidentitymycrisis]

my ds was like this at 8. very bright, early talker and slow physically and quite immature emotionally and socially (great with adults poor with peers)
I dont think asynchronous development was a thing then (he's now 23)
but he was dx with Aspergers aged 12. My brother was the same but Aspergers wasn't a thing then.
God I remember the not being able to get ready at 12.
Evened out eventually. had his first friend around 12/13 and consciously worked at not being a nerd in his later teens.
Seems well adjusted now and thinks he doesn't have ASD admits was definitely a bit weird.

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

Some interesting research has been carried out on brain maturation in gifted children. The pattern of brain development is rather different in gifted children than it is in other children. At the age of 8 – the age of the OP’s DS – the pre-frontal cortex is actually thinner than it is for other children. The pre-frontal cortex is associated with functions such as impulse control, the regulation of emotions and social skills.

This part of the brain takes longer to thicken in gifted children - before it undergoes thinning and pruning in the teens - and it has been suggested that this is why they can look weak in these areas in the early years relative to other children.

//www.blogs.edweek.org/teachers/unwrapping_the_gifted/2010/02/what_brain_imaging_shows_us_ab.html

[moominmomma1234]

I would suggest googling PDA (pathological demand avoidance). It is a type of ASD which anxiety is caused by lack of control and demands being placed on them. We suspect my 4yo ds has this. If you decide this is not the correct diagnosis for your son then it may still be worth while reading some tips on how to phrase demands to a child with PDA; it may help. I have to use reverse psychology and be very tactful with everything I ask of him otherwise we get a meltdown. Each day is very challenging and everything the family does is governed by his mood that day.
My 4yo with PDA is not the gifted one, btw. I use this forum for tips for my 10yr old ds who has high IQ with HFA/aspergers. He doesnt have meltdowns like your son, but he can behave immature compared to his peers and I think if the other mums at the school gates knew just how clever he is then they would be shocked because they think he is a bit daft and silly!

[moominmomma1234]

oh forgot to add that even though PDA is ASD they still can have good social skills. No discipline works on my son. We have tried it all: reward/punishment/ignoring/time out. He doesnt care for any of it, I could dangle an ice-cream in front of him as a reward for picking up one toy off the floor but he won't even respond to that!! There is no negotiate or meet in the middle either.
My son doesnt have the verbal skills to try and blag his way out of chores like your son does but I have read that blagging/distracting is a PDA trait and they can be very good at it. jekyll and Hyde is often a term used in this house. We are 1 year into our assessment for PDA/ASD we will find out in sept if he is or not. Personally I am hoping he is not and he is just a stubborn kid. but instincts are saying its PDA/ASD.

[Lima1]

Hi thanks so much for all the replies and really interesting perspectives and stories. I haven't been on since as I have been unwell.

I suppose I said definitely no to special needs as I do know its pretty much universally put forward as a reason for different behaviour and I have been through 2 assessment of needs with my nephew and many years of research into special needs disorders.
I have been looking out for good examples of his behaviour to write down and this happened last week.
I got a little pot of spinach from Lidl to grow at home. The drive from Lidl home takes 25 mins. For 20 mins of the trip DS asked me question after question about the spinach pot - eg what the pot was made from, how long it would take to grow, exact instructions on how to grow it, what the spinach would taste like ..... I mean literally 50 questions about this one thing.
It had a label on it and he was asking me what germination date meant, what did "repot" mean.. At this point I burst out laughing and said I couldn't believe he could think up of so many questions to ask about one thing. He laughed and said "that's nothing mammy I can think of a million more. How did you learn what "repot" means, have you ever repotted something, what was it, how old were you, have you done it since ....." all the while laughing and thinking he was great.

I think if you were to listen to the initial conversation it would seem that he was fixated on the subject which of course could seem like a trait of autism but I think the way he carried on the conversation afterwards negates against that??
I think his behaviour is more immature and deliberate than something he cant control.

My nephew shows some signs of PDA/ODD and would show a lot of anxiety if asked to do something. DS would have shown some signs when he was younger and definitely phrasing a "demand" differently helped, eg instead of saying "DS put your toys away" I would say "DS will you be a big help to mammy and put your toys away". I still find this works really well for him now.

Re the sports, he does individual sports too including dancing, swimming and gymnastics.
He played a football match last night, he focused the whole game, ran around, tackled and got the ball a few times, no arguing with the coach and he really tried. They won and he was in a group of 4 kids afterwards hugging each other and jumping up and down and he was ecstatic and I suppose that's why I encourage him into the team sports.
Thanks again for all the input ;)

[user789653241]

Following this thread with interest.
OutwiththeOut, that's really interesting. I just had conversation with my dh that he thinks my ds has childhood dementia.
He has tantrum over something so minor at home but remain model student at school. Seems like he tries so hard at school to conform he blow up at home.
Teachers say they regularly forget he is 10 years old when they are talking to him, but he acts like 3 at home.