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grrr... comprehensive maths

104 replies

vrijeme · 19/07/2017 11:50

Just a rant.. I'm expecting the comprehensive enthusiasts to violently disagree with me.

DS1 is in year 10, Ds2 in year 8. Both excel at maths. For the second year running, DS1 got a merit on the UKMT Kangaroo. DS2 got his first merit on the junior kangaroo. Both achieved the best scores in the school, not just for their year.
Additionally, DS1 has the head of the maths dept teaching him and got a near perfect score on some recent big exams. DS2 also tends to come top, or second top (there's another boy just as good as him). Ds1 has no one who comes close with results etc.
DS1 is very bored in maths lessons. The teacher/ HoD knows and says he will do something about it, but never does. I've spoken to him 4 times over three years, so there's no way that he's unaware.
DS1 feels that the lessons aren't for him and that its a punishment being made to sit there listening to the same stuff over and over.
However, i understand the teacher's position about the number of times he needs to go over things again.
DS1 has a talent for maths but its going to waste because he is so unhappy in maths lessons that he's beginning to really dislike the subject. the teacher knows this too.
Now to the point of my rant. Both boys were due certificates for the UKMT merits. The HoD held onto them for ages (months). I wondered if maybe he was saving the for the awards evening.
But no. Neither boy got any recognition at the awards evening. Someone who achieves approx 25% lower scores in maths than DS1 got the maths award - he posted his photo with it online.
As to the UKMT certificate, the HOD stopped DS1 in the corridor a couple of days ago and gave it to him. Ds2 was given his yesterday, tucked into his maths homework.

The school is proudly comprehensive. I'd argue that they don't understand the meaning of comprehensive, because it seems that outliers are excluded.

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jellyandsoup · 19/07/2017 11:57

I am all for celebrating effort but it is totally unfair not to celebrate true success as well. Have you spoken to the school about it?

vrijeme · 19/07/2017 12:31

I spoke to the teacher a week or two after the UKMT results came out. The conversation was me asking the teacher to think of some way to engage Ds1 just once in while. I suggested that maybe the recent UKMT result was worth a mention, and the teacher agreed saying it was a big deal (I can't remember how he phrased it). If you count shoving the certificate into his hand as he went past in a corridor three months later with the words "well done", then he followed through.

I also spoke to the teacher again two weeks ago to ask for his advice on where best to send Ds1 to do A levels. He suggested that Ds1 would be best off on his A level classes. Again the conversation tailed off into how unchallenging the lessons are for Ds1. Again the teacher said that was unacceptable for someone with Ds's "talent" (his word) and he'd do something about it. He didn't.

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vrijeme · 19/07/2017 12:33

I'm actually really irritated about it. It would be easier if he just said he can't do anything, or even doesn't want to do anything and give a reason.

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vrijeme · 19/07/2017 12:34

still ranting.... because what message is he giving Ds1? That he's a nuisance for finding the work too easy and that his achievements are not worth noting but other people's lesser achievements are.

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vrijeme · 19/07/2017 12:34

bloody comprehensive education!

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Lurkedforever1 · 19/07/2017 12:45

I don't have anything constructive to offer, but I hear you.

Would they at least agree to him not having to join in with the lessons? Even if he has to physically be in the classroom he could at least be allowed to read, or do work/revision for another subject. If they can't or won't let him progress in class, then it would be better to at least not put him off the subject entirely by boring him to tears.

vrijeme · 19/07/2017 12:51

I've asked, and the teacher said no.
I then tried asked what if he does the work and then does some UKMT type questions, quietly on his own. The teacher said no to that too.

I understand why the lessons have to be so slow moving. What i really, realy mind is how the teacher treated Ds1 getting that UKMT merit. i can't think of a single good reason to to justify that at all. I think the teacher betrayed something about himself there.

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noblegiraffe · 20/07/2017 01:18

Why have you banged on about comprehensive education in your posts which have nothing to do with comprehensive education? Confused

You're pissed off they didn't get their certificate in assembly. Reasonable. You're pissed off that they're not allowed to do extension work in lessons. Reasonable. But nothing to do with comprehensive education.

For your Y10 lad - many comps offer further or additional maths at GCSE to stretch the most able, ask the school about putting him in for it. Was the exam he got a perfect score in a full GCSE paper? If so, he should be fine for a 9 but there are also lots of stretching resources on the internet aimed at grade 9 candidates.

JustRichmal · 20/07/2017 09:24

Unfortunately not every school does differentiate for the outliers. This is precisely the reason dd did GCSE before starting secondary. In primary, the going over and over things she had learnt a year or two back was putting her off maths. She s now allowed to go at her own pace, by herself, in lessons.

Noble, if you or MRZ had been her teacher in primary, I would not have seen doing GCSE early as the only solution to get her out of the boredom of maths lessons.

vrijeme, I'm sorry I do not have an answer for your problem and can only say we went through the same, but in primary. I would also say to those with children in primary who are heading for the same situation that we have not regretted the decision to have dd take GCSE early and dd now loves maths again.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 20/07/2017 09:42

Dh (now a maths prof) had a fairly similar experience in many ways and he was at a grammar. If they are seriously good at maths they will be above the typical grammar standard just as they will be above comprehensive top set, so I think the type of school is a red herring.
I totally understand your frustration about the certificates and maths prize but this is something you and they need to rise above. You know what these results mean, they don't need school to validate it. As for the maths prize, schools often give out prizes to people who have for example made particular progress or who they feel needs the encouragement.
The lessons are more of an issue. It is not fair on your dc to be made to work at such an inappropriate level. I think you need to wear them down - go in and ask for another meeting until something is done. Your suggestion of them doing the work then challenge type questions on their own is eminently reasonable and I would want a good reason why this can't be done.

bruffin · 20/07/2017 10:27

From what i remember about your posts in the past, your ds has never engaged in the class from day 1, never shown an interest or taken part, which is probably why he doesnt get awards.

vrijeme · 20/07/2017 13:31

Was the exam he got a perfect score in a full GCSE paper? yes and he finished it in half the allocated time

I've "banged on about comprehensive" because its the mixed ability nature of the school that means the teacher has no time or interest in doing anything at all for Ds's needs.

Yes, he should get a level 9. He knows enough for sure, but there's always the possibility of making a few stupid mistakes or not giving clear enough explanations in his workings. (he jumps a line sometimes because he thinks its so obvious that they can't possibly want that much detail).

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vrijeme · 20/07/2017 13:34

He's shy. He tends not to put his hands up. I'm not sure if you remeber me or another poster though.
There are two maths awards - effort and attainment. He got far and away the best absolute scores results whatever way you slice and dice it, but I would never say he should be considered for the effort award until he has scope to do something that requires effort.
TBH they can do what they like with their awards - but FGS hand over the certificate in a way that's better than fishing it out of the bottom of your desk as you clear it out for summer and putting it in his hands as you pass him in a corridor.

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SaltyMyDear · 20/07/2017 13:35

At my DSs grammar only one child got into the kangaroo round.

So I really dont think this is a comprehensive problem. He'd be above the level a grammar school teaches as well.

In fact in DSs grammar they don't even stream or set. So his maths class isn't particularly good. No better than top set of a comp.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 20/07/2017 14:12

Why is it so important that they give him the certificate in a formal way? Obviously public acclaim is nice but ultimately it's not why they did it and the reward is in the actual result rather than everyone clapping as you go up to get the piece of paper. The most important thing is that the school gives them the opportunity to do these things in the first place. The presentation of the certificate is relatively unimportant and I think you are blowing it out of proportion.

vrijeme · 20/07/2017 14:31

It is important to make it feel like an achievement (that does not have to be public - any suggestions for another way?). At the moment, the only person who has said to Ds1 that it is something to be proud of, is me .
In fact, the school has omitted Ds out completely from all the things that they give public praise for (I don't need to list them, you can all name them off the top of your head).

DS is quiet, shy, slightly introverted and always works to deliver whatever the teacher asks. He doesn't excel at anything else, like sports or music or art. In other words, he is no trouble and not interesting as far as the school is concerned.

But his brain works, and he can see that other students are presented as someone to be admired.

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TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 20/07/2017 15:03

I would think it could be quite a good teaching moment about setting your own goals, not going along blindly with the prevailing values of the institution.
There are lots nice things you could do with him to celebrate. Take him out for a meal. Give him a well done card and a voucher.

BertrandRussell · 20/07/2017 15:09

Why on earth do you think this is a "comprehensive school" problem?

Traalaa · 20/07/2017 15:18

Whatever's going on at your school doesn't sound very fair, but you can't tar a whole division of schools because of it. My DS is at a comp and in top set (just!). There are a couple of kids in his class who are clearly v.v.good at maths and they're definitely given lots of extension work, including A-level questions and beyond. I know one of them's parents and they couldn't be more impressed with the teaching.

GreenTulips · 20/07/2017 15:23

DD also won an award - certificate given in maths lesson - only year 7 to achieve this against the year 8s

The PE department give out certificates cups and icecream for team players etc - yet nothing for the academics

Recent awards ceremony - only for those with 100% attendance and 0 demerits

Everyone else obviously hasn't achieved anything worth noting

I hear you - but can't be arsed to get worked up about it

Bobbybobbins · 20/07/2017 15:30

My school is a comprehensive and we give out awards for academic excellence, being a good role model, sports prowess and consistent everyday effort. Indeed, I just presented 3 of my tutor group formally with UKMC certs yesterday. This is not a comprehensive schools problem, this is a problem with your sons' school. I understand why you are annoyed about the lack of recognition but I think the lack of challenge in the maths lessons and the fact that nothing has been done to address it is a much more serious issue.

AssassinatedBeauty · 20/07/2017 16:43

Have you investigated the possibility of a scholarship to a private school and take one or both of them out of the comprehensive system?

Also, you could follow the school's formal complaints procedure about the lack of challenging work in Maths lessons.

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vrijeme · 20/07/2017 16:55

@Bobbybobbins - I'd agree. It is much more serious. However, I can guarantee that there is nothing I could say or do that would persuade this teacher to change their mind.
I spoke to him about the lack of challenge (for the umpteenth time) back in March or April. He promised to do something about it, but didn't.
As an aside, in the same conversation, i mentioned the recent UKMT merit and asked if it was not worth noting. he said it was and he'd do something.

For me, the UKMT thing is just something extremely small and extremely easy that the teacher could have done for DS. In a sea of absolutely nothing, it would have been something. But he didn't even bother to do that.

The teacher is not lazy, nor incompetent. He is a good comprehensive school teacher and runs a dept that gets results for the league tables. He can't dislike DS because DS has given him nothing to dislike. Ds is about as far from big-headed as its possible to be - if you were looking for someone who would benefit from a bit of a confidence boost then he's right there. The school has things in place - regular assemblies etc - to "celebrate" stuff, and it uses that time no matter how mundane the achievement is, even for the person involved.
The only conclusion can be that the teacher does not want to deal with the problem that DS brings to the class by being able to do the work before the module starts, or at least 5 mins in.

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BertrandRussell · 20/07/2017 16:56

The problem is that no mainstream school is set up for the real outliers. Even private schools.
If he was mine, I'd probably just say "Ok, it's a bugger. I'll see if we can find you a tutor or someone to help you outside school. In the meantime, it's only 4 lessons a week. Grin and bear it, and concentrate on getting all your other subjects as good as you possibly can"

vrijeme · 20/07/2017 17:02

@AssassinatedBeauty - the last conversation I had with the teacher was along those lines, but for sixth form. (The teacher advised that his A level course was the best place for DS1.)
Halfway through the GCSEs feels like the wrong time to be moving Ds1. Ds2 might be another story though.

Complaints procedure - I have thought about it, but would there be any point? Suppose the HT ordered the teacher to raise the maths dept's game - would he actually do it given that he's broken so many promises to me? Or would it just sour relations and give him cause to actually dislike DS, whereas right now, he finds it convenient to treat him as if he were not there?

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