# Talk

## Predicting a 5b in yr6 after achieving a 3b in yr2?

(22 Posts)
Joyn Thu 20-Oct-11 17:03:48

Hi

We had our kids parents evening this week & we were really pleased as both have settled in well to their new classes, they're happy & meeting/exceeding expectations with their progress so far. However, I asked a question & I'm a little confused by the answer.

Ds achieved 3bs in literacy, numeracy & reading at the end of last year (yr2) & as someone else had told me they base predictions for end of ks2 on ks1 results I asked the teacher what he'd be predicted in ks2. I was told the 'average' is to go up 2 full grades in ks2 so they would be looking for him to come out with 5b. But this is what had left me a bit confused. If it has taken him 2 years less than 'average' to get to a 3b, should he not continue to make faster progress than 'average,' rather than now follow the same curve but reach a higher level?

Is my understanding correct? So at age 7 he was 2 years ahead of the average, does that mean at 11 he should still be 2years/that many grades ahead, or should he not continue to be able to learn/meet targets faster? I'm just wondering what other people have found with their kids?

I've been told that it's normal for kids, for instance, in yr3 to only go up 1/3 of a grade, but I always assumed that that was because there is a lot of 'bedding down' to go from a 2b to a 2a, but if ds has already gone through this process, are they right to assume it will take a full year to go from a 3b to a 3a?

I've also been told that teachers have to make differentiated lesson plans to accommodate children who may be 2 years behind or ahead of the expected level for that age group, so I'm just wondering if that's why things work this way? And that they would be unlikely to stretch him beyond this because he'd become too much of an outlier.

Btw i hope this comes across as a genuine question, rather than a "hurrah, my son got 3b in yr2!" As he's my eldest I still don't have that much experience of the national curriculum, especially ks2 & how these things work & I genuinely just want whats best for my boy.

Iamnotminterested Thu 20-Oct-11 17:38:14

I think you are correct in thinking they are expected to make 2 full levels of progress in KS2, REGARDLESS of their KS1 score, IYKWIM! Hence a 2b at year 2 = 4b @ year 6, a 3b = 5b etc.

Don't know why though. I too wonder "how high" for want of a better phrase my DD2 could reach with literacy in year 6? She is only in year 3 now, and got a very high level in KS1. I do know the level 6 tests will be available from next year.

rabbitstew Thu 20-Oct-11 18:01:47

My understanding is that there is quite a big leap in attainment to get from a level 2 to a secure level 3 - much more than the leap from level 1 to level 2. My assumption would, therefore, be that going up a level is not exactly the same amount of progress regardless of the level, it depends on which level you are going from and to. Also, as you get higher in the levels, any areas of relative weakness are likely to get more pronounced as your weaknesses are increasingly challenged, and as such this might well pull down your overall result (ie to a certain extent you are only as good as your weakest area). Expected progress is really the least amount of progress they would hope you would make, not the most, in any event. A school that wants to be outstanding is going to be wanting to get its children to make better than expected progress if at all possible.

Joyn Thu 20-Oct-11 21:07:46

Thank you for the feedback.

Rabbit stew I had assumed the same about the 'jump' from level 2-3 compared to 1-2. Does it thus follow that the move from 3-4 is an even bigger step again?

Ismnotminterested- now sure what you meant by the level 6 tests being available next year, could you explain please?

They don't test for level 6 at the end of year 6, I was told the highest the SATS score could be was level 5. Ds's teacher wrote on her assessment that he was consistently achieving level 6 when he sat his SATS, they marked him as top level 5 though. At the end of key stage 1 he was a top level 3 and was not allowed to sit the next paper. IIRC, level 6 is secondary school level so the SATS won't measure it.

Thu 20-Oct-11 21:15:38

I am a teacher. In KS2 they should make 2 sub levels per year. Eg 3c to 3 a or 3b to 4c.

I am VERY surprised that your son was given a 3b at the end of year 2. Standard practice is to give a level 3 with no mention of the sub level. You would then be given the sub level at the end of year 3.

HTH

Feenie Thu 20-Oct-11 21:22:01

There is no requirement to qualify the level 3 at the end of Y2, but schools would most certainly do so internally and so may well share that information with parents.

2 levels progress is satisfactory progress from Y2 to Y6, so 5b should be the least your dc gets.

Progress in KS1 is more accelerated, with an 'average' child starting on 1c going to a 1a, and from a 1a to a 2b in Y2.

Feenie Thu 20-Oct-11 21:24:18

They don't test for level 6 at the end of year 6, I was told the highest the SATS score could be was level 5.

Externally marked level 6 tests are restarting this year, the first time since 2002. Teachers have always been able to teacher assess at level 6, so don't let any teacher tell you they don't 'measure' past a 5a.

Ds is 12 now though so 3 years ago this wasn't the case, Feenie. The teacher assessed him as level 6, the sats paper only went up to the top of level 5. Poor lad scored 98-100% on the papers.

ASuitableGirl Thu 20-Oct-11 21:29:53

I personally wouldn't say that a 3b at the end of year 2 was two years ahead of average. Expected level at the end of year 2 is 2b but can't remember what the actual average is (seem to remember various teachers looking into it for me once). But DS got level 3s at the end of year 2 and although he is pretty clever, he isn't exceptional at all .

I think that test for level 6 at the end of KS2 are going to be available at some point soon although I can't see why KS2 can't be more teacher assessed like KS1 or at least why the teacher assessment can't be used more. Is it used at all or is it just based on the test results?

Feenie Thu 20-Oct-11 21:30:19

I'm glad they teacher assessed him at level 6 then!

Feenie Thu 20-Oct-11 21:33:04

It is, Asuitablegirl - average attainment at year 4 is a 3b, taking a midpoint between a Y2 2b average and a Y6 4b average.

Teacher assessment has 50% weighting at Y6 (although you wouldn't know it ). I agree that in should be in line with Y2, although the writing assessment will be, for the first time this year.

ASuitableGirl Thu 20-Oct-11 21:38:01

Thank you Feenie - I am glad to hear that teacher assessment does have a higher weighting than I had thought

I think that as DS is in a pretty high achieving school that his level at the end of year 2 doesn't feel like it is that much above average whereas overall I suppose it is I also don't know what sub level his level 3s were at - so they may have all been 3cs of course.

Feenie Thu 20-Oct-11 21:48:51

That's true, lots of level 3s in a high achieving school.

I think the jump from L1-2 is massive, as the child has to move from simple 'counting' to understanding place value. We find that children who find maths challenging find this a very difficult concept to grasp securely and therefore take a long time to jump from 1a to 2c/b.

Joyn Thu 20-Oct-11 23:39:45

Thanks, for all the interesting posts. I think basically what everyone is saying is, I should take his predicted grade as a guide to the minimum (baring some sort of upset,) he should get.

Hope you don't think I'm being dumb, but I have no idea how ks2 SATS work so can anyone tell me how these are different from ks1 SATS? Is the final grade in yr 6 based solely on the exams or a combination of teacher assessment across the year & the exams? All I really know is, up until yr6 it's based on teacher observation.

Also, does anyone know whether it's considered a bigger jump going from a 3-4 than a 1-2 or 2-3? Does anyone have details of the website you can find the tick list of things they are looking for at each level? My kids have them stuck in the front of their school books, (which i briefly saw at parents evening,) but I've never seen them, (in that format at least,) on the Internet.

ibizagirl Fri 21-Oct-11 07:27:16

Dd is very able and on g and t and gained level 3a in year 2, 4a in year 3 and level 5a in years 4, 5 and 6. I was told she was getting 99% but was not allowed to do a higher paper than level 5 as it had been abolished because children could not achieve that level! Headmaster spoke to local education authority about it and was told thad dd had to remain at that level as it was a very high level as some don't even achieve a level 4 on leaving year 6. Head not very impressed as he likes pushing children who are bright. Dd now 12 and on level 7a or 8c. The levels early on do give a good indication i think of how your child would do later. I used to be a parent helper and used to know what grades certain children were on and they pretty much went the same way each year. Good luck everyone with your children.

Sat 22-Oct-11 13:57:43

ds2 is very able at maths - he was level 4 at the end of ks1, however he was level 5 at the end of y4 and getting 100% in practice SATS for the whole of y5 and y6 - he was only assessed as level 5 at the end of y6 - he's now been given a target of 7a for the end of y7 (is currently getting 6a/7c)

According to his results he made very little progress between ks1 and ks2, but has suddenly made enormous progress after being in secondary for 6 weeks ...

ime the levels they're getting are not necessarily telling the whole picture

Feenie Sat 22-Oct-11 14:34:56

Did you ask why they hadn't teacher assessed him as level 6 in Y6, basildon? They clearly should have!

Sat 22-Oct-11 16:18:03

I did and was told they couldn't go higher than L5...

Poor child was so bored last year ....

Feenie Sat 22-Oct-11 16:35:09

That's disgraceful.

All children should be allowed to progress - there is no ceiling at primary school.

ibizagirl Mon 24-Oct-11 08:34:26