DS 9 years FAINTED and had CONVULSION TODAY. please help!!!

[KangaMummy]

DS is 9 years old

We got a phone call this afternoon to say that he had FAINTED in the classroom

As he fell he hit his mouth

On the floor he had a CONVULSION.

He has had a headache for last 2 days.

Took him to A & E the nurse noted that his PULSE was LOW at 54/56

BP was 100/60 {I THINK} but they said was normal

Tested his blood sugar and that was normal

I do not know anything about EPILEPSY does anyone PLEASE?

Does anyone know what else it could be please?

Has anyone have this happen to their DS/DD?

TIA

[jampot]

This happened to my friend's little boy. He apparently fainted in class and on his way down hit his head on the mobile storage unit and ended up in hospital on the day of his party Nothing was ever followed up by either the school and I believe he's been fine since.

Also a friend of mine ended up having a fit a couple of years ago in Woollies in Cheltenham. According to her dd she kept turning round and round and then then fell to the floor and convulsed. She doesn't remember any of it. And no further instances.

I think Lou is epileptic - she should be able to advise properly on this.

I hope little Kanga is feeling better soon.

Is he allergic to anything?

[lou33]

not to my children, but i had a fit on saturday. Can I help? I've been epileptic since a child.

[KangaMummy]

thanks jampot

no he isn't allergic to anything as far as I know

he had some lunch today, he has school lunches.

[Jimjams]

Kanga- remember anyone at all can have one seizure- it's only epilepsy if they reoccur. If he has had a headache for 2 days maybe he has a virus. Did the hopsital give you any further indication of their thoughts on the seizure or whether it was a one off etc?

[jampot]

a young girl at school (yr1) was on the way back from abroad on an aeroplane a few years ago and her mum gave her some peanuts (which she had had before) all of a sudden M started swelling and couldn't breathe and now she has a severe peanut allergy. Apparently can come on quite quickly usually after a trigger - just wondered really although I know nothing about medicine

[KangaMummy]

LOU does it sound like epilepsy to you?

The SHO said it took a couple of hours to come out of a fit

I do not trust SHOs but that is a whole other story,

he said "I will go and check with the pead Dr" before we left

My mum has just said something about a "petit miel" does it sound like that to you?

Am going to take him to GP tomorrow

[KangaMummy]

what is the difference between a seizure and a convulsion?

[popsycal]

frpm what i understand petit mal is more of an 'absense' than a fit itself....


hope you are both ok
hugs

[mrsforgetful]

You are not having a good time...Leigh had a series of fits between the age of 18mths and 2yrs old...and it was decided not Epilepsy-but all they could come up with was that he may have been going througha mental growth spurt- and being too much too fast his brain 'short cicuited'....well that is my interpretation....and now he's 8 and likely Aspergers...i can't help but think that as autism is a neuralogical disorder that these fits were signs of that.

However...as i said on the other thread the diagnosis may be different...but maybe there is alot of similarities-i'm not saying he's got or will get AS!!!

When leigh had these 'fits' like your description he simply dropped to the floor and laid motionless- grey faced-absolutely freaked me out each time- and eyes open but not focussed.

then after about 2 mins he'd 'come out of it' and be quiet for around an hour.

In reception/yr1 he was often sent home with a 'bumped head' note...and when quizzed about accident often said that he had been running/on climbing frame and had just fallen off or ran headfirst into someone...so i do think looking back that i have to be aware and actively look for signs...as 'IF' it is as the specialist said 'brain overload' then it could be that it will occur again.

I obsessed for years about his head size and a permanent lump on his forehead -not too visable unless you know what to look for- but this bump was caused by him rolling off a bed at 6 months old onto a concreate floor (in italy) ...and since then i have worried that this fall caused the fits.

So....the GP is a good idea...and keep a close eye on him for 36hrs (concusion etc)

BIG hugs to you both!!

[lou33]

I couldn't tell you if it was epilepsy or not, the doc would have to determine that, but it is only diagnosed as that if your ds has more than one fit/seizure/convulsion, whatever you prefer to call it. There are various different types of epilepsy which produce different types of seizure. The type of seizure your son had sounds very similar to the ones I had as a child, BUT that does not mean he will go on to develop epilepsy.

You do feel pretty tired and drowsy after having a seizure, takes a few hours to feel on form again, usually, so that is what I imagine the sho menat by taking a couple of hours to come out of a fit. This is called the post dictal phase. Certainly the fit itself shouldn't last more than about 5 mins.

Your mother is probably referring to petit mal epilepsy, which was the old term for the more minor seizures. Petit mal and grand mal. They have been replaced by more specific terminology now, such as absence seizures, partial complex seizures, tonin clonic seizures, etc.

The fits which would come under petit mal, as you and your mum know it, tend to affect only part of the brain, so you can have just an absence, appearing to lose track of yourself, or be daydreaming for a minute or two, or just stare into space,other seizures may cause you to do repetitive stuff, such as lip smacking, blinking.

The major tonic clonic seizures are what most people would automatically think of when asked to visualise someone having a fit, falling to ground, going rigid then having muscular contractions, which jerk the body. These tend to affect the whole brain , which is why you get such a dramatic end result.

Sometimes seizures which affect only part of the brain can suddenly take over the whole brain and cause a major tonic clonic fit as well.

Did your son have any unusual feelings or senations before he fainted? HAd he been unwell, eating properly, overtired? These can all be factors.

I would get him along to the gp and ask to eb referred to have an eeg. Having said that, it will not give you conclusive proof of epilepsy or not, but just gives a recording of the brain waves as they put your ds through various tests. If anything irregular comes up they will be able to check it out further for you. Try not to worry. One fit does not automatically mean epilepsy, and even if it is, life is perfectly liveable with it, even if it takes a while to adjust.

hth

[KangaMummy]

thanks so much for all your help.

We will ask for a eeg to be done at least it can be done as a baseline test if ever another one needs in the future.

DS had had a headache since sunday night {which he doesn't usually get} I put it down to being tired, he had a normal breakfast and some lunch.

The fainting/fit happened about 2pm or just after.

He doesn't remember much about beforehand he just said it all went Black.

The teacher asked him who he was and where was he and he didn't know and then she asked him a bit later and he didn't remember her asking him the first time.

It happened in the classroom and all the children were taken outside into the hall.

They were frightened as he was bleeding from his lip too.

What happened exactly when you were a child LOU if you don't mind telling me?

[KangaMummy]

Mrs forgetful what are the symtoms exactly for AS?

I am so grateful to mumnetters for all their help and support. Thank you

I said to DH as we left A & E that I was going to ask Mumsnet when we got home.

Lou The dr didn't really know but he said that if he had another one then to bring him straight back.

[KangaMummy]

Lou my mum used to be an infant teacher[retired] and she was just talking about children years and years ago but she is no expert.

I have no idea either whether he has time outs I don't know if I would notice would I?

He does spend alot of time in his room playing a swoosh game when he imagines there is someone there and he is playing with them he goes swoosh swoosh and jumps about. I can't really put it inoto words exactly.

[KangaMummy]

what questions would you ask the GP tomorrow?

what do you think we need to know from the teacher who saw it happen?

thank you

[KangaMummy]

I am sorry if this is a bit personal LOU and you don't have to answer but

are you allowed to drive a car?

are you allowed to work in any jobs you want to?

I knew a boy when I was a teenager who was very upset as he wanted to go into the army but wasn't allowed to and I have a feeling that he wasn't allowed to drive a car.

This was 30 years ago and so medicine will be very different now.

[lou33]

I used to faint, just roll my eyes and swoon, like a victorian lady , as well as having absences. No mad jerking about or anything like that. I have only had 3 of those as far as i can remember, dec 88, jan 98 and last saturday.

Having a convulsion is much scarier for those watching it, we are unaware of what is going on until we come round again. It's very common to have an injury or two afterwards (she says feeling her bruised head!), and biting tongues or lips is probably the most likely thing to happen.

I wouldn't be able to say if he is just playing or having a cpseizure from what you say wrt the swooshing. I guess you would have to watch him for a while and see if he just gets fed up playing it and moves onto something else, or if he suddenly snaps out of it, looking a bit nonplussed. He wouldn't have any recollection of playing it either , if it was a seizure. The best thing to do is try and record anything that you think is unusual behaviour , and take it along with you to the gp. You probably would notice if he was having an absence seizure, as he would stop what he was doing for a bit.

I would try and get as much info from the school as possible about his convulsion. What he did, how long it lasted, how he had been acting beforehand, everything helps to rule out or diagnose epilepsy. If he hadn't been feeling well for a couple of days it's v possible that it was a result of that, and he will have no more, but obviously I cannot say, as I am not a neurologist.

I would ask the gp to refer you to see a paediatric neurologist as well as for an eeg, if you are especially worried. You are right, medication has changed a lot in 30 years. Thirty years ago I was dosed up to my eyeballs with phenobarbitone, there are huge parts of my childhood I can't remember because of the drugs. Nowadays there are plenty of anti convulsants about which leave you able to notice the world going on around you , but like I said , one fit doesn't mean he will need anything.

Law dictates you have to be free from fits for a year before you can drive a car, and you have to stop driving if you have one, until you have been clear for a year again. I think this applies to fits during the day,if you only fit at night there is a diff time limit, not sure about that.

Epilepsy is not allowed to be used to prevent people getting jobs afaik, but of course you have to have some common sense about what you should or should do for a living.


Has this helped any?

[KangaMummy]

thanks so much Lou yes it has helped alot

I am not saying that I definatley think he has epilepsy but I wanted to know all the facts I could so I could understand it.

DH is going to phone the school in the morning to find out as much as he can about what happened.

we will go to the gp asap tomorrow as well and ask for the referrals you suggest.

thank you so much for all your help

mumsnet is the best

[lou33]

You are welcome kanga. Good luck at the doc

[KangaMummy]

DH spoke to DS teacher who saw what happened yesterday.

He had had a bad headache since sunday night and was very stressed about what was happening at school
here

He was very stressed standing by her desk talking about his work then he turned and his legs crumpled and he fainted, on his way down he hit his chin on the table

He was unconscious for a few seconds, was a very strange colour{which we think meant grey}

opened his eyes almost immediatley and then closed them again.

Very violent convulsions of WHOLE BODY lasting 2 seconds

when he came round he couldn't remember anything that he had done or that had happened since breakfast {this was about 2pm}

He was very confused and didn't know his name or where he was

He had extreme difficulty in being able to talk and articulating speech

So this is a rather more extreme process than we thought yesterday.

We went to GP this afternoon and he was rather shocked as I think he thought we had come about his asthma.

He checked him over heart rate back up to 72 yesterday it was 54.

eyes were ok, neck was ok,

He is refering him to pead dr at local hospital as he says it was obviously more serious than just fainting. He wasn't sure if they would do an eeg as they don't always do them on children or so he said

No neuriological pead at local hosp would have to go to GOSH. if they thought was neccessary.

[lou33]

I was just about to post asking if there was any news

From your description it does sound like he had a seizure, though why i couldn't tell you. How long was he out for altogether? Temporary memory loss and confusion is quite normal after having one, so don't worry too much. I think it's the body's way of stopping you reliving what could be a v scary incident. It's certainly frightening for those watching, but luckily for the one having a seizure, you have no idea what's going on.

I hope you get an appointment soon, and things get sorted quickly.

[KangaMummy]

I don't really know but probably not more than 10 seconds.

I hadn't thought about memory loss because of it being good thing BUT yes can see that it would be.

I think you have been great and so helpful

Have you ever heard of headache and stress coming before a seizure?

Do you think that if he has another one it will follow the same pattern?

I am not sure if he will go to school tomorrow.

I am so pleased he DIDN'T WEE OR POO is that going to mean that hopefully he won't IF it happens again?

The rest of the class who witnessed the seizure all had first aid lesson afterwards and the homework was to practice recovery position

[yurtgirl]

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[yurtgirl]

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[KangaMummy]

Thanks yurtgirl

He kept wanting to read all the messages mnetters sent him

He wanted me to print out all the messages the mumsnetters sent him about his badge and he has taken them all up to bed with him tonight

[lou33]

Seizures can be brought on by all sorts of things, tiredness, illness... so I wouldn't rule out stress as a possibility. It's also possible that hte headache could have been an aura, i.e a prewarning that a seizure was imminent. If he has a tonic clonic fit, then it is likely to follow the same pattern, tho maybe not exactly, but just because he didn't urinate or lose control of his bowels doesn't mean he won't if there is a next time. It depends how full his bladder/bowels are, because it isn't a case of consciously holding it in, because you are incapable of making that decision, it's an automatic reaction. So if he hits the deck with full bladder and bowels he will empty them.

The school sound like they dealt with the after effect on the other children very well.

How is he? Has he been back to school? If he is physically well enough I would send him asap, or else he may find it harder to show his face iyswim. Psychologically it will become harder and harder for him to front it out, the longer he stays away.