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Immunity Blood Test for Measles - NHS nurse siad they don't work???

(36 Posts)
farawaytree Thu 18-May-06 08:34:23

Anyone heard of this. I took DD for her normal boosters of Tetunus, Whooping cough etc and as I haven't had the MMR booster (we opted for singles) I said I was considering a private blood test to see what the situation was and then decide to go singles again or MMR booster.

This is when the nurse said the blood test does not work? Anyone know?

Twiglett Thu 18-May-06 08:38:00

yes I've heard that before .. will rack brains for why .. it was something to do with the test being inconclusive

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads Thu 18-May-06 08:54:15

It tells you whether or not your child is likely to have immunity at that time, but not how long it will last etc. I wouldn't say it didn't work, it will give you more info to make your decision, even if it doesn't answer every question about thier immunity for the rest of their life! If your child had immnity according to the blood test then you could always test again pre-puberty- when it is more important that they have decent immunity (you could test again then anyway).

Fauve Thu 18-May-06 09:03:56

I've been finding out about this. Vaccinations only give immunity temporarily, for a number of years, so a blood test taken a few years after the vaccination might show immunity, but another blood test taken a few years later might show none. Hence the need for repeated boosters, including those given in teenage.

Having the disease itself gives immunity for life - that's why rubella tests given pre-conception in the old days were reliable. In other words, if you've had the disease, blood tests will show you to be immune throughout your life.

alexsmum Thu 18-May-06 09:06:39

my ds1 had the seperate m,m,and r.he was then given a blood test to see if he needed the pre-school booster.(he didn't) but we were told he has to have another blood test at 9/10y/o to see if if he needs a booster then.sounds like the nurse just wants you to have the booster.

bluejelly Thu 18-May-06 09:10:22

You might as well have the mmr. It's safe

farawaytree Thu 18-May-06 09:17:32

Thanks everyone, if that is the case regarding immunity for MMR not lasting - do they give another MMR to teenagers then?

Fauve Thu 18-May-06 09:47:24

They seem to be encouraging colleges to give them to students. I don't know if people should then have another booster after another few years?

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads Thu 18-May-06 09:54:35

Have to be careful giving the MMR to young adults Fauve because you shouldn't get pregnant around the time of having the booster. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, just that girls/young women need to be made aware of the possible problems.

chapsmum Thu 18-May-06 09:58:19

jimjams, sorry this is in the wrong place.
thanks for the info on the other thread,
have yo any idea what the statistics are of non immunised children develop autism regardless?
Genuine question I have no idea.
not looking fo a debate either just curious...?

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads Thu 18-May-06 10:24:43

erm no- hard to get any meaningful data because the no of autistic children is small, and the number of completely non-immunised children is absolutely tiny. From a completely non-scientific "survey". I know quite a few families with more than one autistic child. I don't know any familiy with more that one autistic child where the family didn't immunise siblings. I know of onhe faily with 3 children, the 2 immunised are both autistic (and the paed in care of the eldest one thinks MMR triggered his autism), the 3rd child is not immunised and is not autistic.

There was someone in the States who wanted to look at this, but couldn't get larghe enough numbers of non-immunised siblings (especially hard in the States because of the law there).

HOwever that is a vast oversimplification. If you take my ds3 for example. His urine test results are exactly the same as ds1's. This means is is very at risk of an ASD. It may mean that damage from heavey metals has already been done. However he has had a massively lower exposure to heavy metals than ds1. He has had limited fish consumption (as did I during pregnany), and no injected mercury (from vaccinations) and no aluminium or whatever else thay put in jabs. I had a filling repair (supposedly safe but the dentist was a cowboy) during pregnancy with ds1. Not with ds3. So he hasn't just had lower heavy metal exposure from jabs. He has also had very limited gluten exposure, and no antibiotics. Our approach with him (and ds2) was to not say an abolute no to anything, buit to only give potential triggers if they were absolutely necessary.

Erm back to MMR lthis is a quote from a recent book by richard late. He developed a rabies vaccine (I think)) so is hardly anti jab. "It is also important to recognise that measures of ASD rates in immunized versus un-immunized populations fall short of testingh the contention that a sub proportion of ASD cases mnight be associated with vaccine administration. Specifically only 4-20%of families have countenanced a possible link between MMR and development of ASD....A resonable hypothesis is that around 5% may be due to MMR vaccination, with impaired immunity as a contributing factor." It's very difficult to get sufficient sample sizes to test this though.

Heavy metals may play a role in disrupting immunity first of all, or weird gut bacteria and/or gut inflammation.

chapsmum Thu 18-May-06 10:35:05

that is really interesting jimjams, thanks for that.
sorry, have another qustion... are the singles any less likely to act as triggers.
I know this will probably just be asumption as there has been less research on that than the mmr, but honstely, what do you think?

farawaytree Thu 18-May-06 10:38:14

Sorry Jimjams to fire questions at you, but I would value your opinion. Can I correctly assume it is not necessary to give my twins a second dose of Measles and Mumps (they never got rubella as there were no singles available) as it is likely their immunity will be 95% and all the booster will do is increase it by 5%. But to review it later on?

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads Thu 18-May-06 10:40:10

anecdotally less likely. There are theoretical reasons as to why that might be. Untested obviously. My aunt cares for a (now) adult who was left severely brain damaged following measles vaccination as a baby though so they're not whiter than white obviously. Did find some peer reviewed papers (from a long time ago) saying that they had slightly higher efficacies as well. Efficacies? is that a word???

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads Thu 18-May-06 10:41:56

nope faraway tree. The "booster" is not a booster it is to catch those whose vaccination did not work the first time round. If they're immune then they don't need another jab (until they are no longer immune whenever that may be- immunity can decrease), and if they're not immune they do need the jab.

ruty Thu 18-May-06 10:46:07

My ds had severe gut inflammation from three months old, despite being solely breastfed. We went to see a specialist in gut inflammation/autism [works in the NHS] thanks to Jimjams, and he was emphatic we must keep ds off dairy and gluten for at least first two years to avoid autism, contrary to our local gastro paed's advice, who completely poo pooed the idea [and knows nothing about development disorders.] Ds is 20 months and fine and flourishing - i really don't know what might have happened if we had not gone this route. So if dairy and gluten fragments can cause autism in susceptible children i am pretty convinced there are other triggers too - and the measles jab may be one. Again, this is probably only a factor for a very small percentage of the population but it needs more research. I think single vaccine is safer but i think jimjams can probably explain it better than me.

chapsmum Thu 18-May-06 10:48:28

really appreciate the info.
I have to say here that when I first came to mumnet I was very pro vaccine.
I suppose I still am but I have found the information you have provided absolutely invaluable (Ihope that means the same as really valuable)
Ithink what I have changed my opinion about is the presentation of information to mothers who are confused/worried about vaccination
I think the info you give is balanced and you manage to stay unbias but factual. I really appreciate what you have said. And I only wish health professionals could be honest rather than than bias. I dont think it pays well for them to be dismissive to fears rather than educatory (is that a word? )IYSWIM?
I have taken the info you have given me and it has helped me to make a dicision I am comfotable with.
Thanks for answering jimjams

sandyballs Thu 18-May-06 10:48:52

Farawaytree - we also had singles for our DDs and I have recently been looking into having the single boosters. However, I have found out that the first round of single injections gives them 97% protection from these diseases for life and I have decided it's not worth going through the second round of boosters for an extra 3%.

farawaytree Thu 18-May-06 10:50:04

Ok so I might as well go down my previous route of getting the blood tests done privately (and ignore the 'don't work bit' from the nurse - can't help thinking it was a bit of a set speech ..when she said the NHS don't bother any more with blood tests, I cant help thinking, convenintly closing another choice loophole) We can then decide to single them again.. thanks jimjams

chapsmum Thu 18-May-06 10:52:34

farway tree that is the attitue I am talking about. I am a nurse and I know fine well what the immunity test show, and when you wou want to repeat to be sure of immunity.
Why can they not just tell you what would be reccommended to do rather than being so dismissive????
makes me

chapsmum Thu 18-May-06 10:52:45


Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads Thu 18-May-06 10:52:55

another quote from the book mentioned below:

"INfection with viruses is certainly not excluded, but the evidence for the involvement of vaccinal viruses (as in the live MMR vaccine) is contradictory. Although ASD children do appear to have an immune impairment- 5 of 13 autistic children had no discernible anti-rubella immunity despite vaccination- Singh and Jensen reported that measles antibody levles (but not mumps or rubella) were higher in autistic children than controls. It is possible that reduced immunity, especially in the GI tract, might allow vaccine viruses to persist, just as with Clostridia and yeasts and these could further contribute to local inflammation..."

Elsewhere he says about the original Wakefield paper "Some aspects of this paper have been challenged, but not the presence or ansence of gut abnormalities".

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads Thu 18-May-06 10:56:11

Thanks chapsmum- although I often end up embroiled in arguments on here about vaccination, I'm not anti vaccination really. I think the way the programme is run here is barking and makes no sense, and it terrifies me that vaccinations are believed to be so above suspicion. If the debate was more honest it would be easier (and if they would provide a bloody single tetanus jab I'd give ds2 tetanus protection right now).

farawaytree Thu 18-May-06 10:57:26

Chapsmum - sorry to make you angry but I am in fact pleased you are a nurse, as hopefully you can explain to me why the blood test for immunity against measles has been withdrawn by the NHS as 'it does not work and cannot tell you if an individual has any immunity'. From my research on the internet it seems to be used in the US and obviously the private sector are still making their deductions from it.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads Thu 18-May-06 10:57:34

ruty - take a look at my down/angry thread on SN at the last post about ds3 and goats mik!!!!!

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