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Don't care about trans debate

(18 Posts)
powershowerforanhour Fri 28-Oct-16 00:11:28

Do I have to have a view? Reading feminist stuff over the past year I feel like the new leader of the Alliance party in Northern Ireland when one of the first things they asked her on the radio this morning was whether she personally is unionist or nationalist.
She politely deflected the question with a more polished version of "who cares? I'm sick of single issue politics".
I don't like it when derailers squeal "but women in other countries get stoned to death so anything you want to discuss is trivial" and don't want to be hypocritical so I suppose I should study carefully and organise my thoughts on it. Particularly since it might be important and I don't think penises should be in womens' refuges or hurling insults at lesbians on university campuses.
My own personal experience of MTF people* (*insert term of choice, I don't care) is exactly one that I worked with years ago. Looked like a man in a dress, we referred to her as she and used her preferred female name, nobody ever talked about the trans thing, we were all good at our jobs. The end.
Is it OK if I'm a TA fem? (Trans-Apathetic feminist. Taf, for short).

vesuvia Fri 28-Oct-16 17:51:41

powershowerforanhour wrote - "I'm sick of single issue politics".

I think the so-called "trans debate" is only single issue politics in the sense it may appear, at first glance, to be a only a niche issue about trying to help a few people feel happier about themselves, but it actually has very big implications in many areas of life because the "winner" of the debate will define what a woman is and what rights a woman will have.

IrenetheQuaint Sat 29-Oct-16 13:30:06

Everyone's feminism is different and you are perfectly entitled to decide your own feminist priorities.

I think trans issues are significant because of the wider implications, but I get frustrated sometimes that they generate quite so much heat amongst feminists when, for the vast majority of women, male violence, male privilege and ludicrous gender stereotyping have much more of a negative impact day to day.

Also, some feminists object to the whole idea of 'being trans' on theoretical grounds, whereas others don't (though they may still have concerns about particular aspects of modern trans ideology). You can still be a feminist while falling into category 2.

HermioneWeasley Fri 16-Dec-16 15:37:04

You are entitled to your opinion

I am of the view that the erasure of the word "woman" and therefore there being no sex segregated space and potentially no sex based protections, is probably the biggest threat to women's rights in the U.K.

Autumnsweater Fri 16-Dec-16 15:39:30

I feel like this power!

LeadPipe Fri 16-Dec-16 15:40:19

I echo vesuvia I care because I don't want the definition of a woman to be determined /defined by men nor do I want men to determine what rights women will have.

LeadPipe Fri 16-Dec-16 15:41:38

Hermione you are right. I can't not care if I care about women's rights.

Kidnapped Fri 16-Dec-16 15:57:22

"For the vast majority of women, male violence, male privilege and ludicrous gender stereotyping have much more of a negative impact day to day".

That is exactly what the trans issue is, though. All of that wrapped up neatly into one single issue.

The trans issue is all about men who claim they are women being able to bring their violence, male privilege and ludicrous gender stereotyping into women's spaces. And taking over women's experiences and achievements.

0phelia Fri 16-Dec-16 16:19:56

I care more about other issues, such as how females plan to protect themselves from male sexual violence, issues surrounding pregnancy and choice, sex work which harms women but benefits men (but which is undeniably a symptom of male supremacy)

As a consequence of my interest in feminism, issues of rigid gender stereotyping that push women to the bottom of the heirarchy, has left me with a great deal of concern wrt the trans debate.
(Pink = females are the caregivers and listeners or Blue = males are the serious doers and speakers)

Don't get me wrong I have sat next to a man in stilettos and stockings, waiting for a punter and wish him well... BUT
I have been forced into caring about the bigger picture for women (and men) as part of my life experiences.

Essentially I disagree with you powershower

0phelia Fri 16-Dec-16 16:20:45

kidnapped Brilliant post!

DamnCommandments Fri 16-Dec-16 16:34:33

Oh thank fuck OP. Yes. I believe that beyond a certain base level of (probably) hormonal fucked-up-ness, the rise and rise of trans is about gender stereotyping, but I'd rather concentrate on the gender stereotyping than on one of its fucked up effects tvm. I feel like it's all one huge fucking philosophical derail all by itself. I know that's the wrong thing to think, but I just can't care about everything.

Take the developing world. I know that people live in grinding poverty and I feel terrible about it - but I am not moved to the extent that I feel inclined to think any further than bunging money to Oxfam. I know that makes me a bad person, but it's the person I am.

Feels good to get that off my chest.

PiaRuth76 Fri 13-Oct-17 15:09:37


DJLippy Tue 20-Mar-18 18:35:40

I just peaked by trans debate and my anger stems from the way this debate has been mis-charecterised and the terf slurs - I've been manipulated and that's made me angry. I spent so long jumping through hoops to accommodate people and their fucking pronouns before realising - they actually hate you - why give respect when you don't get any back? Then when I thought about it on a philosophical level I thought - you really can't become a man or a woman if you weren't born that way. It shoudn't be a crime to say that. Even if it wasn't scientifically true (which it is) why can't I say it, who does it hurt? Trans folk are real but to state science shouldn't be illegal, I would respect someone face-to=face.

In a good sense it has really opened my eyes and changed the way I think about feminism - made me think and do some research and learn a bit more which is never bad. This debate is becoming toxic and many non-feminists getting 'woke' by it.

Feminism not my main priority because men are also oppressed. Does a tramp have priveledge over a rich lawyer? What about those in the third world? The condition of working class people in this country? Basically, what I'm saying is I WANT TO SMASH IT ALL UP! BURN THE NWO!

LaSqrrl Sat 21-Apr-18 23:37:32

vesuvia and Kidnapped nailed it.

The 'trans issue' is not 'single issue' at all, but will affect pretty much all facets of life for the female born, maybe not all at once, but it is happening bit by bit. And the technique is 'thin edge of the wedge'.

Even just a few years ago, TIMs (unless they 'passed' really well, most don't) needed to have their Gender Recognition Certificate in order to enter female-only spaces like toilets (but more importantly, changing rooms). Now what is on the table is 'self identification' to enter those spaces, unchallenged (because if you do challenge them, you can be charged with a hate crime, and be labelled a 'transphobic bigot'). And that is why various groups of feminists are meeting to discuss the implications of the changes to the GRA, specifically 'self identification', because it opens up a range of issues for women and girls.

Women's refuges - will be forced to take in (and house with women) anyone who 'identifies' as a woman in the refuges. Of course, this can have life threatening issues for DV victims (and staff) if the abuser of a woman finds out what refuge she is in.

Women's prisons - most women in prison are in there for minor and non-violent crime (the majority with sentences of less than six months). Many TIMs (specifically the ones convicted as males) who later decide they are 'really women inside' have sexual or murder offences against women and girls. Ian Huntley.

Women's health - some quite delusional TIMs are lining up for 'pap smears', even though they have no cervix, taking resources away from women's health. Also, women who have a preference for female medical staff (esp for gynae matters) will not be able to refuse treatment from a TIM, because the female patient will then be deemed a 'transphobic bigot' for her preference. Actually, for Muslim women, this is not even a 'preference', they need to be able to see actual female medical staff (as well as, they would not be able to access women's refuges either, if unrelated males were housed there).

Women's changing rooms - a couple of cases in the US in the last few years illustrate this. One was a high school girls' swim team, whereby the girls & parents objected to the TW in the female changing room. The 'solution' was that the swim team were relocated to use a small utility room to change, and the TW continued to use the female changing room. In the other case, a woman at a fitness centre objected to a male (TW) being in the female changing room. She was advised that "she" (the TW) was allowed to be there because "she" 'identified as a woman'. The gym cancelled the woman's membership. She is currently suing them.

Sex equality in the workplace - places (like Labour's all-women short lists) are being taken by TIMs. The women who object to this, get booted out of the party. Equality monitoring in workplaces can now show a sudden increase in the number of women holding senior positions or equal pay status, even though many of these 'women' built their careers as men.

Crime statistics - Once upon a time, female sex offenders were less than 1-2% of all sex offenders (and many of those were accomplices). Now we have a sudden influx of 'female sex offenders'. Again, if Huntley gets his way, his crimes will in the future be counted as a 'female sex offender'.

Women's political/feminist organising - this has been under attack for many years now, half a decade already. Women are being hounded for even discussing changes to the GRA. How dare women have an opinion on something that might affect them!

This is not even necessarily a full list of implications, but the above is a wide sample of the areas that are impacted for women and girls. I have not even covered GNC (gender non conforming) children, and the future lesbian and gay kids who will be fast-tracked as 'trans', sterilised, and tied to the medical profession for the rest of their lives. Or 'the cotton ceiling', which insists that lesbians have sex with people with penises if they call themselves lesbians.

Transgenderism is far more than a single issue.

thebewilderness Mon 30-Apr-18 04:33:29

Transgender advocates have declared women's rights to be anti trans. Just like in our grandmothers day when men declared women's rights anti man.
They are writing amendments to law that will deeply harm the ability of women and girls to participate in the public sphere.
What we are concerned about is not "the trans issue" but rather the continued roll back of women's rights.

Brassidium Mon 30-Apr-18 13:59:47

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MadBadDaddy Sun 13-May-18 03:13:50

"Transgender advocates have declared women's rights to be anti trans.
They are writing amendments to law...
What we are concerned about is not "the trans issue" but rather the continued roll back of women's rights."

Is this really every Transgender person's problem to solve? Trans people cannot push back against this, even united (hah! Transpeople herd like cats!) we are outnumbered by about 60,000 to 1.

The fecking 'transgender advocates' do what they like. They are, however, the only ones not telling Transgender people to piss off to the other side. What do you seriously expect a few thousand quirky individuals to achieve unaided and unexploited?

SomeonesMummy Sat 09-Jun-18 15:03:59

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