A theory thread, for wankers(200 Posts)
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
<sits at the back and listens>
I think I'm a practical feminist and I have no clue about theoretical basics. I don't give a stuff about a party line, I'll say what I think
and probably overshare and I like to read the academical stuff.
I've always identified as a feminist. I'm only too aware that I only have a very rudimentary grasp of the theoretical aspects of feminism. FWR is somewhere I can learn about this, and have my existing concepts of feminism reaffirmed or challenged.
if there is a party line, then I'm unaware of it
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
There's something I want to say about this "why people (women?) don't post on FWR" question that I don't dare to say ... << keeps quiet on this front >>
What role does FWR have in helping women? Speaking personally: it gives names to feelings, and it makes you question your assumptions. Is that not good enough? Or is that intellectually masturbation too?
Consciousness raising? Chat? How could it be anything else?
there's also the thing about "once you have seen you cannot unsee" and sometimes you need a bit of a debrief
I think having a few 'practical feminists' around who don't understand the basics of feminism demonstrates that actually, we have made some ground. Just KNOWING they're out there, means that actually, those who have fought for rights have succeeded, to an extent.
Its kinda nice to know that there are women who don't feel that they've hit the gender wall in their lives, or who have breezed through it so easily that they haven't even noticed it or can fight it easily. I wish that were me. I so wish that for the next generation of women. To just BE and not have to be aware of the theory would be simply amazing.
But there's not ENOUGH women who can just be practical feminists, because they come face to face with discrimination that hinders, blocks and/or hurts them. For some its occasional, for others its frequent, for others it a life long, sole destroying occurrence.
Theoretical feminism is needed, to fight against this. It is used to PROVE that there is still discrimination and that we aren't imagining it. It can be used to agitate for programs to eradicated it, to mitigate against it, to teach to eliminate it. It is needed to give hope, to those who are struggling.
Why should FWR be for anything? Apart from discussion, consciousness raining and fellow feeling?
I'll have to be the fik one at the back making rude noises and throwing paper about. What I know about feminist theory I've learned from the generous women here or been signposted to by them.
Just wafting in to mark my place, back later
From what I have witnessed on the boards recently, erm....feminism is not to be actually discussed because we do it wrong?
Why can't it just be for what it's named for - feminism and women's rights? Or am I missing something? And if it has to be "for" something - who gets to decide what the "for" is? And is the "for" fixed and immutable or fluid? And if it's fluid, then who gets to decide on the fluidity?
hanks Buffy I mooted the ides of another thread at the pub but hadn't felt okay about doing it, specially in the context that it was I who brought the whole place into disrepute by doing what I thought was legitimate feminist analysis. My overall sense about that is that you're allowed to do feminist analysis of your own situation, and of people off board like media figures, but people really can't get along with the idea of analysing other posters' situatuons , except in the case you are going to support their own view of that situation.
WRT your question Buffy, I was just you know, chatting about feminism and feeling like my consciousness was being raised before those threads. I hadn't thought of that as having a purpose or even that I might be responsible for how feminism was perceived by others. It's interesting to think that posters who were incensed by my infamous statement were simultaneously insisting that I could not speak for feminism but at the same time saying that I absolutely did represent feminism to them and felt disbarred from feminism because of me.
I was not all that pleased by the discussions which talked about a 'target audience'. I felt like I was talking to people who I liked about stuff I was interested in until I discovered I was a pontificating bastard that was deliberately excluding people.
I am feeling a bit exhausted by it all
are we supposed to be evangelising? or rather, are we supposed to be evangelising?
Oh come on LordCopper. that's not fair. Say the thing that dare not speak its name! Or PM me.
I am a bit wary of the thing that Jeanne said on the pub thread that the language of argument and discussion learned in schools tends to be aggressive, or me=right, you=wrong (of course she said something much more articulate and sensible than that).
I hate the faux-objective, confrontational language of prideful debate as much as the next person who is being bludgeoned by a jumped up twat from a debating society. But actually I wasn't taught to argue at school. I went to a naice girls' school where we were taught to agree; where we were taught to write gentle essays which contained a consscientious, thorough survey of accurate facts, in neat handwriting, and a moderate conclusion that pretty much covered all the bases.
I went to a men's college (notionally mixed, when I got there, but we knew we were a vulnerable tokenistic minority) where this approach didn't wash and I felt a sickening drunken vertigo at being forced to write critical essays with a point of view. It became exhilarating.
It is in this environment, of course, that these young arrogant devils-advocate arseholes are spawned. I don't want to be one of those. But I felt I deserved their swashbuckling lethal weapons because I needed them to defend my very self against those sniggering, pawing boys.
And now - how could I ever be so callow, so confident, now? I am 43, I have battle scars and wisdom enough to know where I am lacking; and have learnt more about love and courage and pure damaged grit and I feel like I have earned some swagger. I don't really want to spend my waning, middle years with a gentle smile and a head tilt and cleverly synthesising the points of view of people who have no respect for mine. I will not go gently into that good night - not now anyway. No doubt I will return again eventually (I oscillate) between a sort of gentle open holistic marvelling at all the wondrous variety of people and their thoughts; right now I am in the opposite mood which is anger, and an incisive sense that I have earned the right to say what I mean.
there are different ways of sharing thoughts and points of view and there is no need to win. But there is absolutely no need to turn yourself into a sort of welcome mat rather than admit you disagree
OK I will say it.
There are people who say FWR is aggressive so they don't post. That makes me laugh. It's typical (and there are studies published in learned journals) that when women are not behaving like doormats they are being aggressive. There are plenty of boards that are plenty more aggressive but it doesn't stop people posting. So this is not the reason why people don't post on FWR.
There are people who say you get hounded out of FWR if you are doing it "wrong". Now, about being "wrong" - surely not everything is right? Eg the thing about choice that Buffy posted earlier. So if someone is wrong - and there are things that are just wrong, eg rape myths - what do I do? Be nice? If someone comes here and tries to get affirmation of some unfeminist choices what do I do? Be nice?
Sure there are posters who are less concerned about making people feel comfortable. So what? We are grown-ups - you go away and think whether you have been wrong and either come back to argue another day or change your ways.
Then there are things that are neither right nor wrong and depends on your experience and your priorities. Surely we can agree to disagree? Or do we all have to be the same?
Clearly in an ideal world we would all have infinite patience and infinite wisdom. We don't. Why should FWR be held to impossible standards?
<< Joins puffin at the back and makes rude noises >>
I get annoyed by the suggestion that we're supposed to acknowledge the validity of other viewpoints. This only applies to feminist discussions. You wouldn't expect a Tory to acknowledge the validity of socialism when they are discussing politics. I think it stems from the sort of socialisation ros describes where girls are taught not to express strong opinions. Fuck that.
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