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DP thinks that women shouldn't be more afraid of men than men should be because more men are murdered than women.

(56 Posts)
Fantastictwistsand Mon 31-Jul-17 19:57:23

Is he right? Statistically it seems he is.

It started off as an argument about women's only short lists and then came on to this. I've argued that women have much less of a chance against a man and he says I've turned it into an emotive argument now. I'm really frustrated but he might actually be right.

honeysucklejasmine Mon 31-Jul-17 19:59:42

So, we can assume he means that women are sexually assaulted and murdered, but that the sum total of those offences is lower than man on man murder?

Because he must acknowledge that women are not only scared of bring murdered, but also of being sexually (or otherwise) assaulted.

honeysucklejasmine Mon 31-Jul-17 20:00:47

As it happens, the fact that men are also victims of male violence does not make me any less fearful of it.

user1497480444 Mon 31-Jul-17 20:03:33

It is true though, statistically young men are by FAR the most likely group to be the victim of violence.

Which is why I never allow a man to "walk me home"

RaininSummer Mon 31-Jul-17 20:08:36

Just because more young men get attacked than young women didn't make less worried or protective of my daughters when growing up.

Snap8TheCat Mon 31-Jul-17 20:11:57

No but I guess we should be equally protective of our sons, which generally society isn't.

PaintingByNumbers Mon 31-Jul-17 20:14:34

Are women afraid of being murdered by men? Or are they afraid of being raped by men? I've never especially been frightened of being murdered, is that just me?

Gingernaut Mon 31-Jul-17 20:20:00

Most males who are murdered are killed by friends/business associates/fellow criminals.

The vast majority of murdered women are killed by family, lovers and former lovers.

The rare stranger murders are horrific and are salaciously pored over in the press.

Men need to stop getting so drunk and be careful oof who the associate with, most women need to live like hermits and avoid fathers, brothers, boyfriends, husbands and sons.

Gingernaut Mon 31-Jul-17 20:22:42

scaryclown Mon 31-Jul-17 20:30:22

Most of the mistaken impression that women are attacked more than men comes from the feminist conversation I'm afraid. Men are far more vulnerable to assault, maiming, death and life changing injury than women, yet the most quoted narrative is of male safety and women being unsafe everywhere they go. Rather sadly, making women feel overly vulnerable is necessary to being subsequently horrified that women feel unsafe.
It's one of my biggest problems with the current feminist narrative.

LastGirlOnTheLeft Mon 31-Jul-17 20:32:26

Men have a fighting chance. Women don't.

SciFiFan2015 Mon 31-Jul-17 20:35:06

As a feminist I'd focus on the problem. Male violence.
If we can fix that then...

TheFaerieQueene Mon 31-Jul-17 20:38:24

It isn't a bloody competition who should be more afraid. Male violence is the problem.

Gingernaut Mon 31-Jul-17 20:55:58

Men are more likely to be the perpetrators.

As I said, to avoid attack and murder, all the vast majority of men have to do is a avoid drink, be careful of the company they keep and watch their own tempers.

A lot of murdered men were caught up in fights which didn"t go their way.

They are more likely to have physically risky jobs (police, soldiers fire fighters, prison officers), are more likely to engage in risky behaviours (crime, drink, drugs) and are more likely to gather together in crowds where such people are more likely to be (football hooligans).

If they sobered up, stopped mixing with the wrong crowd and kept a weather eye on potential flashpoints, the male murder rate could be more rhan halved.

ArgyMargy Mon 31-Jul-17 20:57:00

I've always said this. While all the focus is on frightening young women out of going anywhere on their own, the ones far more likely to be attacked are young men. Girls nowadays are scared of their own shadow whereas boys aren't allowed to be cautious. It's all arse about face.

Fantastictwistsand Mon 31-Jul-17 21:36:36

I'll admit I was really shocked at the statistic.

Whilst I see your point Ginger if you changed the sex in your final paragraph from male to female you'd be hugely criticised for victim blaming.

Very true that if we can do something about male violence then both sexes will be better for it. Maybe this is something we should concentrate on more, not much is more motivating than self preservation.

Youcanttaketheskyfromme Mon 31-Jul-17 21:44:29

The issue isn't who the victims are. It's who the perpetrators are. Men.

Fantastictwistsand Mon 31-Jul-17 21:53:23

I think that both statistics matter.

scaryclown Mon 31-Jul-17 22:22:33

Women are 'supposed' to be afraid of assault, but are rarely assaulted, men are 'supposed' to never be afraid and go anywhere, and are infinitely more likely to be assaulted. Can you see how the different messages are at the root of the outcomes?

AssassinatedBeauty Mon 31-Jul-17 22:30:54

It's not a competition. It's not necessary to decide which group ought to be most afraid of male violence. Male violence is the problem, regardless.

More men in total are hurt/killed by other men. When women are attacked, sexually assaulted or killed it is overwhelmingly by men. Therefore both men and women ought to be afraid of male violence.

GinaFordCortina Mon 31-Jul-17 22:33:58

1/4 sexual attacks and similar number I believe for domestic violence.

Does he think you have to be murdered to be scared of men? confused

Ask him if walking down the street and being raped by a huge man would be OK for him then? Because that's the fear women have.

scaryclown Mon 31-Jul-17 23:11:22

Why increase the fear to 'always' when the facts mean you should almost never be afraid. What's your agenda?

ITCouldBeWorse Mon 31-Jul-17 23:18:32

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EveningShadows Mon 31-Jul-17 23:23:18

Way to go to blame the victim Ginger angry.

Both my brothers have been mugged at different times and in different places, one at knifepoint - should I tell them to be more careful next time?

One of my brothers was also the victim of domestic violence - that his fault too?

I get sick of the "all men are to blame" bullshit. As the sister of two wonderful men and the mum of two beautiful boys, it's bullshit.

GinaFordCortina Mon 31-Jul-17 23:44:09

Women are not rarely assaulted scary hmm

MsJuniper Tue 01-Aug-17 07:13:11

Why increase the fear to 'always' when the facts mean you should almost never be afraid. What's your agenda?

But you don't know when or where that possibility is going to become reality. If i am walking home alone at night I'll always feel afraid because there's always that vulnerability.

I agree that the focus should be on the perpetrator, whoever the victim.

sashh Tue 01-Aug-17 07:24:40

Men are usually killed by men.
Women are usually killed by men.

Women are usually killed by men they know eg partner, husband, father etc.

So although more men are killed it is the killers you should be looking at not the victims.

Someone breaks in to your house with an axe - just picture that in your mind.

Get your oh to do the same - did you see a male or a female?

Is your OH more scared of you in that situation or the person with the axe?

Then have look at male violence in general, why is the prison population overwhelmingly male?

scaryclown Tue 01-Aug-17 09:26:04

So women would be infinitely safer walking home alone in an area they know noone?

scaryclown Tue 01-Aug-17 09:30:44

It's not the men making women afraid, it's the irrationally scared women trying to get other women to join them in their agenda based paranoia.

If women are unlikely to be attacked by strangers, and unlikely to be attacked at all, and. many times more unlikely to be attacked than men or boys, why are so many of you telling women they should feel permanently afraid, whilst telling men they shouldn't be?

TimbuktuTimbuktu Tue 01-Aug-17 10:12:26

But it's about internalised blame isn't it. As women we are conditioned to believe that we are more vulnerable and to believe that if we are hurt/attacked it will be our faults unless we have complied with the 1000s of ridiculous and ever changing rules (don't drink,don't go out after dark, don't dress like that) we internalise that risk and modify our behaviours because of it.

We also fear sexual assault which is not irrational -1 in 4.

If a man is attacked walking home from the pub then it's bad luck but not his fault. Even if he was shitfaced.

I wonder if some of it is transference. The fear of strangers is clearly irrational but it is easier than fearing the men we love, who are far more likely to harm us.

I also think there are reasons why the patriarchy has evolved to operate like this. Women are taught that the outside world is full of scary men and therefore we need our nice men to protect us. It therefore restricts our freedoms and makes us more easily controlled.

It's a racket though. If it wasn't for men we wouldn't need men to protect us.

scaryclown Tue 01-Aug-17 10:30:31

'we are comditioned', sadly by posts like this. I never see mens chat rooms insisting against all available evidence that women should be afraid 24-7.

I hear it most from feminist campaigners.

I have campaigned where I live against local narratives of fear, which pegged poor areas as no go areas. In fact the crime against the person rates were lowest in those areas, but some politicians wanted to damage the reputation of those areas. Some were using a sexual assault.. An unwanted forced kiss, into 'people are always getting raped'
It's the same agenda as 'women should stay at home'
It makes me uncomfortable.

scaryclown Tue 01-Aug-17 10:31:37

And the sexual assault they used was from 2001. They are still using it 17 years later.

scaryclown Tue 01-Aug-17 10:35:19

When you say 'us' what do you mean? That every man has a shared bit of 'assault women' so every woman needs to be afraid unless that bit rises up and controls him, or do you mean the reality, which is the vast majority of women can trust the men around them all the time, but a few can't,?

scaryclown Tue 01-Aug-17 10:36:32

By the way OP you husband is saying he feels afraid sometimes.

GinaFordCortina Tue 01-Aug-17 10:57:51

Why increase the fear to 'always' when the facts mean you should almost never be afraid. What's your agenda
It's not the men making women afraid, it's the irrationally scared women trying to get other women to join them in their agenda based paranoia.

Fathers never say they don't want any man dating their daughter.

Men never say women shouldn't get drunk, go out alone, or wear revealing clothes.

There are not entire male MRA forums dedicated to teaching men how to take advantage of drunk women.

Good to know. I'm not sure who you think you can convince scary, but the women here are intelligent and better informed than you. You make yourself look, well, less so.

GinaFordCortina Tue 01-Aug-17 11:00:25

If I lived in a village that grew a particular kind of fruit and 1/4 of the people in my village had been made seriously ill because of the fruit. I wouldn't eat the fucking fruit. I'd stay well clear of the fruit.

TimbuktuTimbuktu Tue 01-Aug-17 11:16:18

I'm not saying that I agree with this. I am attempting to observe and analyse patterns of behaviour. I'm saying this is the way things are. Not the way they ought to be.

I disagree that men and non feminist women don't reinforce the stranger dAnger narrative to women.

I would argue that the logical solution is that women should be less afraid than they are but also that men should be more afraid- or at least have increased awareness of their own personal safety.

I suspect that women will always fear rape more than men though and I think that adds and additional element to the risk analysis.

What I actually think would have a massive impact on women's personal safety would be to teach all young women the signs of controlling and abusive behaviour in an intimate partner relationship. That way they might be able to spot the warnings and get away before they are seriously harmed.

ArgyMargy Tue 01-Aug-17 13:41:42

scary is right. People just can't understand statistics. Which is why they think they'll win the lottery or get blown up by Islamist extremists. Meanwhile women are in a perpetual state of fear of things that will never happen to them, while young men continue to drive like lunatics, keep their mental illnesses to themselves and go to places where they'll encounter hostility from other young men.

Fantastictwistsand Tue 01-Aug-17 14:56:32

Scary he isn't, I asked him as part of the conversation.

GinaFordCortina Tue 01-Aug-17 15:10:10

People are bad at statistics which is why they worry about Islamic terrorist and not just all men

7Days Tue 01-Aug-17 15:19:09

One in 4 is simple enough for even thickoes like me to understand.

Until they are branded with a scarlet P for predator I won't know who to be wary of.

scaryclown Tue 01-Aug-17 15:44:37

In the last but one general election, I did some market research. Nearly 50% of respondent s thought Nigel farage was likely to become prime minister, because he was on the telly alot ukip were unlikely even to get one MP.
'informed' isn't the same as 'hearing the same message over and over'

scaryclown Tue 01-Aug-17 15:48:04

One in four is unhelpful. Do you mean one in four men assault women?

GinaFordCortina Tue 01-Aug-17 15:53:12

It's only unhelpful if you're a goady fucker.

TimbuktuTimbuktu Tue 01-Aug-17 15:54:34

One in four women a victim of rape or sexual assault in their lifetime is the statistic I believe.

Aridane Tue 01-Aug-17 16:26:37

I don't know the stats - but I've always worked on the basis that men are more likely to be assaulted than women. So when I walk home alone late at night - fear free - and I'm asked, 'oh weren't you afraid?', I've always responded along the lines of OP's DH

ArgyMargy Tue 01-Aug-17 18:19:44

Same, Ariadne grin

ArgyMargy Tue 01-Aug-17 18:20:17

Well I typed Aridane but obviously my phone knew better...

Aridane Wed 02-Aug-17 17:47:55

I wanted to be Ariadne but, alas, the name was taken...

Datun Mon 07-Aug-17 10:14:59

If I'm out and about, I rarely think I might get mugged or killed. I think I might get propositioned, leered at cornered, harassed. If any of those things happens in a quiet area, then absolutely I will be worried. Because I've been specifically targeted on the basis of my sex, not my behaviour.

My job used to involve a lot of interaction with rich, middle-aged men (in a sales capacity). Sexism was a gimmee. As was low-level assault - hands on hips when squeezing by - handsy behaviour in general. Constant levels of creepiness and leching.

Men are rarely exposed to that sort of behaviour. I don't think it's any surprise that women are fully aware that that sort of behaviour can be unequivocably imposed, purely on the basis of strength.

Most women have had an example of a man using his strength to impose stuff on her. Whether it's shouting her down, coercing her into sex, or dominating generally.

To take actual murder statistics and ignore this very common experience is disingenuous.

Women are constantly reminded of the strength differential, in the way men aren't.

One in four women are the victim of sexual assault. Statistically that might mean it's someone they know, but low level harassment is experienced almost daily by men they don't know.

So yes, if someone looks like they're going to attack me I might hope that all I need do is give them my purse, but any stand-off will be completely inequal and I am fully aware than I have something they can take from me, that men don't have.

Xxfemale Thu 12-Apr-18 20:36:13

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Xxfemale Thu 12-Apr-18 20:37:41

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nellieellie Sat 03-Nov-18 19:13:30

I think the stats though, include men being assaulted when they are basically having punch ups in the pub etc. If you think about it, group of men having a row, yelling at each other. Then one guy throws a punch. It descends into fisticuffs. You could have 2 or 3 assaults there. If a woman gets attacked, it’s going to be a partner, family member, or random stranger - not brawling in the street. You also need to factor in sexual assaults - women being groped, harassed, - men don’t walk down the street in fear of that after dark.

nellieellie Sat 03-Nov-18 19:24:36 add, the stats for sexual crimes are separate, and women form vast majority of victims.

kooshbin Sat 03-Nov-18 20:31:08

Some decades ago I got into a debate with a philosophy lecturer who said he didn't understand why old people were afraid of going out at night given that most assaults victims were young males. He really couldn't get the point that the reason why most assault victims at night were young males was because the old people stayed at home.

OP - get your DP to list all the circumstances where a man can get killed or assaulted by a man. Then get him to list all the circumstances where a woman can get killed or assaulted by a man.

Yeahnahyeah Sat 01-Dec-18 07:21:55

For the love of gawd, can some of you not just see that violence to either men or woman is mainly caused in both cases by men?? Male violence is the problem. In either case.

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