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Anti-Transgendered thread in Chat

(628 Posts)
countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 12:39:58

Started off as a vague question about what makes you feel like a woman, lots of people started mentioning transwomen, naturally. Has now turned into some posters stating that transwomen are just men and shouldn't be allowed use female things like toilets and rape crisis, pretty much anything.

I find this really offensive and have stopped engaging. My personal feminism encompasses women who were born in male bodies, and supports their struggle to be recognised as women. I also think they need the protection and help of feminists as a particularly at risk group.

Is this an unusual stance? Does anyone agree with me?

ArcheryAnnie Fri 20-Feb-15 14:36:26

The community of transpeople, or one or two women who feel uncomfortable.

Pretty sure if you went out in the street and did a poll, and asked 1,000 women whether they would be prepared to share an intimate space (changing room, whatever) with someone who has a penis in the same way they do with people who are penis-less, it wouldn't be "one or two" who were "uncomfortable".

Two women are killed in the UK every week my someone with a penis. Isn't the current stat for women who have been sexually assaulted by someone with a penis about one in four? I think it's a lot more than "one or two".

And "uncomfortable" is not a good word when you are talking, for a substantial number of women, about being "traumatised".

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 14:37:39

Grays I don't mind anyone in the toilets with me!

I was making a point that if transwomen need to use the ladies then transmen surely need to be in the gents, logically. But of course many transmen might feel more comfortable in the ladies, and I wouldn't blame one who did, and would be fine by me.

But it's not logical is it. If you have men's toilets for the men and women's for the women, and then say well actually all these people can go in the women's as men can be scary...?

ArcheryAnnie Fri 20-Feb-15 14:38:09

countess I suspect we disagree on a lot (though I am pleased to see we do agree with some things), but anyway, thank you for starting this thread and engaging with people who disagree with you.

I get so disheartened on twitter, tumblr et al that discussion doesn't seem to be possible, so it's wonderful - even when difficult - to be able to talk about it here.

cailindana Fri 20-Feb-15 14:38:52

What I'm concerned about is women blindly saying "Oh poor transpeople, they're more oppressed than we are, we have to give them exactly what they want!"
What the transpeople who are actually out there expressing an opinion want is to rewrite what it means to be female and to actively prevent women from expressing anything about the actual life of a born woman.

That is not acceptable in my book.

ArcheryAnnie Fri 20-Feb-15 14:39:58

Pilchard that's exactly what is happening to women's colleges in America! Women can attend, trans women can attend, and trans men can attend.

(And of course in Canada there's a trans man appointed to a women's academic post of critic-in-residence, for furthering of a female perspective, because reasons.)

cailindana Fri 20-Feb-15 14:42:42

It is also not acceptable to tut at women and imply they're somehow silly to not want men in their safe spaces.

Men are a threat to women. Nothing is done about that - men are not convicted of rape in any great number, nothing is done to prevent men from preying on women (but women are told regularly to stop doing the things they want in order to prevent men from attacking them), women are not protected adequately from domestic violence.
But we do have safe spaces - toilets, rape crisis centres, shelters.

And now people who were born with penises want those taken away too.

Nope. Not on my watch. Stop men from killing, maiming and raping women and then we might consider it. But until then, not on your nelly.

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 14:44:13

Some Transwomen are demanding lesbians sleep with them
Some religious people are cutting people's heads off for being a different religion
Some people are demanding gays don't have equal rights

All of these things carry awful threats.

None of these things are representative of one particular social group.

I won't base my views on transwomen on the actions of some crazy extremists. The extended issue for me is how extremists manage to change legislation, but that's an entirely different discussion for a different thread.

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 14:45:03

Men are not a threat to women.

Rapist are a threat to women.
Violent people are a threat to women.

cailindana Fri 20-Feb-15 14:47:04

Eh? How is it for a different thread? Legislation is important - it protects your rights as a woman. Various legislation has come in under the radar in various countries that deny women safety.

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 14:48:13

But you can't tell which men are rapists by looking at them.

That is why women and girls are told to go out of their way and restrict their lives and all the rest of it to avoid being alone with men they don't know.

(Leaving aside that they aren't safe with men they do know and so the aboce advise is restrictive and unhelpful).

Yet a lifetime of extremely strong conditioning has to be just overcome and accepted like that <snap> and old Mrs Jenkins is a bigot if she doesn't want a person with a penis attending her if she's raped?

cailindana Fri 20-Feb-15 14:49:24

So if men are not a threat to women why are women told not to walk down dark allies? Why are they hit with posters like the ones showing a woman screaming as she's raped in an unlicensed cab? Are we just imagining the threat?

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 14:50:08

I mean that a discussion about how laws and legislation are passed is a different conversation to whether transwomen should be allowed in ladies' toilets, and could fill it's own thread.

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 14:50:27

"Men are not a threat to women.

Rapist are a threat to women.
Violent people are a threat to women."

In that case why do we have to have everybody in the blimmin bogs with us?

Loads of men would be safer away from violent men, as well.

Violent men are the problem here.

Not lesbians or feminists or rape victims or whoever is getting the finger pointed at them.

ClockwiseCat Fri 20-Feb-15 14:50:37

But the extremists are the ones setting policy. They're the ones drafting party political policies and manifestos. They are the ones lobbying charities to prioritise trans issues in a way that disadvantages women. They are the ones that get platforms, stand for election, and so on.

I have to agree with Annie, Cailin etc on this. For me transwomen are transwomen not women. They have grown up with male privilege which is rarely acknowledged and I will not have anyone telling me I can't discuss issues like menstruation, pregnancy and menopause. Especially not someone who has never experienced them.

I admire the many transwomen living their lives compassionately. I do not admire transwomen who felt like misfit males but want to maintain their male privilege now they have transitioned. 'Listen to me, women! I can tell you how to set the agenda.' Erm, no, you can't. You can fuck right off with your mansplaining even if you're wearing a skirt.

cailindana Fri 20-Feb-15 14:50:47

Yes, violent people are a threat to women. And 96% of those violent people are men.

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 14:51:22

This isn't a thread about toilets. Look at the OP.

WidowWadman Fri 20-Feb-15 14:53:47

I don't think anyone is pressurising anyone into unwanted sex to be honest. Any person is well within their rights to reject anyone for sex if they don't want it. Regardless of gender or genitalia.

However only trans people have the problem that their genitalia may not match their outward presentation, which means that people who otherwise were attracted to them may reject them when learning about their trans status much more than someone who isn't trans. It also means that they have the dilemma on when to disclose their trans status. Should they have to always disclose it to everyone, no matter if they see them as a potential sexual partner or not? Maybe wear a sign? Not having these worries makes someone privileged over those who have, doesn't it?

And is it really so offensive for trans people to exactly want to explore and talk about these problems? On here it always seems to be framed as if trans women are just after getting into lesbian's pants. Which is simplistic and dismissive.

OddBoots Fri 20-Feb-15 14:54:03

The trouble is that while you and I may regard them as crazy extremists they are actually influencing policy and law. The women who disagree with them are being no-platformed at universities, having their computers hacked and personal information published and threatened with graphically described violence.

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 14:54:09

So you see every man as a threat? You assume every man has the capacity to rape?
We're told not to walk down dark alleys because we live in a twisted culture where prevention is seen as a woman's issue, rather than 'not raping' seen as a man's.
That's different to being told not to walk down dark alleys because all men are a threat.

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 14:55:32

pilchard Yes it is

"[ that post] Has now turned into some posters stating that transwomen are just men and shouldn't be allowed use female things like toilets and rape crisis, pretty much anything.

I find this really offensive and have stopped engaging. My personal feminism encompasses women who were born in male bodies, and supports their struggle to be recognised as women. I also think they need the protection and help of feminists as a particularly at risk group.

Is this an unusual stance? Does anyone agree with me?"

cailindana Fri 20-Feb-15 14:55:40

The toilets discussion is irrelevant. A man is allowed in a women's toilet as long as he looks enough like a woman for no one to notice him. At no point are we going to have a situation where there are bouncers on women's toilets asking for proof of genitalia before admission. So let's stop banging on about something so pointless.

Legislation is the issue. Legislation that rules that transwomen must be allowed in rape crisis centres or women's prisons. Legislation such as the gender identity bill in Ontario that allowed a "transgender" man into a women's shelter where he assaulted and terrorised women. (search Ontario gender identity bill, can't link)

cailindana Fri 20-Feb-15 14:57:37

Did I say all men are a threat?

Men commit violence against women on a regular basis. Do you agree?

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 14:58:57

Hubert no I don't but surely you can see that in this and other cultures women and girls are socialised to fear being alone with men they don't know, in some cultures it is ILLEGAL. And yet they are now expected to cast this aside merrily and without a second thought?

Badgerwife Fri 20-Feb-15 14:59:37

I'm still working out my views on this subject so this thread has been really interesting. One thing that has made me question exactly how different a sense of self you might have to your born biological sex or gender are these statistics on ambiguous genitalia and chromosome anomalies
It makes the whole being physically male but 'feeling like a woman', whilst not common, certainly more so than I ever thought. All I'm saying, it's not that simple, even at a biological level

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 15:01:33

Men commit violence against women on a regular basis. Do you agree?

Yes of course. I also agree that men commit violence against men on a regular basis.
Also women commit violence against woman on a regular basis.
Women commit violence against men on a regular basis.

I don't just see men as a threat.

I see a society in which victims are ridiculed for not preventing crimes as a bigger threat. This is regardless of the gender of either the victim or the criminal.

'Sorry you got mugged but you shouldn't have gone down that dark alley' <-- that's the threat. That's what needs to change.

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