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Anti-Transgendered thread in Chat

(628 Posts)
countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 12:39:58

Started off as a vague question about what makes you feel like a woman, lots of people started mentioning transwomen, naturally. Has now turned into some posters stating that transwomen are just men and shouldn't be allowed use female things like toilets and rape crisis, pretty much anything.

I find this really offensive and have stopped engaging. My personal feminism encompasses women who were born in male bodies, and supports their struggle to be recognised as women. I also think they need the protection and help of feminists as a particularly at risk group.

Is this an unusual stance? Does anyone agree with me?

HermioneWeasley Sat 21-Feb-15 19:00:42

Cigars, I have absolutely no problem with the majority of trans women who are just trying to peacefully get on with their lives, and have had complex struggles that I will never have. No issue at all. Also no issue with transvestites. Live and let live.

I do have an issue with a vocal, aggressive and increasingly influential small group of trans activists who are trying to shut down discussion that includes aspects of women's biology because it excludes them, and to fight for the right of male bodied trans women to use women only space, particularly spaces which should be safe spaces needed by biological women because they are physically different and have had different experiences to male bodied trans women.

whatlifestylechoice Sat 21-Feb-15 19:06:45

I don't think anyone here is saying that gender is binary. We are saying it is a social construct that harms women, men, and trans people alike. How have you not got that from the last twenty pages?

cigarsofthepharaoh Sat 21-Feb-15 19:10:30

Ok. As long as there is an acknowledgement that this is a small group. The acceptance of the blatant fact that this is a minority has been pointedly lacking in this discussion.

I would like to first state that I am not talking about rape crisis centres or domestic abuse shelters. In spaces where women may have extremely negative connotations of a penis, that boundary should be protected in my opinion.

But to exclude trans women from feminist spaces just because they have/have had a penis is unnecessary. As long as trans feminists accept (which the majority do) that discussions on menstruation, vaginal rape, etc. are for women who were born as women only, why exclude them totally? Why can they not have a voice when it comes to discussion on sexism, harrassment, the exclusion of women from positions of power, equal pay, etc?

And the focus on trans women's genitalia is just furthering the policing of women's bodies by others. Their genitalia should be their own business, not a matter for intrusive public questioning. Trans men are not subjected to the same humiliating scrutiny, which should surely further prove that this obsession with trans women's genitals stems from sexism and the objectification of women's bodies?

cailindana Sat 21-Feb-15 19:17:28

"I would like to first state that I am not talking about rape crisis centres or domestic abuse shelters. In spaces where women may have extremely negative connotations of a penis, that boundary should be protected in my opinion.

But to exclude trans women from feminist spaces just because they have/have had a penis is unnecessary. As long as trans feminists accept (which the majority do) that discussions on menstruation, vaginal rape, etc. are for women who were born as women only, why exclude them totally? Why can they not have a voice when it comes to discussion on sexism, harrassment, the exclusion of women from positions of power, equal pay, etc?

And the focus on trans women's genitalia is just furthering the policing of women's bodies by others. Their genitalia should be their own business, not a matter for intrusive public questioning. Trans men are not subjected to the same humiliating scrutiny, which should surely further prove that this obsession with trans women's genitals stems from sexism and the objectification of women's bodies?"

The vocal trans minority are saying that they do want access to rape crisis centres and domestic abuse shelters. There have already been cases of "transgender" male-bodied people getting into shelters and assaulting women, because the law has allowed them to do that. So this is no a hypothetical thing.

No one has mentioned anything about excluding trans people from feminist spaces. Trans people do not accept that discussions of menstruation etc are for born women - they have had events cancelled in order to prevent women from talking about these things, on the basis that it is "trans-exclusionary."

We are not living in some fluffy world where trans people want to get along with us, cigar. We're not being nasty to lovely people who just want a nice chat about tights.

Get a clue.

cailindana Sat 21-Feb-15 19:23:05

Cigar - if you say that transwomen are women then you say that they have access to all safe spaces designated for women, including shelters, rape crisis etc. You understand that don't you?

phonyics Sat 21-Feb-15 19:28:58

Cigars I know I can't speak for anyone else, but it seems to be that most people are not saying gender is binary, but that sex is (albeit intersex also exists so perhaps not a binary exactly).

Sex is a neutral, no judgement-laden fact - it is what it is. Gender is thrust upon most people at birth and is assosicated with certain behaviours, characteristics, and restrictions. A lot of feminists believe that gender is purely a social construct.

(apologies if this feels like I'm explaining it to a 5 year old - I'm trying to get it straight in my head).

With regards to trans* issues and feminism, what I've got my head around is:

- all people are equal and are afforded human rights (because, obviously)
- some trans* people feel physical revulsion at their physical sexual characteristics and so change that medically. I can see the logic in this, in that if a major part of what you are identifying with is the physical characteristics, then changing those would alleviate some of the mismatch (sorry if that's not sensitively phrased, I can't think how else to put it).

Where it doesn't fit together for me is that a large proportion of the trans* community doesn't undertake to physically match their self-identified gender. What I am confused about is that if they are fine with their physicality, why they identiy as a woman. As I feminist, I think that gender is a social construct so there are no inherent attributes, qualities, interests, dispositions etc for either men or women, apart from 2 things: their physical sex, and the fact that their physical sex would have influenced most of the behaviour and expectations from the people around them, meaning that both boys and girls, men and women were constrained, restricted and policed, although women experience this hugely disportionately more given that they make up the majority of the population.

So I can't fit my ideas that gender is forced upon us rather than innate with the idea that we have "male or female brains" or that we have an inner "essential gender". If we're all just people who come in an infinite kaleidoscope of patterns and constellations then how can someone feel "like a man" or "like a woman"? Surely you can only feel what you are feeling, and not know how anyone else would feel? I'm really uncomfortable with this as I don't want to erase anyone's experience - I would genuinely love to know as something I just don't know.

cigarsofthepharaoh Sat 21-Feb-15 19:33:06

Excuse me, I have read the whole thread and there have been people saying that trans women should be excluded from all feminist spaces. And many vocal feminists have stated the same - and tried to exclude trans women from feminist events as a whole. Not just the parts of it that pertained only to women born women. The whole thing. And I think it's reasonable to protest that as exclusionary.

It is a minority. You state that once, and then lump all trans people in together. "Trans people do not accept..." "Trans people want to..." Yes, a minority is extreme and unreasonable and threatening. But to lump every trans person in with them is offensive and not conducive to a reasoned discussion.

So your solution is to deny all trans people their gender identity? And by saying "trans gender" in quotation marks, that is what you are doing. I would never call you a "woman" or a "feminist" because that would be highly offensive and dismissive to you and your experiences.

There will always be people who take advantage of a situation. Women and trans women alike. This would be punishing the majority so severely for the acts of a very small number.

In no situation can everyone be placated and safe. Some sort of compromise needs to be sought.

phonyics Sat 21-Feb-15 19:33:16

Whoops, that took so long to type out I x-posted blush

cailindana Sat 21-Feb-15 19:34:40

I said "transgender" because that man simply used being "transgender" as an excuse to rape women.

cailindana Sat 21-Feb-15 19:36:56

To clarify, that man wasn't transgender, he was a rapist who used laws designed for transgender people in order to gain access to a shelter.

To clarify cigar, is it your position that transwomen should be seen as women except when it comes to rape crisis centres, shelters etc?

venusinscorpio Sat 21-Feb-15 19:37:19

Your view of the world is not the only one that matters

Nor is theirs, cigars. My view counts too. My identity counts too. I entirely reject the label "cis". If I don't believe transwomen are the same as biological women that is my right. If they want to consider themselves women, that's their right too, but you can't force people to accept them as such. They are legally accepted as women. This does not mean that they actually are women. They are transwomen. I would happily campaign for them to be accepted as such and to be free from discrimination. But not for people with penises to be admitted to female safe spaces or for their issues to be prioritised over the vast majority of women's so that issues which concern them is all we are allowed to talk about in feminist spaces.

cigarsofthepharaoh Sat 21-Feb-15 19:38:41

Cailin if it wasn't an actual transgendered person, then why the revulsion towards trans women being given equal protection from men?

There will always be people who abuse the system. There is no getting away from that.

cigarsofthepharaoh Sat 21-Feb-15 19:44:03

venus I accept that. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I'm just arguing that it is denying their life experiences to suggest that they are just men playing at dresses and frills, and denying their identity to state so categorically that they are not women. In your opinion, they are not. In my opinion, they are. In their opinion, they are.

You can campaign for trans issues and intersectionality within feminism without campaigning for trans issues to be all that is discussed. The extreme trans activists who do campaign for that are not intersectional and their opinions oppose many other trans activists who believe that trans feminism is a part of feminism, not the defining feature.

Again, this obsession with penises. Can we stop policing and invading trans women's bodies please? If they present as female and live as female and their penis is not intruding in your life or in anyone else's life, what is its relevance here?

venusinscorpio Sat 21-Feb-15 19:47:25

There will always be people who abuse the system. There is no getting away from that.

It's nice that you so blithely dismiss this. Which was directly caused by legally having to admit people with penises into a female safe space.

cailindana Sat 21-Feb-15 19:48:06

"There will always be people who abuse the system. There is no getting away from that"

So we are supposed to just accept that women can have no safe spaces, even when escaping domestic violence or rape?

"Again, this obsession with penises. Can we stop policing and invading trans women's bodies please? If they present as female and live as female and their penis is not intruding in your life or in anyone else's life, what is its relevance here?"

Penises are mentioned because we're not allowed to say "man" so it's to distinguish people who have vaginas from people who have penises.

How does someone present as female?

PilchardPrincess Sat 21-Feb-15 19:48:35

" Can we stop policing and invading trans women's bodies please? "

Seriously?

This is one of the major features of being a woman isn't it? Having your body policed, commented on by strangers, being told it's wrong, that bits of it aren't right, maybe you should have some surgery, having all sorts of invasive medical procedures, and people keeping from you what the consequences of various procedures can be, and what you can and can't do with your body and when.

Welcome to the "team".

PilchardPrincess Sat 21-Feb-15 19:49:55

And of course the very real possibility of people (male generally) actually invading it with a pinch, slap, grope, fondle, finger, tongue, or cock.

So what's new? This is life isn't it. Women's bodies aren't their own, never have been.

Fiarni Sat 21-Feb-15 19:50:03

I also reject the label "cis".

There is already a name for an adult human being born with female genitalia: that word is "woman". And that is what I am. Not a ciswoman.

I agree with venus. Our opinions count too, our views are valid. And my vew is that people born with male genitalia are not women, no matter how many dresses they wear, how much surgery they have. They may choose to live as what they perceive to be a woman, but it does not make them women.

I have had experiences which I do not wish to describe in detail that would make me extremely reluctant to make use of rape crisis centres or other such spaces that were not exclusively open to women. I strongly resent their intrusion on my safety, their intrusion on discussions of womanhood that I might otherwise have been able to have with fellow women.

phonyics Sat 21-Feb-15 19:51:12

I accept that's what it sounds like I'm advocating but it's not - I just can't see how to reconcile gender is a social construct with gender is an essential, innate thing. It sounds like they are two diametrically opposing views so whilst I support individual trans* people to live as they wish, the underlying philosophies seem at loggerheads.

Fiarni Sat 21-Feb-15 20:09:05

I have just noticed this in cigarsofthepharaoh's post above:

"Can we stop policing and invading trans women's bodies please? If they present as female and live as female"

What does that even mean, present as female and live as female?

How does one present as female?

cigarsofthepharaoh Sat 21-Feb-15 20:20:54

Presenting is a commonly used term in the queer and trans community. It does not mean frilly dresses and make up, before anyone assumes that. It just means that they are presenting themselves to the world as female - when they go to the shops, they go there as a woman, trying to look like a woman.

Some lesbians present butch. Some present femme. Some don't present as either. It isn't about stereotypes, it's about how you present yourself to the world.

In the same way that you might go to work dressed up nicely, or go to the park in a tracksuit.

cailindana Sat 21-Feb-15 20:22:12

Yes, but how does one "look like a woman" cigars?

PilchardPrincess Sat 21-Feb-15 20:22:59

So confirming to the prevailing accepted norms of appearance for a male or female person.

PilchardPrincess Sat 21-Feb-15 20:23:23

conforming. not confirming

cigarsofthepharaoh Sat 21-Feb-15 20:24:41

Yes, women's bodies are policed and invaded. That was my point. Why are we, as women, as feminists, imposing this on anyone else? Why are we taking what oppresses us and using it to do the same to another group of people?

I didn't meant that we should just accept that people abuse spaces. But it is unfair to punish every trans woman for the actions of a man who takes advantage of their struggle. Trans women who suffer violence and abuse at the hands of men are in a very similar situation to many abused women. But we exclude them due to the actions of a few violent and abusive men who take advantage of the acceptance of vulnerable trans women into these shelters.

cailindana Sat 21-Feb-15 20:26:49

How does a someone "look like a woman" cigars?

Fiarni Sat 21-Feb-15 20:27:17

Is there some sort of checklist of things to do in order to look like a woman??

I just am a woman. I always look like a woman because it is what I am. Butch lesbians look like women too.

FloraFox Sat 21-Feb-15 20:28:25

This whole situation is a gaslighting head fuck. How do we come to a situation where there are 52 options to label your "gender identity" but there is no acceptable collective noun for those people born with a vagina? Half of the population are slotted into a crappy, second class box as soon as the vagina is spotted and sometimes aborted before birth based on the vagina being spotted. If we want to figure out how to dismantle the crappy, second class box and make a better box, how can we do this without naming and analysing the basis of how we are slotted in?

How is it that people slotted into the first class box and raised in the first class box (even if they have to sit at the back, they are still in first class) can say that they must be women because of a feeling that 99% of women say they do not feel?

PilchardPrincess Sat 21-Feb-15 20:28:51

It's not feminists who are performing invasive tests on trans poeple confused

It's the (historically male dominated) medical community.

Fiarni Sat 21-Feb-15 20:32:02

Your last post on page 21 is very worrying to me, cigars

If there is a need for shelters for these people who call themselves women, then by all means build them.

But no, I do not wish to see them in shelters for women. I would stay away from such a shelter that welcomed men who perceive themselves as women. Is my vulnerability less deserving? Are my experiences to be discounted?

PilchardPrincess Sat 21-Feb-15 20:33:08

If a woman "presents" as a man, and has interests that are deemed masculine by society, what is she then?

Is this why some trans people get so fucked off with lesbians? Because they are attracted to women, and sometimes have short hair (masculine) and don't conform to feminine standards of dress. But they're still women. Does that not fit with the world-view.

There is a thing about "butch" lesbians being told they ought to be men isn't there? Or am I remembering that wrong. I'm sure I heard someone talking about it.

FloraFox Sat 21-Feb-15 20:39:31

Transwomen are excluded from women's shelters for the same reason men are excluded from women's shelters to protect women from abuse by men.

And there have been studies which show that transwomen commit crimes at the same level, and same types of crime, as men and vice versa with transmen.

There is a whole lot of gaslighting going on in the narrative that transwomen pose no risk to women.

Fiarni Sat 21-Feb-15 20:45:23

FloraFox the crime statistics just illustrate my point: these people are not women. I see no reason why the rest of us should pander to their delusions to the detriment of our own safety and well-being.

cailindana Sat 21-Feb-15 20:51:08

I've asked the question a few times: how does someone "appear feminine" or "look like a woman." There's still no answer to that one.

cigarsofthepharaoh Sat 21-Feb-15 21:05:33

Walk into any shop right now and you will almost certainly be able to tell the difference between the men and the women. And there's your answer.

Gender may be a social construct, but it hasn't been deconstructed yet. We are operating within that construct and to deny that is absurd. Come back to me when you've deconstructed it and maybe you'll have a point then.

cigarsofthepharaoh Sat 21-Feb-15 21:08:35

Pilchard, do not even get me started on the whole lesbian-trans divide. I have at times spent half my life justifying my relationship to radical lesbians who demand to know why I am with a person who isn't a cisgendered female, and the other half defending my sexuality to radical trans people who demand to know why I am (well, was) a butch-presenting lesbian who still identified as cisgendered. But I recognise that those are radical and extreme factions within the queer and trans communities. I don't make sweeping generalisations about them.

cailindana Sat 21-Feb-15 21:23:58

How does one fell the difference between men and women cigars? Their clothes? Is it all based on clothes?

Bellimperia Sat 21-Feb-15 21:32:27

Nor is theirs, cigars. My view counts too. My identity counts too. I entirely reject the label "cis". If I don't believe transwomen are the same as biological women that is my right. If they want to consider themselves women, that's their right too, but you can't force people to accept them as such. They are legally accepted as women. This does not mean that they actually are women. They are transwomen. I would happily campaign for them to be accepted as such and to be free from discrimination. But not for people with penises to be admitted to female safe spaces or for their issues to be prioritised over the vast majority of women's so that issues which concern them is all we are allowed to talk about in feminist spaces.

I'm copying venusinscorpio's post as she puts it so much better than I could. I agree with all of it. I'm new to all of this and find it deeply deeply worrying.

RufusTheReindeer Sat 21-Feb-15 21:38:23

bell

Completely agree with you both

I don't believe that any person in possession of a penis is a woman

cigarsofthepharaoh Sat 21-Feb-15 21:42:58

Cailin, for some, clothes would give some indication. For others, it wouldn't. I took my children to the supermarket today in entirely "men's" clothes. I doubt anyone thought I was their father. If you're going to be so obtuse that you are claiming not to know how to tell the difference between men and women, I don't know how to engage with you in intelligent discussion.

Bellimperia, rans women are not "people with penises" though. They are trans women. They are women. They were born into the wrong sex and pay for that perceived misdeed their whole lives.

And the majority of trans activists, let alone trans people, do not want what venus says that do. They want to be included in feminism, not appropriate it. Intersectionality, by its very definition, does not prioritise the needs of one group of women over another. How is that a bad thing?

FloraFox Sat 21-Feb-15 21:44:30

the men and the women. And there's your answer.

Yes for the most part we can, even if the men are wearing dresses.

cailindana Sat 21-Feb-15 21:52:49

"Cailin, for some, clothes would give some indication. For others, it wouldn't. I took my children to the supermarket today in entirely "men's" clothes. I doubt anyone thought I was their father. If you're going to be so obtuse that you are claiming not to know how to tell the difference between men and women, I don't know how to engage with you in intelligent discussion."

I am not claiming not to be able to tell the difference between women and men cigars. I certainly can tell the difference, because they look different, regardless of the clothes they're wearing. I rarely wear "feminine" clothes but I definitely look like a woman and it's easy to see that I am a woman.

If a person who has none of the biological characteristics of a woman, how do they "present as a woman"?

If a person who was born with a penis is a woman, what does the word woman mean cigar?

cailindana Sat 21-Feb-15 21:59:02

Actually to reframe the question, if someone who has none of the biological characteristics of woman, who wasn't brought up female, can be a woman, what does the word "woman" actually mean? What would be the dictionary definition of "woman" such that it includes transgender people?

Bellimperia Sat 21-Feb-15 22:08:02

Bellimperia, rans women are not "people with penises" though. They are trans women. They are women.

I have no problem with accepting them as trans women but I do have a problem with the fact that because they can be legally defined as women without a change in their physical 'state', they can demand/ gain access to female safe spaces. Anyone with any knowledge or experience of male to female violence and abuse would understand why the presence of a physical male body in this environment would be unacceptable and deeply traumatic for the females needing the shelter.

FloraFox Sat 21-Feb-15 22:13:09

cigars is this what you mean by "presents as a woman"?

https://twitter.com/LewdlyCordy/media

Bellimperia Sat 21-Feb-15 22:16:11

And the majority of trans activists, let alone trans people, do not want what venus says that do. They want to be included in feminism

But there appears to be a very vocal minority who tries to dictate the agenda and objects to events focused on women's issues. And who aggressively campaigns to 'no platform' people who disagree with them. And how can it be possible that events discussing menstruation or a performance of the vagina monologues are cancelled because they are trans exclusionary? Or are these just urban myths ?

cigarsofthepharaoh Sat 21-Feb-15 22:22:08

Cailin, try reading this www.autostraddle.com/rebel-girls-waiter-theres-some-theory-in-my-gender-271633/. It's written by a trans activist on a political and social queer women's website.

HermioneWeasley Sat 21-Feb-15 22:23:28

I am trying to work out why I am so very angry about this, and why it's occupying so much of my headspace, and it guess it's because I feel duped, lied to and taken advantage of.

I have fought for trans rights, the very rights that are now being used to silence women and encroach on women only space, and I am angry about it. I feel like I have aided and abetted the enemy.

cailindana Sat 21-Feb-15 22:25:56

I understand the whole sex/gender thing. I am asking you, what is the definition of 'woman'?

HermioneWeasley Sat 21-Feb-15 22:28:10

And what I cannot get my head around is as follows

If gender is the social construct that doesn't really exist, but biological sex does exist, how can you "feel like a woman" but still be male bodied? If you're using the outward trappings of what society deems masculine and feminine, but keeping your biologically male body, aren't you actually reinforcing traditional notions of gender?

stillwearingaredribbon Sat 21-Feb-15 22:39:36

I have been following both threads with interest but it just looks like the same old stuff
men deciding what happens to women

Bellimperia Sat 21-Feb-15 22:46:51

it just looks like the same old stuff men deciding what happens to women

yes, I agree. I think this is why I find it so upsetting.

cailindana Sat 21-Feb-15 23:54:45

I'm curious to hear from anyone who believe a transwoman is a woman, what the definition of "woman" is.

ArcheryAnnie Sun 22-Feb-15 06:04:29

I am trying to work out why I am so very angry about this, and why it's occupying so much of my headspace, and it guess it's because I feel duped, lied to and taken advantage of.

I have fought for trans rights, the very rights that are now being used to silence women and encroach on women only space, and I am angry about it. I feel like I have aided and abetted the enemy.

Yes, this, Hermione. For my whole life I've regarded trans people as political siblings under the LGBT banner, and I feel totally used, and stabbed in the back. As a woman, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by this.

BuffytheThunderLizard Sun 22-Feb-15 12:21:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HermioneWeasley Sun 22-Feb-15 13:04:42

Analogy with race is really interesting

Fiarni Sun 22-Feb-15 13:48:18

I agree, the race analogy puts it into perspective, or it should.

The clothes analogy that cigars used was quite offensive - the implication that womanhood is just like wearing a suit of clothes that can be changed.

I will never accept people born with male genitalia as women, because they are not women and never can be women. They can live however they choose, it is none of my concern if make up and dresses is their thing (it isn't mine). But they are not women.

Usually, when people suffer from delusions, it means they need psychiatric help, not that everyone else should pander to their delusions.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers Sun 22-Feb-15 14:51:00

The fuck does trans abled mean?

ArcheryAnnie Sun 22-Feb-15 15:02:59

Able-bodied people who think that deep down they are disabled, Ehric. Appropriative bastards who think they should have all the glorious "advantages" of being disabled. Presumably without the chronic pain, but who the fuck knows. I bet (using the trans model) there are some who are "ablefluid" or some such bollocks, "shifting" between being abled and disabled.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers Sun 22-Feb-15 15:27:47

I see. And instead of challenging these delusions via appropriate therapy does the NHS provide amputations in order that people can present as disabled to the world?

stillwearingaredribbon Sun 22-Feb-15 15:36:33

There was a surgeon in Newcastle who performed amputations
I watched a documentary a few years ago following people
He had people travel from other countries where they wouldn't perform the surgery
IIRC there was a public outcry and surgery was halted

PilchardPrincess Sun 22-Feb-15 16:20:54

I sort of remember that. The people involved, I think IIRC, felt a lot better after they had had the surgery?

There was one woman that he / someone else wouldn't do as she wanted double amputation of her legs completely. I think the gist was amputation up to the knee is not so limiting so OK, over the knee is more drastic, but both legs fully removed was just too far even for someone who was sympathetic to the feelings of the people.

It was years ago though so that may not be 100%. May even have been a different prog to your one stillwearing.

zlipt Sun 22-Feb-15 16:24:56

I have been a bit amused by the squirrel comparisons in the other thread 'cause a lot of transactivist tactics (twitterstorm used to be called dogpiling back in the day) and rhetoric is straight out of Fursecution!2004. It's so so weird to see these Proper Grownups With Names people in the mainstream/mundane internet crashing into SJWs and fandom wankers, and (understandably) not understanding the byzantine connections between this behaviour and shipwars, 4chan, memers, b/tards and their repressed fursonas...the whole crazy ass lot of them have a mode of engagement that is tribal and hostile in the extreme and which above all conceptualises the self as a story you are telling in that moment, which, like a comicbook, can be retconned or recast or totally rebooted at any moment and in any context (you can have multiple contexts). The only rule is that you are the creative God of your self story, the arbiter of all truth, and so to have your self story contradicted by someone is the ultimate violence, like destroying the universe. (Basically it's the Neverending Story.)

BuffytheThunderLizard Sun 22-Feb-15 16:34:47

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

zlipt Sun 22-Feb-15 16:36:45

Right, exactly. Other people are just words on a screen. The important thing is to make the words support your narrative.

PilchardPrincess Sun 22-Feb-15 17:10:08

I sort of understand that. It makes sense.

But some people want these things in real life. At which point it's not word on a screen is it. So then what?

PilchardPrincess Sun 22-Feb-15 17:23:24

Do you sort of mean that when people say they want words changed they aren't sort of considering the impact on other people, or that's just not relevant, or they don't care, or the other people aren't real, or what?

Thinking of something like FGM, getting it changed to GM, which then encompasses male circumcision as well and dilutes the efforts of people wanting to help the group formerly known as girls. Is that just, collateral damage? Irrelevant? They are over there so they don't matter?

I don't really understand.

zlipt Sun 22-Feb-15 17:32:16

It's that other people aren't really as real as you are. They are extras or audience or mirrors. Of course you can't completely rid yourself of the suspicion that you are the extra, so you must continually assert your identity or else you will cease to exist. This is the violence of erasure, which can only be fought with representation.

PilchardPrincess Sun 22-Feb-15 17:39:22

Blimey.

So what you're saying is they need to get out more grin

BuffytheThunderLizard Sun 22-Feb-15 17:39:41

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ArcheryAnnie Sun 22-Feb-15 17:42:07

That makes sense, zlipt, with all the assertions that words hurt them, but their actions never hurt anyone else, however violent and extreme they are, and whatever they do. Because if they are always the heroes in their own stories, then they are always, always the character that matters most.

zlipt Sun 22-Feb-15 18:43:18

Well, it's no accident Second Life is so popular with transfolk (who are clearly no longer driving this train imo).

Transfolk sometimes identify some of these connections in a no true scotsman kind of way, but more mainstream transfolk (or anyfolk) don;t fully understand how amazingly toxic and mad people like this can be and how they can weaponise and subvert your community and end up being persuaded into the more alluring self deceptions. Cause the thing is they can tell good stories.

PilchardPrincess Sun 22-Feb-15 21:01:46

Interesting link, I've been having fun reading all about gender tests and their take on them. Thanks smile

ArcheryAnnie Mon 23-Feb-15 11:39:37

Owen Jones is outside the National Gallery today with a megaphone, speaking in support of striking workers. Am severely tempted to turn up with a placard and twenty friends to tell him and everyone else present how "transphobic" he is to get so offended by being asked whether he would ever be willing to have sex with a trans man. Because cunnilingus with a trans man's male vagina is obviously different than cunnilingus on a woman (ew! disgusting! don't you know he's gay!), and he's clearly a horrible, horrible bigot to be so hung up on the contents of people's underwear. See how long his liberal values last then.

Bonus points, obviously, as his National Gallery appearance has nothing to do with trans issues.

MrsTawdry Mon 23-Feb-15 12:05:56

Annie Owen Jones supports the trans community. Maybe he doesn't want to answer questions about his personal sex life.

his article about supporting the trans community

BuffytheThunderLizard Mon 23-Feb-15 12:13:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

zlipt Mon 23-Feb-15 12:17:21

There's a shitton of insightful critique of transactivists coming from inside the trans community but no one's listening cause transactivists bring the lulz.

/reality-check, gender-minefield, sometranslady, radfems are right...

In this new mainstreaming, transactivists leverage the low-disgust self-identification of public liberals to manipulate them into supporting obviously repellent individuals. It's the same psychological trick PUAs use (it's described quite well in the Gift of Fear). Anyway, the way it goes here is, as a progressive you support human rights unconditionally, in opposition to conservatives who only support them for righteous people. It's important to your self-conception to be open minded. So the most liberal person supports, for example, human rights in prison for pedorapists. (I certainly do!) It's totally easy to subvert that into a situation where people (to support their identity as a liberal/progressive) end up working hardest to support the trans woman who looks and acts the least like a woman, who most challenges their "wrongness" reflex, which they are ideologically committed to rejecting as a system of morality. In fact the crazier and more violent she acts and the uglier and more masculine she is, the more you support her.

Hullygully Mon 23-Feb-15 12:23:32

It's (born)men demanding things of (born)women.

Again. As ever. Surprise.

That's what pisses me off.

ArcheryAnnie Mon 23-Feb-15 12:23:48

MrsTawdry Owen is perfectly happy to praise, support and quote trans activists who attack lesbians for being "transphobic" for not wanting to have sex with people with penises. Some lesbians have come under a real barrage of abuse for saying that no, they will not contemplate sleeping with anyone who has a penis, whatever their identity.

Owen Jones is a hypocritical fucker if he thinks it's OK to ask women that, and to totally ignore the abuse his new comrades heap on lesbians, but terrible to ask him exactly the same question.

Hullygully Mon 23-Feb-15 12:27:34

I think it's because Owen is new to it all. A lot of people think that way until they get deeper into it. <hopeful>

MrsTawdry Mon 23-Feb-15 12:31:10

I just don't see what people's preferences have to do with anyone else at all! People are so varied...you can't neatly box us all off into catagories! And unless the sex is illegal or abusive it's fuck all to do with anyone what anyone else does!

So what if lesbians don't want sex with penis owners!? So what if trans men don't want sex with WHOEVER! It's private, varied and personal. There's no debate.

TheCowThatLaughs Mon 23-Feb-15 12:31:51

He could have had a bit of a think and a read round the subject before he did his article though hmm

ethelb Mon 23-Feb-15 12:33:36

Has Owen Jones said what he thinks straight men should do if a trans woman wants to sleep with them?

MrsTawdry Mon 23-Feb-15 12:33:38

Yes probably. He's a brilliant man...a YOUNG man though...I will always admire him.

MrsTawdry Mon 23-Feb-15 12:34:07

x post. My "probably" was for Cow

ArcheryAnnie Mon 23-Feb-15 12:35:14

There's no debate.

I completely agree with you, MrsTawdry but Owen Jones is actively supporting and promoting the people who have made it into a debate, while holding himself above it all. Hence: hypocritical fucker.

Hullygully Mon 23-Feb-15 12:39:06

He could TheCow, my hopeful thought is that it was a knee jerk mea culpa response to his first hearing of the (soi disant) issue and he will have time to get his little self educated and then do a much bigger mea culpa.

TheCowThatLaughs Mon 23-Feb-15 12:45:32

I expect you're both right, hully and mrstawdry. The information is out there after all!

MrsTawdry Mon 23-Feb-15 13:51:10

It's a complex subject and he really should do his research. I know very little but I know that I wouldn't be talking publicly about it.

FloraFox Mon 23-Feb-15 15:29:50

Ally Fogg also had an attack of the vapours on twitter the other day when asked about having sex with a non-op transwoman. He then dismissed the lesbians telling them their experiences of being called bigots as "paranoid nonsense". This issue really makes it clear who listens to women's voices and who wants to talk over women. And men wonder why women don't want them involved in feminism.

So many hypocritical fuckers.

ArcheryAnnie Mon 23-Feb-15 15:44:22

Jesus, Flora, I've just looked at Fogg's TL. What a fucking tool he is. Women say "violence of type x happens to lesbians" and he replies - without drawing breath to enquire about evidence - that they are talking "paranoid nonsense". That's made me so angry.

FloraFox Mon 23-Feb-15 15:51:57

Annie I'd love to be shocked by that interaction. It does make me think of Germaine Greer's quote that women have no idea how much men hate them. Or Ally Fogg could just be an individual fucking tool. Or both.

heartisaspade Mon 23-Feb-15 15:59:59

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HouseWhereNobodyLives Mon 23-Feb-15 16:07:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OddBoots Mon 23-Feb-15 16:08:22

The person in the video was being cheered because it was a rally of people who think the same way.

heartisaspade Mon 23-Feb-15 16:23:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheCowThatLaughs Mon 23-Feb-15 18:00:53

Justin killian has gone one step further and can't even be arsed to go to the trouble of putting a dress on before he declares himself a woman shock

heartisaspade Mon 23-Feb-15 18:08:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox Mon 23-Feb-15 18:31:50

There's a few of them like that.

This is a long read but quite comprehensive on the background to this issue:

FloraFox Mon 23-Feb-15 18:32:30

www.weeklystandard.com/articles/transgender-triumph_859614.html?page=3

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