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Anti-Transgendered thread in Chat

(628 Posts)
countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 12:39:58

Started off as a vague question about what makes you feel like a woman, lots of people started mentioning transwomen, naturally. Has now turned into some posters stating that transwomen are just men and shouldn't be allowed use female things like toilets and rape crisis, pretty much anything.

I find this really offensive and have stopped engaging. My personal feminism encompasses women who were born in male bodies, and supports their struggle to be recognised as women. I also think they need the protection and help of feminists as a particularly at risk group.

Is this an unusual stance? Does anyone agree with me?

CuddlesfromChickens Fri 20-Feb-15 13:09:12

And of course a rape crisis centre should be available to anyone who has been raped or sexually assaulted regardless of gender.

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 13:09:59

Countess which groups are you petitioning to support and protect trans men?

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 13:10:16

Ubik Biology indicates your sex, not your gender.

rinabean Fri 20-Feb-15 13:10:37

So transmen aren't included? They can be raped and get pregnant but they don't count amongst the rest of us who have that in common. They're paid less and have had worse education throughout their lives but they're not "part of your feminism" (what does that mean rofl)

If you say yes no of course I don't exclude transmen then you are a pathetic weak person who thinks feminism is for everyone who isn't a mega manly man with 5 penises. Ie you think "woman" is not a thing, "female" is not a thing, all it means is "absolutely anyone or anything that isn't a man, because that's what it means to be a woman: to not be a man". You are not a feminist if you cannot come up with a positive definition of being a woman. I am not a deformed or failed man, I do not have penis envy, I am not the thing men can use to further the male species, I am a woman, I am female, and feminism is for people like me

Of course, if you say yes they're not anything to do with feminism you're the typical straight woman who loves anything with a dick and hates lesbians or anything that reminds her of lesbians. But I was assuming you were just being ignorant and not malicious so I focused on you saying they should be included

EhricLovesTheBhrothers Fri 20-Feb-15 13:10:40

There's a very interesting thread going on here about trans women and feminism ' cis lesbians and trans women' iirc.
Trans activists and feminists are fellow travellers only in as much as they both want freedom from oppression based on appearance and gender and male violence. Other than that they are philosophically quite different.

Notrevealingmyidentity Fri 20-Feb-15 13:11:43

Ms

I'd have to say I don't know. I can't imagine how it must feel to have gone through that. I'd imagine some women may want a man free space other might only associate it with their abuser.

The only vaguely relevant experience I can add is I was once mugged in the street by a man. For a while I couldn't tolerate anyone walking behind me. After a bit it receded to only not being able to tolerate a man walking behind or near to me.
Eventually it faded to a man who looked like xyz or dressed in a similar way hen faded altogether.

countess
I would really we hope we an accommodate both. I think some centres do in fact.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:11:49

None, Pilchard, since I'm not petitioning anyone on any subject.
And since this is a feminist support topic, its not unusual that I'm focusing on women, is it?
I'm not sure of your point?

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 13:13:09

The issue with a rape crisis centre iirc was a trans woman wanting to work in one.

Many men are raped, children too, all should be supported in the best way possible. If only more funding was available.

ArcheryAnnie Fri 20-Feb-15 13:13:29

Personally I feel its the role of feminists to support and encompass all women

So do I.

and I include transwomen in that population.

I used to, but I don't now. The trans women I know live as women, and have rejected maleness, but also respect other women's boundaries. They don't feel entitled to women's energy or women's space, and don't deny either their male bodies (even when transitioned) or their male past. They describe themselves as trans women, not women, and don't see that acknowledging their male bodies, male past and male privilege takes anything away from their own lives. They - ironically enough - are often treated very badly by trans "allies" and other trans women.

My own personal feminism seeks to give extra support to vulnerable groups of women, but thats personal feeling.

Yes, so does mine. That's why I refuse to let women be moved to the back of every queue, and that's why I refuse to expect women to always and forever have to put other people's wellbeing and safety before their own.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:14:36

Rina you can call me a "pathetic weak person" if you like, it really doesn't bother me, but telling me what I think does bother me, especially when you have it so wrong.
How about you attempt a respectful conversation where we each decide what we think and share it, rather than be so rude?

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 13:15:26

Well trans men are at risk, as well as anyone else. Why are you only posting about trans women?

Notrevealingmyidentity Fri 20-Feb-15 13:16:19

hubert

I would hope it would be taken in the way that these women feel vulnerable regardless of anyone's intentions and need somewhere they feel safe.

OddBoots Fri 20-Feb-15 13:17:02

Of course there are many different beliefs within feminism but one of the more common and more important is that gender is a social construct that has been used to oppress women. Gender isn't biological sex, is is social and cultural and as such is is a suppression that needs to be removed.

From a trans perspective gender is the thing that is separate to their biological sex that makes them a woman (or a man) despite their biology.

To accept a transwoman entirely and unquestionably as a woman, even when that transwoman has a male biology is to accept gender as an acceptable construct.

Women are being asked to view the key to their oppression as something they should not only be okay with but that they should fight to preserve.

WasabiPeace Fri 20-Feb-15 13:17:14

On a personal level I have no problem with accepting transwomen as women.

On a political level I don't understand why Feminists are being constantly told that WE need to fight harder for the rights of transwomen than of born women.

Because when it comes down to it I don't accept that any amount of hormones or surgery will make you change your biological sex. Sorry and all that but that's my view.

Ubik1 Fri 20-Feb-15 13:17:40

Well yes - but your biological sex has implications fir your entire development and gender conditioning.

Born with a vagina? Well a whole host of biological process take place including hormones which shape the way you develop. In turn social conditioning also shapes you into a socialised 'woman' with all expectations therein.

I find the distinction between sex and gender is there but very hard to separate because the two are so tightly entwined from the very beginning of life.

So if someone is transgender - biologically they will have developed as 'male' with biological processes but will then 'feel female.'

'Feeling female' is the thing I have difficulty understanding. What is that?

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:17:45

Annie so why are you happy to put transwomen to the back of the queue? Why do you seek to put transwomen and born women in opposition to each other? And how does it negatively affect born women to also support transwomen?

You say the transwomen you have met all think one way. Surely you don't think ALL transwomen think this one way? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

MsMittens Fri 20-Feb-15 13:19:12

Notrevealing sorry to learn about your mugging experience, that must have been horrible.

I don't know either but as you and others say I would hate to deny anyone access to a rape/DV clinic if they needed it regardless of gender identification.

rina transmen have specifically identified themselves as women and have chosen to live as such - they have actively rejected being male. In saying I would not exclude them, I am saying I would not exclude anyone who positively identifies as being a women/female. That doesn't make me a pathetic weak person but ta for the insult.....

ArcheryAnnie Fri 20-Feb-15 13:19:19

Many men are raped, children too, all should be supported in the best way possible. If only more funding was available.

All this is true, but the current rape crisis and DV shelters were set up, in circumstances of very great difficulty, by women - often working class women with little access to money or influence, and very often lesbians. If men and trans women want shelters which accept men and/or trans women, why don't they put the work in to make that happen?

(And anyway, a substantial number of women's shelters do accept trans women, thus making the space inaccessible for women whose trauma means that space which has people with penises in it is not a place of refuge. yet again, women come last.)

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:19:59

Ah come on Wasabi, you're not being fair
>>>>On a political level I don't understand why Feminists are being constantly told that WE need to fight harder for the rights of transwomen than of born women. <<<<

Who is constantly telling you this? And who said fight harder for transwomen than born women? Nobody here. Nobody ever, I think. Just asking for a tiny share in the space. No need to exaggerate so to have a sensible discussion.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:22:12

Annie, so what about transwomen without penises, post surgery? Where do they come in to it? Can they access female spaces?

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 13:22:19

OddBoots Well said.

I'm surprised at the posters who 'can't understand' how anyone can 'suddenly decide' to be a different gender. Just because it's a feeling, emotion, or journey you've never experienced, doesn't mean it isn't valid or doesn't exist. I hate that 'I'm OK so screw you jack' mentality.

If you have grown up identifying 'correctly' with what our society has decided are the emotions, likes, and attributes of your sex, you are very lucky. If how you feel inside bears absolutely no resemblance to how you're told you should be feeling... well that's what it is!

I love this quote from All About My Mother:

"Well, as I was saying, it costs a lot to be authentic, ma'am. And one can't be stingy with these things because you are more authentic the more you resemble what you've dreamed of being."

WasabiPeace Fri 20-Feb-15 13:23:55

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

You are fighting for transwomen to share woman-only over the objections of the born women who use them.

THAT is fighting harder for the rights of transwomen than women.

ethelb Fri 20-Feb-15 13:24:15

OP I used to feel like you and then went to a couple of feminist conferences/goups in the past year. Almost all debates were dominated by men in skirts (I really didn't want to see them in that way, but it was the way they were behaving) telling biological-born women that they were wrong to not prioritise what these men in skirts wanted. And what did they want? To tell women that they had to a) include them b) how they were going to include them and c) that biological-born women shouldn't have an opinion on this matter.

Its a shame that so many transwomen have chosen to behave in this way. I remember being at uni where one or two transwomen belonged to the feminist group and just joined in with our general aims and gave their opinions when appropriate and especially with regards to trans issues.

Now, i haven't been able to attend a feminist discussion without it being dominated by a man telling me what my priorities should be. There is a degree of choice in how some transwomen have chosen to behave and in my opinion it is directly contrary to many of feminism's aims and therefore they have excluded themselves imo.

WasabiPeace Fri 20-Feb-15 13:24:16

Woman-only spaces, that should say.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:25:16

Pilchard, because there is no necessity to post a balancing opposite every time you want to talk about something? If someone posts in relationships about an argument with their OH, do you ask them why they haven't also posted about a time they made them happy?

The idea that not posting about something else as well somehow nullifies your points on one topic is bizarre. And intended to stifle debate on that topic. How about an opinion on the matter at hand instead? All welcome.

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