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Anti-Transgendered thread in Chat

(628 Posts)
countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 12:39:58

Started off as a vague question about what makes you feel like a woman, lots of people started mentioning transwomen, naturally. Has now turned into some posters stating that transwomen are just men and shouldn't be allowed use female things like toilets and rape crisis, pretty much anything.

I find this really offensive and have stopped engaging. My personal feminism encompasses women who were born in male bodies, and supports their struggle to be recognised as women. I also think they need the protection and help of feminists as a particularly at risk group.

Is this an unusual stance? Does anyone agree with me?

silverblur Fri 20-Feb-15 12:44:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 12:47:41

I'm not sure. I can't think of one. Certainly not a toilet. And I can't imagine why the need to turn away a rape victim from a service to help them because they were born with a penis and have had it turned into a vagina (or on the way to).

I'm not saying no to your question, just that it general I can't think of one.

WasabiPeace Fri 20-Feb-15 12:50:51

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 12:52:33

Ah come on, seriously? Men in dresses? We're talking transgendered, not transvestites.

I'd hoped for more, really. Thats just purposefully offensive, and beyond the pale. sad

seaoflove Fri 20-Feb-15 12:53:12

You'll find plenty of threads here in Feminism featuring identical POVs.

Not that I think it's a bad thing. I have a friend who is a transwoman and I've never before considered what made her, as someone who was born and raised male, really want to transition. Because how can one yearn to be female when one doesn't know what it is to be female (other than set dressing: you know, heels and wigs and frocks and make up)? I find it a very interesting question.

Fatstacks Fri 20-Feb-15 12:53:32

That's a bit shitty.
A feminist can protect any ones rights,

You know because we are equal and stuff...

MabelSideswipe Fri 20-Feb-15 12:54:05

But not all transformed have vaginas. Lots have a penis.

OddBoots Fri 20-Feb-15 12:54:55

Why do you think it is the role of feminists to protect transwomen? Why wouldn't you ask the mens rights activists to protect them by not abusing and raping them?

I have never met a feminist who feels hostility towards transwomen, they agree it is wrong that they are under the threat of men. That threat is added to the list or terrible oppressions that occur in the world. The argument is that it is not a battle that should naturally fall to feminists and it shouldn't automatically fall to women to yet again give way to the views of others and reduce their own status and rights in order to promote the rights of others.

Fatstacks Fri 20-Feb-15 12:55:30

I've got a boil on my arse it doesn't make me any less female.

Let people make the decision, if they identify as a woman and choose that then who the fuck are we to say otherwise?

MsMittens Fri 20-Feb-15 12:56:24

wasabi because if they identify themselves as a woman that is good enough for me. If it is simply about what body parts you have or were born with does a woman's status change after a hysterectomy or mastectomy?

countess I agree with you wholeheartedly.

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 12:57:58

I believe that you are gendered on the inside, and it's an individual's right to decide how they identify.
I also believe that if a woman was born with a penis, but feels more comfortable in the ladies toilet, that's fine. As long as everyone's respectful, gives each other the privacy that one generally expects in a toilet, what's the problem?
I work in a public building and we have (in addition to M and F toilets) non gendered toilets. I'd like to see these everywhere.

TywysogesGymraeg Fri 20-Feb-15 12:59:31

Transgendered people have not "become" the opposite sex. They have had surgery to make them look like the opposite sex.
I also don't understand what makes someone "know" they are a man inside . I was born a woman. I have no idea in what way other than physically I am different from a man.

Notrevealingmyidentity Fri 20-Feb-15 13:00:00

I'm sorry but I do believe there should be safe spaces for women who have been raped. Ie where there aren't men transitioning. I'm not so sure about men who have transitioned and become women.

Women who have been raped or have experienced DV should have that.

I think there should be spaces for trans women too even places that offer women and trans women but also a separate one for cis women.

BreacaBoudica Fri 20-Feb-15 13:00:17

Wasabi DFOD.

callamia Fri 20-Feb-15 13:02:01

I've got a flipside query. I have an old college friend who is now living as a man. It's clear that he has had hormone therapy, but I don't know (and it's none of my business) what his genitals look like. I still sort of consider him as I did - I'm not explaining this particularly well - more like I don't really think of him in the same way as I do other male friends from the same time. I know that he's had experiences that mean that he understands what it's like to be a woman.

I'm definitely not tying to say that he's 'not a real man', more that his experiences before living as a man make him different.

I hope that I'm not coming across as offensive or stupid, hopefully I am neither - I'm just trying to explore this a little bit.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:02:41

Personally I feel its the role of feminists to support and encompass all women, and I include transwomen in that population. My own personal feminism seeks to give extra support to vulnerable groups of women, but thats personal feeling.

I think I'm bothered most that women who identify as feminist can purposefully exclude a group of women because they are different. I'm not expecting anyone to start a march or a fund, but I do expect better than calling them "men in dresses" and trying to keep them out of any and all female spaces.

I have trans friends, and one relative. It's a harsh, hard life and I can't imagine wanting to make it harder.

WasabiPeace Fri 20-Feb-15 13:02:44

Right, I was being flippant. But it enrages me when Feminists are told they should be protecting the rights of every other group of people. Whether that's men, transpeople, animals or Martians.

Feminism is about women. We've got enough going on with that, thank you very much.

Ubik1 Fri 20-Feb-15 13:03:46

Well.. biology usually indicates make or female Fatstacks

Not everything is relative.

That said I believe in being respectful to people so if a he wanted me to call him 'she' and 'her' then I would do it. Most people would.

Also I find it confusing that someone would identify as a woman apart from biology. What does that mean? I am different to some female friends in my perspective on life but similar to my partner. What us female about me apart from my biology? Is it social conditioning? Is if more that transwomen want to be treated like some sort of construction of 'women'?

Weebirdie Fri 20-Feb-15 13:04:32

I wish some of the feminists misandrists here at MN would take a day off and stop making more out of threads than was ever intended.

MsMittens Fri 20-Feb-15 13:05:00

Notrevealingmyidentity does this not attribute the rape / DV to men as a gender as opposed to the individual who committed them? I would hate for a man who has been the victim of DV or sexual assault at the hands of a woman to attribute that to all women.

I don't understand how a trans gender woman would necessarily make a person feel unsafe just by virtue of having been or transition from being a man.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:05:44

notrevealing I don't disagree with you, its a fair point. I think we could encompass both under one umbrella. EG a rape crisis centre could have a separate group for transitioning people in need of the service, certainly. I can't imagine shutting the door in their face altogether, saying wrong chromosomes, fuck off, which is what some want.

CuddlesfromChickens Fri 20-Feb-15 13:07:25

The whole subject area is interesting and I'm not sure I've come to the end of my own thinking process on it yet.

However I would say that having used non gendered toilet faculties, I was instinctively very uncomfortable.

I would be quite happy for a transgendered woman to use the ladies with me though.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:07:34

>>>>Right, I was being flippant. But it enrages me when Feminists are told they should be protecting the rights of every other group of people. Whether that's men, transpeople, animals or Martians.

Feminism is about women. We've got enough going on with that, thank you very much<<<<

But we aren't asking you to support martians or dogs, we are asking you to support other WOMEN. They are just women a little different to you. Surely you can see its not the same thing?
And you weren't flippant, you were purposefully offensive.

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 13:07:47

Wasabi I cringe. You are the reason real feminist get labelled 'man haters'.

Notrevealing That's an interesting point about rape victims and DV victims, but in practice that sounds a bit like 'sorry you can't go in there in case you rape someone'. It just doesn't seem right.

CuddlesfromChickens Fri 20-Feb-15 13:09:12

And of course a rape crisis centre should be available to anyone who has been raped or sexually assaulted regardless of gender.

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 13:09:59

Countess which groups are you petitioning to support and protect trans men?

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 13:10:16

Ubik Biology indicates your sex, not your gender.

rinabean Fri 20-Feb-15 13:10:37

So transmen aren't included? They can be raped and get pregnant but they don't count amongst the rest of us who have that in common. They're paid less and have had worse education throughout their lives but they're not "part of your feminism" (what does that mean rofl)

If you say yes no of course I don't exclude transmen then you are a pathetic weak person who thinks feminism is for everyone who isn't a mega manly man with 5 penises. Ie you think "woman" is not a thing, "female" is not a thing, all it means is "absolutely anyone or anything that isn't a man, because that's what it means to be a woman: to not be a man". You are not a feminist if you cannot come up with a positive definition of being a woman. I am not a deformed or failed man, I do not have penis envy, I am not the thing men can use to further the male species, I am a woman, I am female, and feminism is for people like me

Of course, if you say yes they're not anything to do with feminism you're the typical straight woman who loves anything with a dick and hates lesbians or anything that reminds her of lesbians. But I was assuming you were just being ignorant and not malicious so I focused on you saying they should be included

EhricLovesTheBhrothers Fri 20-Feb-15 13:10:40

There's a very interesting thread going on here about trans women and feminism ' cis lesbians and trans women' iirc.
Trans activists and feminists are fellow travellers only in as much as they both want freedom from oppression based on appearance and gender and male violence. Other than that they are philosophically quite different.

Notrevealingmyidentity Fri 20-Feb-15 13:11:43

Ms

I'd have to say I don't know. I can't imagine how it must feel to have gone through that. I'd imagine some women may want a man free space other might only associate it with their abuser.

The only vaguely relevant experience I can add is I was once mugged in the street by a man. For a while I couldn't tolerate anyone walking behind me. After a bit it receded to only not being able to tolerate a man walking behind or near to me.
Eventually it faded to a man who looked like xyz or dressed in a similar way hen faded altogether.

countess
I would really we hope we an accommodate both. I think some centres do in fact.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:11:49

None, Pilchard, since I'm not petitioning anyone on any subject.
And since this is a feminist support topic, its not unusual that I'm focusing on women, is it?
I'm not sure of your point?

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 13:13:09

The issue with a rape crisis centre iirc was a trans woman wanting to work in one.

Many men are raped, children too, all should be supported in the best way possible. If only more funding was available.

ArcheryAnnie Fri 20-Feb-15 13:13:29

Personally I feel its the role of feminists to support and encompass all women

So do I.

and I include transwomen in that population.

I used to, but I don't now. The trans women I know live as women, and have rejected maleness, but also respect other women's boundaries. They don't feel entitled to women's energy or women's space, and don't deny either their male bodies (even when transitioned) or their male past. They describe themselves as trans women, not women, and don't see that acknowledging their male bodies, male past and male privilege takes anything away from their own lives. They - ironically enough - are often treated very badly by trans "allies" and other trans women.

My own personal feminism seeks to give extra support to vulnerable groups of women, but thats personal feeling.

Yes, so does mine. That's why I refuse to let women be moved to the back of every queue, and that's why I refuse to expect women to always and forever have to put other people's wellbeing and safety before their own.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:14:36

Rina you can call me a "pathetic weak person" if you like, it really doesn't bother me, but telling me what I think does bother me, especially when you have it so wrong.
How about you attempt a respectful conversation where we each decide what we think and share it, rather than be so rude?

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 13:15:26

Well trans men are at risk, as well as anyone else. Why are you only posting about trans women?

Notrevealingmyidentity Fri 20-Feb-15 13:16:19

hubert

I would hope it would be taken in the way that these women feel vulnerable regardless of anyone's intentions and need somewhere they feel safe.

OddBoots Fri 20-Feb-15 13:17:02

Of course there are many different beliefs within feminism but one of the more common and more important is that gender is a social construct that has been used to oppress women. Gender isn't biological sex, is is social and cultural and as such is is a suppression that needs to be removed.

From a trans perspective gender is the thing that is separate to their biological sex that makes them a woman (or a man) despite their biology.

To accept a transwoman entirely and unquestionably as a woman, even when that transwoman has a male biology is to accept gender as an acceptable construct.

Women are being asked to view the key to their oppression as something they should not only be okay with but that they should fight to preserve.

WasabiPeace Fri 20-Feb-15 13:17:14

On a personal level I have no problem with accepting transwomen as women.

On a political level I don't understand why Feminists are being constantly told that WE need to fight harder for the rights of transwomen than of born women.

Because when it comes down to it I don't accept that any amount of hormones or surgery will make you change your biological sex. Sorry and all that but that's my view.

Ubik1 Fri 20-Feb-15 13:17:40

Well yes - but your biological sex has implications fir your entire development and gender conditioning.

Born with a vagina? Well a whole host of biological process take place including hormones which shape the way you develop. In turn social conditioning also shapes you into a socialised 'woman' with all expectations therein.

I find the distinction between sex and gender is there but very hard to separate because the two are so tightly entwined from the very beginning of life.

So if someone is transgender - biologically they will have developed as 'male' with biological processes but will then 'feel female.'

'Feeling female' is the thing I have difficulty understanding. What is that?

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:17:45

Annie so why are you happy to put transwomen to the back of the queue? Why do you seek to put transwomen and born women in opposition to each other? And how does it negatively affect born women to also support transwomen?

You say the transwomen you have met all think one way. Surely you don't think ALL transwomen think this one way? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

MsMittens Fri 20-Feb-15 13:19:12

Notrevealing sorry to learn about your mugging experience, that must have been horrible.

I don't know either but as you and others say I would hate to deny anyone access to a rape/DV clinic if they needed it regardless of gender identification.

rina transmen have specifically identified themselves as women and have chosen to live as such - they have actively rejected being male. In saying I would not exclude them, I am saying I would not exclude anyone who positively identifies as being a women/female. That doesn't make me a pathetic weak person but ta for the insult.....

ArcheryAnnie Fri 20-Feb-15 13:19:19

Many men are raped, children too, all should be supported in the best way possible. If only more funding was available.

All this is true, but the current rape crisis and DV shelters were set up, in circumstances of very great difficulty, by women - often working class women with little access to money or influence, and very often lesbians. If men and trans women want shelters which accept men and/or trans women, why don't they put the work in to make that happen?

(And anyway, a substantial number of women's shelters do accept trans women, thus making the space inaccessible for women whose trauma means that space which has people with penises in it is not a place of refuge. yet again, women come last.)

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:19:59

Ah come on Wasabi, you're not being fair
>>>>On a political level I don't understand why Feminists are being constantly told that WE need to fight harder for the rights of transwomen than of born women. <<<<

Who is constantly telling you this? And who said fight harder for transwomen than born women? Nobody here. Nobody ever, I think. Just asking for a tiny share in the space. No need to exaggerate so to have a sensible discussion.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:22:12

Annie, so what about transwomen without penises, post surgery? Where do they come in to it? Can they access female spaces?

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 13:22:19

OddBoots Well said.

I'm surprised at the posters who 'can't understand' how anyone can 'suddenly decide' to be a different gender. Just because it's a feeling, emotion, or journey you've never experienced, doesn't mean it isn't valid or doesn't exist. I hate that 'I'm OK so screw you jack' mentality.

If you have grown up identifying 'correctly' with what our society has decided are the emotions, likes, and attributes of your sex, you are very lucky. If how you feel inside bears absolutely no resemblance to how you're told you should be feeling... well that's what it is!

I love this quote from All About My Mother:

"Well, as I was saying, it costs a lot to be authentic, ma'am. And one can't be stingy with these things because you are more authentic the more you resemble what you've dreamed of being."

WasabiPeace Fri 20-Feb-15 13:23:55

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

You are fighting for transwomen to share woman-only over the objections of the born women who use them.

THAT is fighting harder for the rights of transwomen than women.

ethelb Fri 20-Feb-15 13:24:15

OP I used to feel like you and then went to a couple of feminist conferences/goups in the past year. Almost all debates were dominated by men in skirts (I really didn't want to see them in that way, but it was the way they were behaving) telling biological-born women that they were wrong to not prioritise what these men in skirts wanted. And what did they want? To tell women that they had to a) include them b) how they were going to include them and c) that biological-born women shouldn't have an opinion on this matter.

Its a shame that so many transwomen have chosen to behave in this way. I remember being at uni where one or two transwomen belonged to the feminist group and just joined in with our general aims and gave their opinions when appropriate and especially with regards to trans issues.

Now, i haven't been able to attend a feminist discussion without it being dominated by a man telling me what my priorities should be. There is a degree of choice in how some transwomen have chosen to behave and in my opinion it is directly contrary to many of feminism's aims and therefore they have excluded themselves imo.

WasabiPeace Fri 20-Feb-15 13:24:16

Woman-only spaces, that should say.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:25:16

Pilchard, because there is no necessity to post a balancing opposite every time you want to talk about something? If someone posts in relationships about an argument with their OH, do you ask them why they haven't also posted about a time they made them happy?

The idea that not posting about something else as well somehow nullifies your points on one topic is bizarre. And intended to stifle debate on that topic. How about an opinion on the matter at hand instead? All welcome.

MoreCrackThanHarlem Fri 20-Feb-15 13:26:14

I don't want to see anyone 'at the back of the queue'.

However, transgender women believe that gender is a feeling which comes from the inside. A state of mind. I absolutely refute this and believe with every fibre of my being that sex is a biological fact. Everything else is social/environmental. I would defend the rights of any person to live their life in the way they choose, but not at the expense of women. For example, I do not want to see scholarships or jobs designated exclusively for women to be awarded to men. Particularly in fields where women are already under represented.
This is where my problem with transgender lies.

Do you believe transgender women should be placed in women's prisons? Research the Sylvia Rivera Law Project and their client, Synthia China Blast.

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 13:27:44

Wasabi I agree that we should never count womens' feelings as less valid than another set of womens' feelings... but the problem is that trans women are also women.

Are we not all on the same team? I mean come on trans women have endured pain and hardship and possibly painful surgery just so they can join us on our team! Would you consider them second class because they didn't have the privilege of being born on our team? They had to choose and fight for it. I think that deserves massive respect and a huge welcome party.

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 13:28:56

"For example, I do not want to see scholarships or jobs designated exclusively for women to be awarded to men. Particularly in fields where women are already under represented."

But transgendered women are women, so that job has gone to a woman therefore fulfilling your request.

Not hard is it?

ArcheryAnnie Fri 20-Feb-15 13:29:17

You say the transwomen you have met all think one way.

No, I said the trans women I know feel like this. That's one of the things which enable us to be friends. I generally don't become good friends with people of any sort who don't respect women's boundaries.

And how does it negatively affect born women to also support transwomen?

Because when spaces, opportunities, energy that has been carved out for women - often at great personal cost and energy of the women that made that happen - are usurped by people who have previously spent their lives being treated by the world as men, with all the privilege that entails, it means that space, those opportunities, that energy is no longer available for women. See, for example, what is happening in women-only colleges. And I do not want to share a room in a DV shelter or a jail or anywhere else with a stranger who has a penis.

And it means that women are being told off for just talking about stuff which they experience, and which they only recently have found the space to discuss at all. See, for example, the women who are talking (incredibly bravely) in public about FGM, only to be told by trans women that they are "cissexist" for referring to it as female genital mutilation, because some women don't have clitorises or vulvas or whatever. I think if your immediate response to someone talking about FGM is to tell them off instead of offering them solidarity or sympathy, they you are a despicable human being. Likewise when women talk about their vaginas, and are told they are transphobic as some women don't have vaginas, so they shouldn't talk about them as female things.

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 13:30:04

Our team? Wtf?

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:31:08

I don't agree wasabi, at all, but you're entitled to your opinion. I don't believe most women would object to a transwoman using the same bathroom, for example. So I believe I am suggesting transwomen can use said bathroom against the minority of born women who want to stop them.

Think about it practically. You're in a toilet. A transwoman comes in, goes to use the stall, do you ask her to leave? Or do you want a sign on the door saying "no transwomen"?

Its nothing more than a thought exercise, really, is it?

Ethelb, I'm sorry that has been your experience. It's not one I've had. I can see how it could change your thinking.

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 13:32:17

Our team= women.
Sorry thought that was self expressed, should have been clearer.

ArcheryAnnie Fri 20-Feb-15 13:32:33

Would you consider them second class because they didn't have the privilege of being born on our team?

We're the ones in Second Class. We weren't born with privilege at all. They were born in First Class, with privilege, and want us to treat them as if we were the ones oppressing them. We aren't.

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 13:34:05

"Think about it practically. You're in a toilet. A transwoman comes in, goes to use the stall, do you ask her to leave? Or do you want a sign on the door saying "no transwomen"?"

This has undoubtedly happened to us all, you prob haven't noticed because not all trans women are 6ft 2 with beards.
Consider that at any point, you have certainly shared a bathroom with a trans women? Did you notice? Did you mind? Probably not.

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 13:34:19

Being a woman isn't being part of a "team". That is utterly bizarre.

Ubik1 Fri 20-Feb-15 13:34:50

I wouldn't challenge a transwoman using the ladies toilet. I can understand that she may feel uncomfortable in the men's toilet.

In the women's changing room however I would be happy unless there were private stalls.

But I'm a prude my German friends tell me smile

bigkidsdidit Fri 20-Feb-15 13:34:59

Hubert, do you think transwomen should compete against born women in the 100m?

cailindana Fri 20-Feb-15 13:35:20

Countess there is a vocal minority of transwomen who want to prevent born women from even discussing things like menstruation, pregnancy, menopause etc because it is "transphobic" to discuss these "women's issues" when transwomen don't experience these things.

Essentially, as I see it, this vocal minority want to appropriate the meaning of the word "woman" and define for themselves what it means, based only around their own experiences and completely ignoring the experiences of women who do have biological female characteristics.

I will not be erased. I am a woman and that means something and I won't have a person who was born as a man and who grew up with male privilege tell me my experiences are meaningless.

MoreCrackThanHarlem Fri 20-Feb-15 13:36:35

I mean come on trans women have endured pain and hardship and possibly painful surgery just so they can join us on our team!
Being a woman is not a 'team' you can join.
There lies the root of the problem...removal of a body part does not make you a woman. After a mastectomy am I no longer female?

And when I wrote about scholarships/jobs/education reserved for women, I meant actual biological women. The odds are stacked against us enough without this shit.

bigkidsdidit Fri 20-Feb-15 13:37:14

In terms of work - transwomen were born with male privilege. Maybe they went to all boys schools and were pushed towards eg engineering. Got into exclusive uni courses with 95% male students. Then transition age 30 and compete for scholarships against women who had none of those options?

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 13:37:20

As for this:

"If you have grown up identifying 'correctly' with what our society has decided are the emotions, likes, and attributes of your sex, you are very lucky. If how you feel inside bears absolutely no resemblance to how you're told you should be feeling... well that's what it is!"

So all the women and girls all over the world (deemed female as when they were born someone said" it's a girl"), who don't harbour a feeling inside that they want to be a man, are therefore choosing the place that they are given in their society, and in fact are happily doing so.

Well that's good news. We don't need feminism. Women and girls (who haven't expressed a desire to be transformed into men) are obviously entirely happy with the situation and role for females in their society wherever that might be.

Great news smile

ArcheryAnnie Fri 20-Feb-15 13:37:42

Think about it practically. You're in a toilet. A transwoman comes in, goes to use the stall, do you ask her to leave? Or do you want a sign on the door saying "no transwomen"?

Think about it practically. You are in a gym changing room full of women, disrobing or coming out of the shower or whatever. There is a person there with a penis on view. Do think, countess, that this is OK?

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 13:37:46

Archery
I'm not a fan of pitching men against women, but to carry on the analogy, they've made the decision that representing how they feel on the outside to match how they feel on the inside is more important to them than the status and privilege you get by being male. That can be seen as a huge sacrifice.

Anyone who will give that up to join us (especially if they want to fight for women's rights alongside us), well I think they deserve total acceptance.

I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean when you say they want us to treat them like we're the ones oppressing them.

MoreCrackThanHarlem Fri 20-Feb-15 13:38:32

Prisons, Countess?
Internal examinations on rape victims?
Where do you draw your line?

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:38:37

I find it really hard to understand how anyone could think transwomen are privileged at all. A suicide rate of 25 times the general population suggests otherwise, as does the massive prejudice they face in every aspect of life. I also find it hard how anyone can justify adding to this prejudice personally.

Many points have been made about penises in female spaces, so I'll ask again how post-surgery transwomen are different, if they are?
If the penis is the issue, are they welcome when they are without them?

Weebirdie Fri 20-Feb-15 13:39:34

Hubert, nothing Wasabi said had anything to do with my reference to misandrists.

There are many interesting women on this forum but unfortunately we also have others who are anything but feminists and who, quite frankly, are a huge turn off to women like myself who do want to learn and understand things they maybe didn't get first time around so to speak.

AvonCallingBarksdale Fri 20-Feb-15 13:39:57

I work at rape crisis - you have to be born a woman to work there and we only see women who were born female.

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 13:40:12

"For example, I do not want to see scholarships or jobs designated exclusively for women to be awarded to men. Particularly in fields where women are already under represented."

But transgendered women are women, so that job has gone to a woman therefore fulfilling your request."

Right so say you have a concern about women and girls into stem. Is that concern then to be alleviated if transwomen are prominent in those areas? Or not? In your opinion.

WasabiPeace Fri 20-Feb-15 13:40:26

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ArcheryAnnie Fri 20-Feb-15 13:40:30

You first, countess. Something like 80% of trans women never have SRS. Is a penis on display in a women's changing room OK?

cailindana Fri 20-Feb-15 13:41:10

Hubert, it's not a matter of acceptance.

A very very vocal minority of the trans world wants to entirely redefine what women can say and do. They do not accept us.

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 13:41:33

Pilchard Not what I meant and you know it.
Ideally we could do away with gender constraints, but they do exist and we all deal with that the way we see fit. Some people are 100% comfortable within their gender constraints because it suits them, and that's OK for them.
Some people will fight against it and carve it out how they want. That's good and fine because it works for them.
Some people are so far removed that the only way they will be happy is to identify with the gender that doesn't represent their sex That's OK, as it works for THEM.

I think that's a better way of saying it? Hope so anyway.

SantasLittleMonkeyButler Fri 20-Feb-15 13:42:20

God, it's so depressing to see educated women questioning why transgendered people "choose" to become the opposite gender. They don't. They were born with the wrong set of genitals.

They don't just wake up feeling a bit female & decide to pop a dress and a pair of court shoes on.

I know two transgender people - one male to female & one female to male. Both have had surgery to make the outside match the inside. For the posters who don't understand how someone born with a penis can know that they are truly female - can you imagine having to live the rest of your life as a man? Would you be happy with that?

MoreCrackThanHarlem Fri 20-Feb-15 13:42:31

How does removal of the penis make somebody a woman? Because they feel like a woman? What does that mean? Which woman do they feel like?

It's like the Emperor's New Clothes.

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 13:42:49

"A very very vocal minority of the trans world wants to entirely redefine what women can say and do. They do not accept us."

cailindana I am not aware of this but would be interested in finding out a bit more.

cailindana Fri 20-Feb-15 13:44:19

Countess there are transwomen out there who do literally nothing else except wear women's clothes - no surgery, no hormones. And yet they expect women to accept them fully into all female spaces.

Fuck that.

At least 85,000 women are raped in the UK every year. Many many more are sexually assaulted. 2 women a week are killed by men. Men are a threat to women. Women need safe spaces. Men don't get to walk all over that because they feel like it.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:44:19

Archery and Crack, I said at the start that I don't know, and I'm more than willing to learn and expand my thinking on this issue. I'm by no means pretending I have all the answers, merely stating my starting point of acceptance.

Prisons, I really don't know. I'd have to defer to people with far more knowledge.
The gym, well, I very much doubt you'd see a penis, the experience of transwomen that I know of suggests that they would avoid such an environment altogether. Its not something you flaunt if only for fear of your own safety. But you didn't answer my question about the bathroom. I'll think about your counter question while you answer that? that seems fair?

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 13:44:55

I think that I would only feel comfortable talking about experiences to do with being a girl, with other people who grew up as girls. I would feel happy to have transmen in that discussion (whether they would want to be there or not is another question!).

I read a piece online written by a young transman who identified as a feminist and spoke very eloquently about what it is like growing up as a girl.

I really think that these experiences of growing up can't be erased. Girls and boys are raised differently and socialised differently. In some countries the difference can mean extreme damage for the females. We can't pretend this stuff doesn't happen, or how can we act to help with it.

ArcheryAnnie Fri 20-Feb-15 13:44:57

can you imagine having to live the rest of your life as a man? Would you be happy with that?

My god, yes. My material situation would be substantially improved, and since I have neither a ladybrain nor a man's brain, just a brain, my insides would continue to match my outsides.

Seriouslyffs Fri 20-Feb-15 13:46:58

Wasabi your original comment about dresses made me gasp and
quite upset by it.
Do you really believe that someone was born a boy, underwent hormone therapy and surgery and now lives and identifies as a woman shouldn't be able to access rape support?

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 13:47:57

"Hubert, do you think transwomen should compete against born women in the 100m?"

Bigkid This is really interesting and has really made me think. I don't think I have a definitive answer. I don't know enough about sport nor am I transgendered myself so... I don't know. I'll be thinking about this for a while.

MoreCrackThanHarlem Fri 20-Feb-15 13:47:59

I personally do not have an issue sharing a bathroom with a man.
I have never been raped or abused by a man though. I suspect I would feel differently if I had.
Did you read up on Synthia China Blast? And Laverne Cox's public support of her move to a women's prison?

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 13:48:06

Hubert I don't know what you mean I'm only responding to what you write.

If being female is to do with being on a "team" then millions of women and girls the world over would like to get off the team thanks.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:48:12

>>>>
I'm sure that this isn't even an issue for the overwhelming majority of transwomen anyway, who are just trying to go about their lives and don't make a huge song and wah wah dance about being allowed in.<<<<

Good point. I'm equally sure that accepting transwomen isn't an issue for the majority of born women who are just going about their lives and don't make a huge song and wah wah dance about not letting in the transgendered.

Hopefully it gets even more like that and we can all shut up about it on both sides!

ethelb Fri 20-Feb-15 13:49:56

Countessmarkybitch they were born biologically male and thus were born with priviledge that is rarely acknowledged. That is the problem.

The refusal to acknowledge that many transwomen often grew up priviledged in a way that seems to lead some of them to feel that they can tell women what to do, and think, in order to make the lives of other people better, with no apparent hint of irony negates much of the empathy I once had.

Also, why are the problems of trans people a feminist issue? Why not an LGBT issue? A lot of violence against transpeople is homophobic/queerphobic motivated violence surely? Or do you think it is 100% misogynism?

cailindana Fri 20-Feb-15 13:50:36

How can we say that women have been oppressed for the entirety of recorded history purely because they are women and then wake up one day and say, Oh but actually woman doesn't really mean anything, anyone can be a woman?
How does that even make sense?

ArcheryAnnie Fri 20-Feb-15 13:51:00

The gym, well, I very much doubt you'd see a penis

I've seen posts by trans women on twitter - people who have platforms, long follower lists, get invited on panels, etc - boast about showing their penis in women's changing rooms.

I've been at conferences which have women's loos, men's loos and large amounts of gender-neutral loos - and even when the women's loos were more physically difficult to get to and out of the way, I saw trans women use them in preference to the gender-neutral loos. If you walk past loos in which you are very conspicuously welcome and safe, to get to the more inconvenient loos where you think you may not be welcome, that has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with establishing your right to that space, whatever other women think or want.

Have I shared a loo with a trans woman? Almost certainly. Do I want more gender-neutral single stalls available for everyone? Yes. Do I think trans women should be encouraged to use women-only loos? No.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:52:37

>>>>>I personally do not have an issue sharing a bathroom with a man.
I have never been raped or abused by a man though. I suspect I would feel differently if I had.<<<<

I have. I wouldn't be comfortable going into a mens bathroom, but I don't have any problem with a transwoman coming into mine, penis or no penis. I accept others can feel differently.

It's not a simple issue. I probably over-reacted on the first thread (not uncommon if you feel people are being offensive about someone you are close to). I think its something worth exploring though.

ArcheryAnnie Fri 20-Feb-15 13:52:52

Seriouslyffs if trans-accessible shelters and rape crisis services are needed, why don't trans people put the work into setting them up, instead of taking over what women have worked to create?

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 13:54:06

Pilchard I guess I was using the word 'team' in a similar way that my gran would use 'sisterhood'.

I sort of think I could have used a better term because team implies we're pitching against each other, and I don't want everything to be boiled down to 'Men vs Women'.

ethelb I believe trans issues are a feminist issue because feminism is about equality and fair treatment for all humans, and they are human. LGBT issues are also feminist issues. I understand that not everyone feels that way and I think that's a shame.

ethelb Fri 20-Feb-15 13:54:33

@archeryAnnie or why not men? Transwomen used to me men afterall. Why don't they protect men after transition?

cailindana Fri 20-Feb-15 13:54:44

Ethel from personal experience (through my DH who had the misfortune of supervising a student doing research on the topic) there is a definite sense that there is a strong core in the trans community of born men who grew up seeing women around them who weren't "perfect" enough, and thought "I can be better," so became women and fell to the earth with a bump when they found how badly women are treated.

But instead of saying "this is awful, women are treated like shit!" they just said "actually women are doing it wrong, this is how women should be" and just seek to redefine entirely what "woman" means, erasing entirely born women's experiences so that transwomen have the last say on what being female is all about. It is misogyny at its ugliest, a complete erasure of women.

PilchardPrincess Fri 20-Feb-15 13:56:48

The reason that I mentioned transmen upthread is because I find it strange that there is so much talk of transwomen and how women and feminists and lesbians must do x, y and z but where is the equivalent talk around transmen? There is very little. I am sure there are reasons for that.

FWIW in my day to day life I call people by what they want to be called and have no problem personally sharing facilities etc.

However I do have an enormous problem with a lot of the more extreme ideological stances from some trans activists as those stances if accepted have massive consequences for women and girls everywhere. I simply cannot agree with ideas like, there is no such thing as biological sex only gender, that there are male/female brains, that anyone who isn't trans is cis and therefore perfectly happy with the role ascribed to them etc. A lot of this goes against really fundamental tenets of my feminist beliefs and obfuscates the fact of female oppression.

cailindana Fri 20-Feb-15 13:57:06

There are a fair few stories (which I'll look for) of born men becoming transwomen, seeing how shit it is to actually be a woman, and transitioning back.

cailindana Fri 20-Feb-15 13:58:20

For some reason I can't copy and paste, the text box won't let me right click, I'm not sure why

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