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Anti-Transgendered thread in Chat

(628 Posts)
countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 12:39:58

Started off as a vague question about what makes you feel like a woman, lots of people started mentioning transwomen, naturally. Has now turned into some posters stating that transwomen are just men and shouldn't be allowed use female things like toilets and rape crisis, pretty much anything.

I find this really offensive and have stopped engaging. My personal feminism encompasses women who were born in male bodies, and supports their struggle to be recognised as women. I also think they need the protection and help of feminists as a particularly at risk group.

Is this an unusual stance? Does anyone agree with me?

silverblur Fri 20-Feb-15 12:44:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 12:47:41

I'm not sure. I can't think of one. Certainly not a toilet. And I can't imagine why the need to turn away a rape victim from a service to help them because they were born with a penis and have had it turned into a vagina (or on the way to).

I'm not saying no to your question, just that it general I can't think of one.

WasabiPeace Fri 20-Feb-15 12:50:51

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 12:52:33

Ah come on, seriously? Men in dresses? We're talking transgendered, not transvestites.

I'd hoped for more, really. Thats just purposefully offensive, and beyond the pale. sad

seaoflove Fri 20-Feb-15 12:53:12

You'll find plenty of threads here in Feminism featuring identical POVs.

Not that I think it's a bad thing. I have a friend who is a transwoman and I've never before considered what made her, as someone who was born and raised male, really want to transition. Because how can one yearn to be female when one doesn't know what it is to be female (other than set dressing: you know, heels and wigs and frocks and make up)? I find it a very interesting question.

Fatstacks Fri 20-Feb-15 12:53:32

That's a bit shitty.
A feminist can protect any ones rights,

You know because we are equal and stuff...

MabelSideswipe Fri 20-Feb-15 12:54:05

But not all transformed have vaginas. Lots have a penis.

OddBoots Fri 20-Feb-15 12:54:55

Why do you think it is the role of feminists to protect transwomen? Why wouldn't you ask the mens rights activists to protect them by not abusing and raping them?

I have never met a feminist who feels hostility towards transwomen, they agree it is wrong that they are under the threat of men. That threat is added to the list or terrible oppressions that occur in the world. The argument is that it is not a battle that should naturally fall to feminists and it shouldn't automatically fall to women to yet again give way to the views of others and reduce their own status and rights in order to promote the rights of others.

Fatstacks Fri 20-Feb-15 12:55:30

I've got a boil on my arse it doesn't make me any less female.

Let people make the decision, if they identify as a woman and choose that then who the fuck are we to say otherwise?

MsMittens Fri 20-Feb-15 12:56:24

wasabi because if they identify themselves as a woman that is good enough for me. If it is simply about what body parts you have or were born with does a woman's status change after a hysterectomy or mastectomy?

countess I agree with you wholeheartedly.

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 12:57:58

I believe that you are gendered on the inside, and it's an individual's right to decide how they identify.
I also believe that if a woman was born with a penis, but feels more comfortable in the ladies toilet, that's fine. As long as everyone's respectful, gives each other the privacy that one generally expects in a toilet, what's the problem?
I work in a public building and we have (in addition to M and F toilets) non gendered toilets. I'd like to see these everywhere.

TywysogesGymraeg Fri 20-Feb-15 12:59:31

Transgendered people have not "become" the opposite sex. They have had surgery to make them look like the opposite sex.
I also don't understand what makes someone "know" they are a man inside . I was born a woman. I have no idea in what way other than physically I am different from a man.

Notrevealingmyidentity Fri 20-Feb-15 13:00:00

I'm sorry but I do believe there should be safe spaces for women who have been raped. Ie where there aren't men transitioning. I'm not so sure about men who have transitioned and become women.

Women who have been raped or have experienced DV should have that.

I think there should be spaces for trans women too even places that offer women and trans women but also a separate one for cis women.

BreacaBoudica Fri 20-Feb-15 13:00:17

Wasabi DFOD.

callamia Fri 20-Feb-15 13:02:01

I've got a flipside query. I have an old college friend who is now living as a man. It's clear that he has had hormone therapy, but I don't know (and it's none of my business) what his genitals look like. I still sort of consider him as I did - I'm not explaining this particularly well - more like I don't really think of him in the same way as I do other male friends from the same time. I know that he's had experiences that mean that he understands what it's like to be a woman.

I'm definitely not tying to say that he's 'not a real man', more that his experiences before living as a man make him different.

I hope that I'm not coming across as offensive or stupid, hopefully I am neither - I'm just trying to explore this a little bit.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:02:41

Personally I feel its the role of feminists to support and encompass all women, and I include transwomen in that population. My own personal feminism seeks to give extra support to vulnerable groups of women, but thats personal feeling.

I think I'm bothered most that women who identify as feminist can purposefully exclude a group of women because they are different. I'm not expecting anyone to start a march or a fund, but I do expect better than calling them "men in dresses" and trying to keep them out of any and all female spaces.

I have trans friends, and one relative. It's a harsh, hard life and I can't imagine wanting to make it harder.

WasabiPeace Fri 20-Feb-15 13:02:44

Right, I was being flippant. But it enrages me when Feminists are told they should be protecting the rights of every other group of people. Whether that's men, transpeople, animals or Martians.

Feminism is about women. We've got enough going on with that, thank you very much.

Ubik1 Fri 20-Feb-15 13:03:46

Well.. biology usually indicates make or female Fatstacks

Not everything is relative.

That said I believe in being respectful to people so if a he wanted me to call him 'she' and 'her' then I would do it. Most people would.

Also I find it confusing that someone would identify as a woman apart from biology. What does that mean? I am different to some female friends in my perspective on life but similar to my partner. What us female about me apart from my biology? Is it social conditioning? Is if more that transwomen want to be treated like some sort of construction of 'women'?

Weebirdie Fri 20-Feb-15 13:04:32

I wish some of the feminists misandrists here at MN would take a day off and stop making more out of threads than was ever intended.

MsMittens Fri 20-Feb-15 13:05:00

Notrevealingmyidentity does this not attribute the rape / DV to men as a gender as opposed to the individual who committed them? I would hate for a man who has been the victim of DV or sexual assault at the hands of a woman to attribute that to all women.

I don't understand how a trans gender woman would necessarily make a person feel unsafe just by virtue of having been or transition from being a man.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:05:44

notrevealing I don't disagree with you, its a fair point. I think we could encompass both under one umbrella. EG a rape crisis centre could have a separate group for transitioning people in need of the service, certainly. I can't imagine shutting the door in their face altogether, saying wrong chromosomes, fuck off, which is what some want.

CuddlesfromChickens Fri 20-Feb-15 13:07:25

The whole subject area is interesting and I'm not sure I've come to the end of my own thinking process on it yet.

However I would say that having used non gendered toilet faculties, I was instinctively very uncomfortable.

I would be quite happy for a transgendered woman to use the ladies with me though.

countessmarkyabitch Fri 20-Feb-15 13:07:34

>>>>Right, I was being flippant. But it enrages me when Feminists are told they should be protecting the rights of every other group of people. Whether that's men, transpeople, animals or Martians.

Feminism is about women. We've got enough going on with that, thank you very much<<<<

But we aren't asking you to support martians or dogs, we are asking you to support other WOMEN. They are just women a little different to you. Surely you can see its not the same thing?
And you weren't flippant, you were purposefully offensive.

HubertCumberdale Fri 20-Feb-15 13:07:47

Wasabi I cringe. You are the reason real feminist get labelled 'man haters'.

Notrevealing That's an interesting point about rape victims and DV victims, but in practice that sounds a bit like 'sorry you can't go in there in case you rape someone'. It just doesn't seem right.

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