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Men in Feminism (and their lack thereof)

(67 Posts)
chris71 Sun 14-Jun-15 17:59:14

My wife and I being very expressive feminists always wonder why there are not as many men who are feminists. Though we know a lot of guys who are but we believe the lack of them is because they perceive it as a threat to their male self. Not being able to convince a lot of males to be a part of the movement, like most feminists, we work on 'empowering' women instead of persuading men to participate.
What steps do you think can be taken to have more participation by the male species?

cadno Wed 17-Jun-15 13:49:09

Hi Chris

What leads you to think this lack of engagement is due to men feeling a threat to their 'male self'. I only put that into quote marks, as I don't know what you mean be the phrase.

Look forward to hearing from you. Cadno.

chris71 Wed 17-Jun-15 16:04:11

Hey Cadno, in our experience, we have found out that most men internally feel that supporting anything against patriarchy will have a bad effect on them. And no one wants to give away control. Hence the thought. Please feel free to add your own thoughts to this smile

ShipShapeAhoy Wed 24-Jun-15 20:28:48

I think some men (and women) think either that feminists want men to be treated as second class citizens, or they deny there is a need for feminism in the first place, or both.

I think the word 'feminism' actually puts some men off as it's a female centred word and that's why you hear "I'm not a feminist, I believe in equality/I am a humanitarian. " In the past I felt more sympathetic to that view, but I gave it some thought and did some reading and thought well, feminism is a movement created for and by women to fight against male oppression, so why on earth should the name be changed to be more inclusive of men? (I'm not asking just explaining my thought process).

There seems to be a lot of misinformation about what feminism stands for too and sometimes this is being spread intentionally.

Disregarder Thu 20-Aug-15 12:22:33

I'm not a feminist because I see no need for it now that we have equality. Yes there are still some people continuing to push the debunked idea that we don't, but it's quite easy to spot them and they are generally people with their own agenda trying to cause arguments where there don't need to be any, and they are best ignored.

BreakingDad77 Thu 20-Aug-15 17:21:09

"I'm not a feminist, I believe in equality/I am a humanitarian. "

I used to think that, we have the equality act etc whats the problem, especially as I work in a male dominated workplace, they dont want to get there hands dirty etc I would think.

Then after maturing, dating, reading enough of everydaysexism, peoples responses to ched evans, and reading lots of shitty treatment of women in the workplace. Dont get me wrong men suffer too with hazings and initiations but who instigates these - men.

IrenetheQuaint Thu 20-Aug-15 17:29:32

Yes, feminism does require men to give up male privilege, which obviously is not appealing to many men. However, it also seeks to knock down ridiculous gender stereotypes which damage both sexes.

I'm sure there are lots of men who are beginning to understand why feminism is necessary from the injustices all around us and the increasing number of people (of both sexes) who draw attention to them.

Plus, the more sexism becomes socially unacceptable, the more men will try (or at least make a vague effort) not to be sexist.

YonicScrewdriver Fri 21-Aug-15 08:34:08

I'm surprised that you've registered on MN to post solely in the feminist section then, dis.

If you believe we already have equality (a) you are wrong and (b) feminism doesn't need you as an ally. Not sure why you are here being unpleasant, particularly on the thread where you are defending someone talking about punching women to the ground.

"generally people with their own agenda trying to cause arguments where there don't need to be any, and they are best ignored."

Mmm hmm. Good description.

HouseMouseQueen Sat 22-Aug-15 23:24:48

The reason why there's hardly any men in feminism is because it challenges their power. This is why you constantly see backlash movements, like the current 'men's rights' movement whereby the only goal they have is to 'Fk their Sh up.' I'm serious. That's the logo. These men want women back into the 1950's. I get rape and death threats constantly for exposing the fact that these online groups target and harm women. I can't tell you how many emails I get from women who are trying to leave an MRA and they have kids.

It's one of the reasons I started an account on mumsnet. So I could help women navigate the online and offline world of misogyny.

Men are scared of losing their violent control over women. In fact in 2013 there was a global research effort to statistically see how many women suffer from male violence. The numbers are shocking.

womenlogic Fri 04-Sep-15 14:51:12

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WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 Fri 04-Sep-15 14:57:24

Lol @ "submissive lady men" what a turn off phrase!

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 Fri 04-Sep-15 14:57:53

Turn of phrase that should be

Obviously.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett Fri 04-Sep-15 15:01:36

Sorry women you lost me at Princess Diana being a role model...

A role model for what, exactly? I mean, she broke up her marriage, got the children, got the money, never had to do a day's work again... isn't that what you're against?

womenlogic Fri 04-Sep-15 15:06:11

Thanks for your response Lonny. I should have stated it clearer.
I meant role model in terms of how she used her social status and wealth, to actively get out there, in the real world, and help everyone she could. There may be better role models than Her Royal Highness, Princess Diana, but whoever, will surely be more adequate than Beyonces half naked butt twerking but not doing anything.

AllThePrettySeahorses Fri 04-Sep-15 15:09:42

Oh, I dunno ... Diana spearheaded campaigns against landmines, was revolutionary in changing attitudes towards people with HIV/AIDS and probably some other things.

However:
How many women rape men?
Out of the many men (still far fewer than women) who have been victims of DV, are there any figures as to how many suffered because of their father or other older male in the household?
How does feminism teach women "to stay a victim and be inferior for the rest of their life" when it has also resulted in "Women have equal pay, social status, votes, own property etc?"

am I feeding the T word?

MephistophelesApprentice Fri 04-Sep-15 15:09:42

I support the existence of feminism as the dictionary definition is an inarguable necessity.

Adopting the label would put me next to people who's beliefs I do not share and they might actually think I support them, or others would.

It's like the thread the other day where someone wanted signatures on a petition to prevent a public awareness campaign singling men out in domestic violence awareness. I didn't sign the petition as it was an irrelevant complaint. I couldn't sit on the 'no bench' as all the scars on my face and my negative psychological reactions were created by women. Beyond my personal issues, my education in psychology and sociology has led me to points of disagreement with feminist motivations, even though I pursue the same objectives.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett Fri 04-Sep-15 15:44:40

Given the deletion All, mibbie?

womenlogic2 Fri 04-Sep-15 16:01:26

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MephistophelesApprentice Fri 04-Sep-15 16:04:31

Womenlogic(2)

The ideology is relevant. Examples of bad practice should be specifically targetted, or you're sinking to 'their' level by claiming collective responsibility.

If NAMALT is true, so is NAFALT and actions should be undertaken accordingly.

womenlogic2 Fri 04-Sep-15 16:06:14

NAMALT behavior is targeted and dealt with (like my post), NAFALT behavior gets away with it.

MephistophelesApprentice Fri 04-Sep-15 16:17:13

Yes, but this is where the opportunity arises to take the moral high ground. The belief in collective responsibility has lead to hideous crimes throughout history and that is one criticism that can be levelled at the ideology - but to consider feminists to have collective responsibility is retributive justice. This is the excuse that some feminists have used to justify the closure of male domestic/sexual violence shelters and support the Duluth model of domestic abuse and it cannot be regarded as morally right.

The only way to demonstrate the moral inferiority of such behaviour is to model good behaviour - to address specific feminists who you regard as poisoning gender issues and target their specific actions for condemnation. Otherwise 'feminists - don't hate' becomes little better than 'men - don't rape'. You know how that makes you feel - imagine it the other way.

The way to win the argument is with greater empathy - eventually, I promise you, even those who feel the most hatred can be shamed by a surfeit of acceptance and tolerance.

MephistophelesApprentice Fri 04-Sep-15 16:18:32

I promise you, even those who feel the most hatred can be shamed by a surfeit of acceptance and tolerance.

In civilised society, that is. Don't try it with ISIS.

YonicScrewdriver Fri 04-Sep-15 16:34:23

"This is the excuse that some feminists have used to justify the closure of male domestic/sexual violence shelters "

Was it feminists who got them closed, Meph? That's surprising.

Chriscloyd Fri 18-Sep-15 01:08:07

I got a male feminist for a teacher and we fight all the time. Mostly because of this essay I wrote on Robert Jensen about masculinity.

VestalVirgin Sat 07-Nov-15 20:04:38

The lack of men in feminism is because men don't want to give up male privilege.

I don't think that can be changed. It's simple selfishness. If you have a method to cure selfishness, I'd be interested in how it works.

What I am certain will not work is trying to make feminism more appealing to males. That will only destroy feminism.

Let's be real here; men know in which ways they are harmed by patriarchy. They know that the violence done to men is overwhelmingly done BY men.
Those men who do don't want to abolish patriarchy just decided that having all the privilege is better than the safety from violence that they could achieve by siding with feminism.

Men are more likely to be raped than to be falsely accused of rape. Now, ask yourself, what are most men more worried about?

Zanymummy Wed 13-Dec-17 14:42:23

Part of the problem with a lack of men within feminism is perception. We all hear about male privilege but the privilege lies with that privileged minority bunch of males in upper management who make the decisions that affect us such as lower pay in some industries and lip service to family friendly hours etc, and the spineless M.P's who empower them.
Lets challenge the perception get our partners on board with feminism as we all know what hurts us hurts the family unit.
Of course even among the ordinary men their are the old dinosaurs who need to get a grip. i'm just speaking from experience in my old job where we were all treated the same ie badly regardless of gender.

Vegeetas Thu 22-Feb-18 17:07:06

Feminism would be a lot more palatable for male folk in general (not me I hasten to add, I think you rock) if it wasn't being screamed by women with green hair who hate men. They are the vocal minority but they are so loud they drown out never reasonable point anyone else has.

KnittyNatter Sun 25-Feb-18 01:33:48

Lolz, sorry we do not conform to your norms of how girlies should behave.

Vegeetas Tue 27-Feb-18 06:45:34

Pretty sure that isn't what I said but ok 😉

donquixotedelamancha Wed 23-May-18 22:27:47

What steps do you think can be taken to have more participation by the male species?

Do women want men in Feminism? Even on issues like self-ID, which have broad reaching consequences, you constantly see posters saying they don't want to hear male voices because it gets in the way of women being able to discuss amongst themselves.

While this remains the case, men should perhaps be concentrating on their own, separate campaigns.

Personally it make me a bit sad- many of my reasons for specifically supporting feminist ideas (as opposed to generalised equal rights) are my two young girls.- but perhaps that's the way it needs to be.

Vicky1990 Sun 27-May-18 22:04:42

Get rid of the term feminist as this is associated with some very nasty anti men attitude by some women.
Most men I know are very supportive of equility, but it does work both ways.
There are lots of ways that men are disadvantaged and discriminated against, but you never hear mentioned.

ABJ1 Mon 28-May-18 18:51:32

Long time lurker of other topics just in case I'm accused of signing up just to post in the feminism sub section... wink

Why aren't there any men?

....as a man you firmly believes in equality, because no space is made for men, widespread use of the word 'mansplaining' and 'white male privilege' have been used to shut me down on numerous occasions. If we are to make the world better for both genders, we need a discussion, a social contract between the genders, because it is not just women who suffer because of the patriarchy as defined. It's just my feeling but my take is that some discussions on gender feel zero sum, as in taking power from men rather than how we make thing better for both parties... Little paternity pay, working long hours, little chance of promotion to the top of the ladder because there are old men sitting in positions of power, isn't the patriarchy great. confused I'd much rather have greater flexibility and more time with my future children...

Leading on from that I someone on here makes an interesting point on class/ the intersection of age. I believe there are a lot of powerful men out there, white, white hair but their time is almost over. Women & girls are demonstrating higher attainment at university and school, and more women than apply to go to university, the change is coming.

There is also so much noise out there on the subject of gender that its not always the most sensible viewpoints on both sides that are heard. In trying to understand the issues I have done quite a bit of reading, its so easy to find comments such as the 'cismale is the enemy' to reinforce the opposition between men and women, or twitter feeds such as everydayfeminism that in some (not all) cases are the most trivial acts which are experienced by both genders on a regular basis and ignore the real issues while at the same time making the movement look infantile. Of course, some bad apple's don't tar a whole movement/gender right...

Personally I haven't got to grasp with what feminisms end goal is? There appear to be contradictions and ambiguities. Maybe a trivial example but I know ardent feminists who still expect men to act out their traditional male gender roles. In which case isn't that just a power grab for privileged positions held by men within the patriarchy rather than true equality? Why should I support feminism in that sense just so that alpha females can get on the board of a FTSE 100 company or that a female BBC presenter can earn £750K rather than £500K, that is not the reality for most people, help me get greater paternity leave, greater support for mental health and we all benefit.

Just read that back and apologies if it jumps around; as a married man to a wonderful wife and brother to an equally wonderful sister who finds sexism abhorrent I am a little tired of feeling under attack as a result of acts of other men. Last thing to say is that if I have children if I could choose I would choose to have a girl... that shouldn't be the case.

AssassinatedBeauty Wed 30-May-18 20:01:19

"I am a little tired of feeling under attack as a result of acts of other men."

Yeah... so are women.

Anyway, why don't you concentrate on what you personally can do to be a useful ally to feminism. So I'm sure you are actively lobbying for greater paternity leave and pay, and looking to work somewhere that offers a better deal. Similarly regarding long working hours and flexitime.

FYI, "everyday feminism" is not representative of feminism, so don't take it seriously. It's eaten itself with its "woke" nonsense.

ABJ1 Wed 30-May-18 20:55:36

The last thing we need is a contest on who’s the biggest victim...

I was answering the question posed by the OP how I choose to spend my efforts outside of that is not of consequence

AssassinatedBeauty Wed 30-May-18 21:15:54

Good job that's not what I was suggesting.

So keen to fight sexism for your potential future daughters, that you won't even discuss what you personally might do. Ok then.

ABJ1 Wed 30-May-18 21:45:50

Why do you feel the need to make this about me and deflect from real issues? Seems rather typical - if we can’t have an adult conversation kind of sums up the issue

CardsforKittens Thu 31-May-18 20:59:07

I'm not sure I want more men in feminism. Most of them don't know enough to be useful and it's generally a waste of time engaging with them. So I'm happy enough for my feminist activism to be women-only, although I'm prepared to welcome men who have done the research and who stay relatively quiet.

ABJ1 Thu 31-May-18 21:23:25

So what your saying is men should know their place.. oh the irony

Vicky1990 Thu 31-May-18 21:35:07

A good place to go to find out why men may not engage with feminist views is woman's hour on radio 4.
Listen to the two feminist presenters and the open hostility towards men men that they spout, if that is what feminism is all about then no man would want to support it.

Missingstreetlife Wed 06-Jun-18 21:02:21

Feminism just means believing in equality for women. It will benefit everyone.
How can ppl think these royal women are feminist, holding up institutions of privilege and knowing their place? Yes even royal women can have difficult relationships but still have it easy.
Some of them do 'good works' but please be aware Diana left not one penny, that's not one penny, to her causes and charities. All left in trust so her kids can avoid tax. The young royals wear their hearts on their sleeves and drum up business for Samaritans and mental health groups. All good, but they too have not put a hand in their pocket.

internetprawn Wed 20-Jun-18 04:10:02

An acquaintance of mine, who calls himself a 'feminist', rocks up at a 'womens' book group and starts making lots of noise on behalf of his transgendered friends (who are not there), starts 'debating' (or maybe that should read baiting?) issues with the assembled gang of bright-eyed predominately white, lower-middle class student feminists who've come to talk about this frikkin' work of fiction they all loved, and boom, no book club no more: the young women involved were too scared the TRA's would rock up and chaos would ensue and they didn't have the stones to deal with a gang of aggressive, older, white men threatening to bash them for being cis-terf-scum. And I don't blame them. It was a book group. For women. Derailed by an allegedly 'woke' 50 year old man who was supposedly an 'ally'.

Cheers, 'Bro'.

So, no. I don't want men in feminism. Let men do their own, manly thing. On their own. Far, far away from the women, and when they're really 'woke up' to what's going down, then they need to come back and have a cup of tea with the women and realise that the problems both groups suffer with and from and under are the result of long-standing structural and systemic inequalities created by a minority elite who have long since morphed into respectability but who intentionally seek to maintain those inequalities so they can maintain their own elevated statuses, and the wheel keeps spinning because the engine of commerce need it to.

If all men were created equal, so too would baked beans. There would be no need for fifteen brands of baked beans and six different price points. All baked beans would taste more or less the same, and cost more or less the same. But, Asda Smart-Price tinned baked beans and Marks and Spencer's 'luxury' 'fresh' baked beans in a plastic pot with a fancy label will never co-exist in the same pan, my friends. This is a truth. Both are haricot beans in a tomato based sauce, of course, but if your Mum had two pans of beans, and one was Smartprice and the other was M&S, you'd still feel cheated if your Mum gave your brother the M&S beans and you know it. You'd be giving him the side-eye as he scarfed those beans, and you know he'd be laughing at you as he watched you try to swallow those inferior beanios while luxury bean juice dripped down his own overly-entitled chin.

the average woman's enemy isn't the average man, and the average man's enemy isn't the average woman. Our shared enemy is inequality, is lack of opportunity, is discrimination based on social class and the name of the beast who devours our children is capitalism.

you had unions, lads. To organise within, to fight for your rights, to provide you with educational options, but nah, politics wasn't cool. Instead you faux-collectivized with your football scarves, pretending this gaggle of blind men was a 'team', that football meant something, but you've been priced out of the football, and now you watch it in the pub instead.

And then the lads start noticing that there's all these others, blacks, gays, women, and they all have more rights than you 'highly prized' white men. So you run off to the right, to make noise and reclaim your birth-right, as men, but gee, the people on the right are not your friends either, lads. You noticed, yeah? They'll just use you for scut-work too. It's your defined role in society, lads, but your land is shrinking under your feet.

Average guys are bummed now they realise they're not really needed. Now they feel like nobody wants them, that nobody respects their ability to shovel shit and die in a trench now we've got machines for all that low-brow stuff. Soon we won't need soldiers or white van man, we wont need 'blokes' to drop off the new washing machine. We won't need taxi drivers, or lorry drivers, or well, poor white men in general, really. No wonder the poor blighters feel like they've got no voice, no place beyond selling drugs to escape the shitty sink estate, the army, or slumming it in Povvo-land and they feel cheated.

And rightfully so, lads. You have been cheated. White working class lads are at the bottom of the pile when it comes to educational attainment, social mobility, but they come top of the class when it comes to suicide. These lads were bred to be cannon fodder and do the donkey work, and well, sorry, but we have no use for that kind of man now, so abortion for all! Finally! Hurrah!

Thankfully, the guys are waking up. They've finally realised they're being shafted too, by the same system that kept women 'in their place' for centuries, and these men have started asking for 'more'. More freedom, more choice, more equality and equity and that isn't a bad thing, however clumsy and misogynistic their collectivizing sometimes appears: they too, like women, need to find their feet in this brave new world we're all creating.

just like how feminism went through it's 'men are cunts, let's cut off their cocks' phase, maybe men's rights need to go through their 'let's rape them in the fanny' stage before their discourse becomes more politically nuanced?

Of course, NAMALT.

More guys are accepting their responsibilities, they want to be good dads, they want to be good husbands, they want to be decent colleagues and friends and lovers, but they too, like women, are still shackled to these 'notions' we have about what men and women are, how they differ, and what that looks like. Lads have been left in limbo as the lies they were encouraged to believe fall away, but feminism isn't where they'll find succour.

Men don't need feminism. Men need their own version, a masculism, where their rights and health and reproductive and employment and other issues are considered from a purely male vantage point. Oh, but we have that already: and we call it... the patriarchy. But the patriarchy doesn't look after you either lads, does it? Not if you're a white working class lad it doesn't. All they bred YOU for was factory work and the army, and you're no longer relevant in today's society.

But, shucks. Instead of giving these poor fellas a break, we malign them and their toxic masculinity. We talk about their 'white male privileges' and 'rape culture', but most of these pasty faced kids don't have privilege, they just get the blame...

time to start organizing, dudes. marching. waving banners. that sort of thing.

Ereshkigal Sun 24-Jun-18 10:18:01

What a massive entitled prick internetprawn. angry

thebewilderness Tue 10-Jul-18 04:37:45

Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women.
It is the only political movement that is expected to serve everyone.
We know why.

Dottierichardson Wed 11-Jul-18 17:35:22

InternetPrawn white working-class boys do indeed fare badly in school, but doesn't make them the bottom of the heap. After school white working-class boys do better in work than their Asian Muslim and black counterparts.

www.gov.uk/government/news/asian-muslims-and-black-people-do-better-in-school-worse-in-work

Dottierichardson Wed 11-Jul-18 17:36:29

InternetPrawn wonder why that might be? O I know institutional and social racism perhaps?

Dottierichardson Wed 11-Jul-18 17:37:43

Internet Prawn and guess which group of Asian Muslims fare worst? Girls.

CocoFlannel9 Fri 20-Jul-18 14:38:38

I can easily understand why most blokes turn their backs on feminism.

As other posters have mentioned, the average guy does not represent either the small % of white males who dominate at the top, nor the equally small % at the bottom who commit VAWG, and they don't want to be lumped into a pigeonhole and be lectures about the above.. As the recent thread on here demonstrated, most posters who drone on about two women a week being killed by men don't even realise that 84 men a week commit suicide and that many feminists have successfully campaigned against events intended to address this issue - like feminists successfully getting IMD cancelled at York University.

I also think that some elements of the toxic masculinity argument can be perceived as an attack on general 'maleness'. I know plenty of men who are competitive, 'masculine', etc by nature and who wouldn't want to redefine themselves to the feminist notion of 'what a man should be'.

Derwini123 Thu 23-Aug-18 17:40:10

@HouseMousQueen Your view on the Men's Rights movement is very worrying. It's purpose isn't to throw women back to the 50's. It's purpose is to help men with suicide issues and fight against the overwhelmingly large disparity between men and women in divorce settlements. Women twice more likely to get the kids in a divorce and men are three times more likely to succeed in committing suicide. I suggest you read up on the group's origin and purpose before making up your own view about them.

Derwini123 Thu 23-Aug-18 17:45:28

@chris71 The reason a lot of men do not opt into the feminism movement is because it is not relevant to them. Women already have equality and have done since the feminist movement of the suffragettes and so on. Right now feminists spout dishonest statements about a gender pay gap and manipulated statistics about domestic abuse. A lot of people see the new feminist movement for what it really is, a nasty movement seeped in misandry/man hating ideals. This is why in the UK less than HALF of women describe themselves as feminists and men even less so. If you believe in equality of the sexes that's fine but what feminism has become these days is much more malicious.

AngelsAckiz Wed 19-Sep-18 13:43:58

My DP is as fierce as I am but he is firmly in the ally position. He supports me, helps me and makes his space feminist.
He doesn't feel he has the right to speak on behalf of me.
He's there in the background, always learning. Reading blogs, watching YouTube videos like Magdalen Verbs, Peachy Yogurt, Posie Parker.

He engages men but he doesn't talk on female threads.

lilacloublue Mon 24-Sep-18 12:56:37

If what we see in the media is anything to go by. The minute a man comes out publicly as a feminist you can start the countdown on how long it will be until he’s revealed as a sexual predator!

Shutitdown1 Sat 09-Mar-19 03:12:51

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MhairiV Fri 15-Mar-19 23:49:12

I see men taking feminist positions all the time on social media and what happens? Other men shout them down and try to mock and discredit their intentions, framing it as a sly attempt to ingratiate themselves with women because they want sex. Pretty effective shut down too, especially for heterosexual men.

Ultimately men will always care more about what fellow men think than what women think in a social hierarchy sense.

ARDuke Mon 15-Apr-19 15:03:46

I think a lot feminists can be quite aggressive in how they put their point across, and it puts people off. What do you want men to do to be more involved in feminism specifically OP?

AssassinatedBeauty Mon 15-Apr-19 15:12:42

Oh bless you. Of course you do.

Can you not think of any at all that you could do to support feminism?

JurgenKloppsCat Mon 15-Apr-19 16:33:59

Feminism doesn't need men, and by and large they aren't really wanted or welcomed. I don't think feminism will be massively hampered if we just let women get on with it.

Nyushka1 Sat 11-May-19 04:30:19

Ultimately men will always care more about what fellow men think than what women think in a social hierarchy sense.

It's ignorance and hypocrisy like this that more men are not involved. Statements like that above made by someone truly caring about both sexes... Not.

Feminism is dead. Unfortunately it has taken a sinister, hypocitic and utterly victim soaked turn for the worse over the last two decades or so.

Instead of focusing on working together as a society its become a battle between men and women where women are encouraged to view men as the enemy. Unfortunately this will only lead to the reverse of what those people are aiming for, in which disparity between the sexes will grow not fade.

The main reason this has happened is that there has been a large increase of women taking up the cause who, often through no fault of their own are just downright dumb. They shout about this and that without any actual in depth understanding of what they are actually hoping to achieve. Equality, equality, they shout. But they don't understand what equality is.

They don't understand the difference between equality of outcome and equality of opportunity, and unfortunately much of what they preach falls under the former, which will only lead down a catastrophic path in the times ahead.

They don't understand fully the differences between men and men and women and why we both need each other if we are to prosper on any level of society.

Is so sad when I see women on this warpath where they see masculinity as something of a bad thing, yet they are puzzled as to why at the same time, a book depicting a woman being completely sexualy dominated by a man would be the fastest selling book in the history of the planet and the hotest topic amongst women worldwide. Rebelling against things just makes them come back with a vengance. Trying to crush male dominance has manifested itself with woman craving that dominance that they desire. That's self evident.

If you're going to fight for feminism and try to revive it at least have some understanding of what you're fighting for. It's not a battle against men.

We do not live in a patriarchal misogynist society, only a bitter under-achieving woman would asert this. Women today are not victims and are cabable to do with their life what they please.

Even when we weren't, it wasn't men holding us back. Things like the pill, tampons, and dishwashers have all helped us progress.

With the disgusting turn that feminism has taken I can't for the life of me understand why any man would step near such a cancer unless under duress. The fact that there are now male counter groups should be a danger sign that it's going in the wrong direction.

Just for those who spout off figures as some justification for their man hating: it's men who are most likely to be on the receiving end of male violence. Its men who have the highest suicide rates, men who are mostly incarcerated, men who are mostly homeless, men who mostly die in war, men who under acheive at school, men who suffer most violence in general, men who are murdered most often, men who suffer more mental health problems.

Both sexes suffer in different areas. Dtop all the victim nonesence it makes me sick to be viewed as so pitiful.

What the dumb women make the mistake of doing is confusing male achievement and male competence with male dominance and tyranny. They are very different. The difference being that male achievement and competence is attractive and good for women.

Be less dumb and think about what your fighting for even use some brain cells and research it. Let's bring feminism out of this dispicaple evil ditch it's lost in. Fighting for equality of outcome is just sexism in a different form, but sends us back not forward.

Volvo240 Thu 06-Jun-19 16:26:11

I think they are afraid

Trebe Sun 23-Jun-19 18:45:42

I haven't read the entire thread but to the OP, as a man, feminism isn't only unwelcoming to some men it is genuinely hostile. Also there is a double standard.

The easiest way I can put this across is in the term mainsplaining. I'm using this example because it has become such a flippant term.

Can you imagine what you would think if I told a woman, after she has just said her piece, that she needs to stop womoaning and get on with it.

People use the term all the time when they don't like what's being said because it's being said by a man.

There are much deeper reasons I believe why there are not more men involved with feminism. I'd have to go down a list of reasons why a lot of feminism is actually misandry, but my opinion on that on here wouldn't go down well. Why do you think that would be?

Trebe Sun 23-Jun-19 18:48:59

Also what type of feminism? The newest type has some disgusting elements to it. 60's feminists who helped massively with getting women off of the natural reproductive cycle, I'm all for and I think more feminists should be campaigning for this in developing and mainly religious countries.

Trebe Sun 23-Jun-19 19:02:04

I've just read some of the answers on this thread and if you can't see that some of your answers and reasoning as to why men don't support feminism more is somewhat down to your answers.

Believe it or not most men don't even know what 'male privilege' is, so giving it up isn't a problem. The problem is, 'we' don't have anything to give up.

Most men can't relate to feminism because you're not talking a language they understand, also as I have found out myself, when they try to understand the language you are using and why then they get shouted down.

If you're not willing to discuss ideas you find offensive; in my experience on here; a lot of you aren't. Then don't be surprised if people don't understand what your issues are and why.

I expressed an idea on here that didn't go down well and maybe some of that is on me. However some people then started shouting rape statistics at me as if I condone rape? It was a strange and hostile experience.

As someone who did some feminist activism when I was younger, I can definitely say that it isn't the same as it used to be in my experience.

It's the same as what I think about right being in power at the moment, I don't think the right is winning, I think the left is losing. I think the same about feminism.

DaveSmith1100 Mon 24-Jun-19 10:07:33

I believe in equality and so do a lot of men but that's not what feminism is anymore. It's all about hating men and inventing things such privilege to make men fell bad about themselves

Childrenofthestones Tue 02-Jul-19 08:34:11

"Men in feminism and the lack thereof"

Perhaps you would do better starting with the question "women in feminism and the lack thereof"

Perhaps fact that less than 10% of women in the UK self identify as feminists could help explain why so few men do.

Danny8558 Sun 21-Jul-19 18:09:05

Having grown up in the 60s as the first wave of feminism began I feel my reluctance to get involved was down to respect for what women were trying to do for themselves. Many of my contemporaries feel the same way. We don’t all see it as an attack on our privilege but as a necessity for women to have their own space by right.

NinaMimi Thu 01-Aug-19 23:54:29

I think there are many reasons. I think some don't know how to get involved or what to do. If there's a feminist meeting they might think men aren't wanted there. Or if they do go they'll feel uncomfortable.

I also think there are issues and conflicts in feminism. People regularly say feminism is just about equality but then with rad feminism it's more a critique of the whole system rather than saying we need 50/50 male and female soldiers, CEOs etc.

Unfortunately I don't have a good experience with male feminists. Especially ones who like to shout about it. I think it's part of their image. They often are most concerned with issues like porn and prositution, which serve their interests, and not so interested in 'boring' issues.

It's difficult as I think more men would be good as if we want society to change it has to involve everyone, but also when men start to get involved they can end up dominating the group.

Alislia17 Fri 02-Aug-19 04:02:46

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

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