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Argh FFS - crisis team judgement

(186 Posts)

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elementofsurprise Tue 22-Mar-16 14:28:48

Trying not to completely lose it here. Just had ridiculous conversation with woman from the crisis team. She asked what would help, usual script, I said I thought therapy. Had to explain TWICE that primary care IAPT won't see me ('too complex') and secondary care repeated ignore referrals and have asked my GP not to re-refer because I'll only be disappointed.
For 5.5 years I have been trying to access therapy. Since I broke down. I was almost there once, but services kept getting cut and rearranged.
Explained this to her.
Her response was "Well, if you're not willing to try to access the services..."
Explained again, I keep goingto my GP, he keeps referring, they won't see me.
Response: "If you're just going to get annoyed with me..."
FFS! Am I not entitled to sound just a tad frustrated in this situation?
Managed to remain calm and explained yet again, for 5.5 years I have tried to get therapy so am feeling a bit hopeless now. Understandably, I'd have thought. Apparently I should just keep going back to the GP (even though it makes me feel worse and more hopeless cos GP can't do anything.)
Pointed out definition of madness was doing the same thing gain and again but expecting different results.
Feel hopeless and worthless. Want pain to end. Want to be good enough to be treated nicely and loved. (I thought I was but apparently not from how people treat me. Don't want another thread about that though.)

FrozenPonds Tue 22-Mar-16 14:34:22

Was she in a position to make a referral? If so, I'd have let her try and not mentioned any of your past experiences.

It will have sounded as though you were putting barriers up and being antagonistic.

It's usually better to play the game, and at least let them try. What would there have been to lose?

elementofsurprise Tue 22-Mar-16 15:39:39

No, she wasn't able to make a referral - apprently the GP is the only way.

It will have sounded as though you were putting barriers up and being antagonistic.

WTF? Why would it? It's clearly not me putting the barriers up if I'm repeatedly going to the GP/getting referred and ts the CMHT who are ignoring it! I'm gobsmacked you could say that! Why blame ME for them fucking up?

God this is shit. So exlaining why I feel so hopeless, and spelling out how I keep attempting to get help but can't, means I'm doing something wrong?

elementofsurprise Tue 22-Mar-16 15:48:08

I'm really upset by this. Feel like I'm from another planet where people are vaguely logical and don't blame those already struggling for things they can't help, and the reasons they're struggling.
If someone is losing hope because they can't get the help they need, in what way is that their fault? How is it 'antagonistic for them to point that out, desperately hoping someone can suggest a way around it?
If someone was rattling at a door handle, saying "oh no, it's locked", would you suggest they keep rattling at it for hours/days/weeks in the hope it suddenly unlocked? Or would you suggest trying something different?
Why am I expected to keep banging my head against a brick wall with services, and not point out nothings changing?

WhatDat Tue 22-Mar-16 15:59:30

Her response was "Well, if you're not willing to try to access the services..."

It sounds like the crisis team member felt you were not helping yourself. I'm not saying that is true. I think you've been a bit antagonistic towards FrozenPonds

I know you have been struggling for a while element but not everyone is against you. I hope you manage to access some help thanks

AgonyBeetle Tue 22-Mar-16 16:05:40

Reading your posts, it does come across as if you're so convinced that nothing can change, that it is perhaps in danger of becoming a self-fulfilling prediction?

'The Services' are not necessarily a monolithic entity that will always give the same answer - all services are a collection of individual people, with personnel that may change at different points, and have different reactions at various times. The person who gave you a 'no' may not be in post any more, or there may be new policies or new staff.

Clearly the person from the crisis team, who has at least some familiarity with the services on offer, thinks you would meet the criteria. Could she write a letter on your behalf to the gp, or can the GP advocate for you?

Tbh it does come across as if you're so convinced that they won't help you, that you don't try to access the help that may be on offer, even if it isn't perfect. Having received a 'no' once doesn't mean that there may not be help available, and ways of accessing it.

Marchate Tue 22-Mar-16 16:18:41

I don't think Frozen meant that exactly

You have certainly been messed around by the system. Sometimes it's like the roundabout stops for everyone else, but when it's your turn it speeds up so you can't jump on. Is that how you feel?

I think Frozen means you have to keep to the point, yes sir, no sir, three bags full, to get past the first hurdle. They are often only takers of phone calls. They have no idea what happened before, and don't actually care. So you 'win' by anticipating this and stating only what you need now

I don't know why you haven't been helped before. Is your GP easy to talk to? Some don't have much interest in MH issues

Look after yourself x

elementofsurprise Wed 23-Mar-16 01:04:44

agony Having received a 'no' once doesn't mean that there may not be help available, and ways of accessing it.

It's not 'once' though, it's repeatedly over 5 and a half years! I don't just mean two or three times either - it's been several times even within the last year. And I saw my GP last week who referred me yet again! (I explained this to her)

What I'd like to know is what do I do about them keeping ignoring or rejecting the referrals? Telling me I'm doing something wrong or not trying when I keep on trying to get help isn't very nice or helpful. After five and a half years it's hardly me randomly and unreasonably thinking they won't help! Why am I expected to believe against the odds they'll help me this time? Bizarre.

I just thought she might have some tips or something to convince them to help.

Tbh it does come across as if you're so convinced that they won't help you, that you don't try to access the help that may be on offer, even if it isn't perfect.

There isn't any help on offer though. It's primary care or CMHT, that is it. Primary care say I need CMHT, CMHT say no. What help do you think i'm not accessing?

WhatDat I think you've been a bit antagonistic towards FrozenPonds

I dont see how. I explained in my OP clearly enough, and I seem to be expected to be calm and patient even when struggling immensely with my mental health and facing someone who isn't listening to what I've said. Why was the crisis team woman not taking in that I'd been referred many times but they won't help. Why am I not allowed to be sceptical or worried or frightened about that? Can you really not see how awful it is to be trying for years to get help and having all the referrals ignored, and then to be treated like I'm the one doing something wrong? Why am I expected to be all calm and not point out it's not working? If someone gave me a key and it didnt work, it would be stupid to keep trying it, much better to let them know it doesn't work then they may have a new suggestion!
I'm baffled and confused and upset that people expect me to just be fine and pootle off to get referred yet again when that's not working! And to put up with their frustrating insistence thats what I should do, despite having done it 20-30 times with no luck. Feel like i'm from another planet where people listen and are rational and kind.

Costacoffeeplease Wed 23-Mar-16 06:24:58

I've seen a lot of your threads element and you're obviously struggling and having a difficult time - but they all go the same way, and you do often get quite nasty with people who are trying to help or be sympathetic. I'm afraid I don't think posting on mumsnet is helping you very much

Haudyerwheesht Wed 23-Mar-16 06:37:57

What a pp said. I seem to remember previous similar threads and they all go the same way. No suggestions anyone makes on anything will be acceptable to you. I really think maybe that right now you should try not to be so single minded in what you want to happen and accept what other people (who are trying to help) tell you. Also try and see how the way you speak / reply to people will had an effect on how they perceive you and how willing they are to help - right or wrong it is just a fact of life I'm afraid.

I hope you get help soon OP: mental ill health is an absolute bastard and I agree averaging the right Care is a frustrating process at times.

Nicesunnytuesday Wed 23-Mar-16 06:39:04

Your situation sounds horrible and soul destroying. I can see why you feel the way you do and it seems clear that you are trying to access help even though you don't believe, through past experience, that it will be offered (as you say you have been referred again by your GP just last week).
You have probably explored this already, but I wonder if there are any self referral therapy centres in your area? Where I live there is one where you pay on a sliding scale according to what you can afford, the lowest contribution being £5 per session.
Sorry you are going through this thanks

wannabestressfree Wed 23-Mar-16 06:41:53

Am with Costa...

kittybiscuits Wed 23-Mar-16 06:44:26

Hi OP. Have you actually got as far as having an assessment with secondary care? It doesn't sound like it. Your GP needs to make a referral citing the multiple referrals already made and that the must assess your needs or it will be raised as a formal incident. You can also involve your local PALS. And by the way, I don't know your posting history, but on this occasion it was the Crisis Team person and not you!

dangerrabbit Wed 23-Mar-16 06:49:07

OP I don't know your financial situation so may not be an option but do you live in a city? Is there anywhere near you that trains psychotherapists as the BACP and UKCP require therapists to have a minimum number of hours in order to qualify. You may like to consider getting long term (up to 2 years) low-cost counselling through this route and you can refer yourself so they don't need to know about your thresholds. I do sympathise because my friend was sectioned and while she was in hospital they still didn't offer her any therapy(!) luckily she managed to make a recovery despite their "help".

Mrscaindingle Wed 23-Mar-16 07:07:48

Why do the CMHT keep ignoring the referrals though? Have you had an assessment by them and if not why not if the GP keeps referring you? If they're not even seeing you then they must think it's not an appropriate referral for them. You need to have a conversation with your GP about why this might be happening and either get them to insist on an assessment or look at alternatives.
As a pp poster said you may be able to get some talking therapy privately paying a nominal fee depending on what you can afford.
Without knowing what's in your GP referrals it's impossible to say why you are not getting seen, maybe the CMHT are not appropriate for what you need, it's hard to know without getting all the details but it really is your GP you need to advocate for you here.
Good luck flowers

willowcatkin111 Wed 23-Mar-16 08:29:13

Alright just typed a long understanding post and the thing froze sad
Cannot remember it all but I do understand the pain of not being listened to, understood, or treated like a human, of getting your hopes up yet again that somehow this time will be different only to have them dashed once more. It just gets too much to bear after a while - you have done brilliantly to keep trying for that long.

willowcatkin111 Wed 23-Mar-16 08:29:54

That was aarrgghh not alright!

HopelesslydevotedtoGu Wed 23-Mar-16 08:33:56

I used to work in a cmht and saw this situation a few times, where patients were too complex for iapt and not serious enough for secondary care psychology.

Both services were very overworked and Trying to concentrate their services where they could make the most difference, but this left some patients in the middle.

In my experience, if a patient was too complex for iapt, secondary care psychology would accept them, although sometimes after some cajoling. Secondary care psychology were accessed via the cmht, which was via the gp.

What did the cmht and secondary care psychology say when you were referred before?

I would focus your energy on a cmht referral, or accessing therapy via a charity/ privately, as tbh if iapt say you are too complex for them you probably want to be seen by someone else.


elementofsurprise Wed 23-Mar-16 11:11:00

Costa There's difference between someone being nasty and someone who's frustrated. I know typing isn't the best medium to tell, due to lacking facial expressions etc., but isn't the context everything?

If it were you, trying to access care, and you'd been repeatedly referred for 5.5 years, and someone insisted all you needed to do was get referred again, wouldn't you be a tad frustrated? Wouldn't you point out to them that you'd already been referred 20 times so it didn't seem to be working, ask them if they have any suggestions? And feel hurt and frightened if they insisted it was you doing something wrong?

I really do not understand why my totally legitimate concerns are being treated as meaningless. It's gaslighting. In any other context, people would be saying "Gosh yes, that seems like a dead end, try something different" or at least would understand my frustration and despair. Yet in this context, people seem to have a rigid refusal to accept what is actually happening, preferring to stick with their idea of what ought to happen - and then treating the person/people involved as if their imagined idea of reality is the true one. It is bizarre, and quite scary from where I'm standing.

Haudyerwheesht No suggestions anyone makes on anything will be acceptable to you
If people are going to suggest stuff I've already tried, and already explained hasn't worked, it's not me doing anything wrong - its them weirdly refusing to read or take in my OP or understand the position I'm in. Why blame it on me?
Again, in any other context, if someone said "I've already tried X,Y and Z", would others say "Oh, try X, Y and Z!" and think that was helpful/expect the person to be grateful?
Even if I really am in a dead end position, why take it out on me? Why not at least be kind and sympathise?

Costacoffeeplease Wed 23-Mar-16 11:16:56

I haven't seen anyone 'taking it out on you' although that may be how you perceive it

You have told us many times that there doesn't seem to be any help for you - people then try to help only to be told they don't understand/that isn't possible/won't work - what do you want from these threads? We can't make help appear - which is why I don't think mumsnet is helping you

elementofsurprise Wed 23-Mar-16 11:56:17

Sorry, Haudyerwheesht, just caught the end of your post. The understanding that im in a shitty position is actually really helpful - when you're at the end, just someone 'getting it' makes all the difference.
I don't see how I'm being single minded btw - there are only two ways to get help (round here) and that is the CMHT or the primary care services. I have tried both. What is single minded about that? There seems to be general agreement I need therapy but no-one willing to do it!

Kitty Your GP needs to make a referral citing the multiple referrals already made and that the must assess your needs or it will be raised as a formal incident

That's interesting - I didn't know that was a thing! My GP just kept saying there was nothing he could do but refer me. I've recently seen a different one though so maybe he can do this. He said I was "stuck in a terrible system" so I get the impression he understands!

nicesunnytuesday and dangerrabbit I was seeeing a private psychotherapeutic counsellor for about 18 months. It got a bit weird towards the end and then she suddenly stopped seeing me and wrote to my GP saying I needed more help and should be referred to MH services (she'd already been in touch with him, concerned saying I needed support). She didn't believe they wouldn't help me. It was quite hard to deal with, felt like a right fuck up. She was part of an organisation of therapists working together, where they assess you at the beginning and match you to a therapist, so I thought I could trust them, and they had reduced fees as on benefits. I don't know where I'd find a trustworthy one that I could afford now, all the rest seem to be single and so I don't know if they are getting proper supervision etc, and Im scared i'm too messed up and they expect me to hve support from srvices that I don't have. I was the only one who was unemployed etc at the previous place - they see professionals normally, I am a weirdo fuckup to them. Sorry, feel awful. Its all coming flooding back. Sorry. Im so upset I kept trying with therapy even when I should have had suspicions about her (she stopped remembering things I'd said, seemed to confuse me with other people, kept constantly misunderstanding etc. )

Mrscaindingle The last time I was assessed by CMHT was summer 2014. It was weird. I had two assessment meeetings - the first they were talking as if it was a done deal that they wouldn't accept me, they even said they wouldn't as I didn't meet the criteria for services. They said it was up to me to pay for therapy if i wanted it. Only by pleading and begging did they offer the second meeting. At this meeting, they'd done a sudden u-turn (we had no contact inbetween) and I was told I definitely needed therapy and they'd provide it. She got very dismissive and acted like I was doing something wrong when I enquired as to why they'd had such a radical change of heart.

I was allocated a care-coordinator (think was social worker, deffo not nurse) who used to check how I was and vaguely talked of DBT, but they never actually put me on a DBT course. Or suggested any therapy for the underlying depression and trauma (my CC did say that depression seemed to be main presenting issue.) Then I got discharged unexpectedly after a couple of months, and they wrote to my GP suggesting I shouldn't be referred again.

I live in a area with massive budget cuts, they may be only taking on peple with psychosis? I can't even find out if they have a psychology service anymore, no-one will tell me anything, they just keep parroting "go to your GP". As willow says, it is horrible to get your hopes up an then have them dashed again.


Thanks. Glad someone out there actually believes that services won't help and I'm not making it up! Yes exactly I am stuck between the two services.

I'm so tired of dealing with all the horrible memories and with no-one I can talk to about it, or who will be kind or treat me nicely when it hurts. Its always just me having to put a brave face on an I can't manage that very much at the moment. All this bullshit of trying to access some help is just what happens on top of what I'm already dealing with. People seem to forget that.

elementofsurprise Wed 23-Mar-16 11:58:31

costa what do you want from these threads? We can't make help appear - which is why I don't think mumsnet is helping you

Oh I'll just fuck off then. Obviously if services don't help I dont deserve any support from anywhere.

elementofsurprise Wed 23-Mar-16 12:04:10

And if youre dismissive of someone in pain, blaming them as if it's them being difficult when services wont help, then that is taking it out on them. On someone already at their wits end.
How do people think they are being helpful if they are suggesting something I've already explained doesn't work? I'd not do that to someone! Is being kind and supportive not a thing anymore? Do we have to have a solution or ignore someone?
I didnt ask for the things that happened to me, I didnt ask to live in this pain every day, I tried to get help and can't seem to, I tried private help and got rejected from that. Im just a shitty fuckup who should be dead really, because this world is cruel and unkind to people like me. I want to go back to my home planet where people are nice

OddBoots Wed 23-Mar-16 12:13:09

It does sound like it is a very frustrating situation. I would have hoped that a crisis team would be in a position to deal with that but it doesn't sound like it.

Do you feel the 18 months of seeing your private psychotherapeutic counsellor was helpful? What do you think caused it to become "weird" at the end?

Costacoffeeplease Wed 23-Mar-16 12:20:33

Didn't you post before that at the end of your private therapy you had become agitated or irritated with the counsellor and that led to the sessions being stopped? Or was that a different poster?

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