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Healing Divisions

(179 Posts)
Camomila Tue 13-Aug-19 11:35:02

My latest Brexit worry...

If we Brexit, the country is going to be divided, angry, and poorer. But even if we don't, there'll be some angry people.

Camomila Tue 13-Aug-19 11:43:26

Sorry, my post cut off.

I'm just wondering what can be done to improve social cohesion after Brexit or no Brexit/assuming the government of the day even wants to.

If I was the government (assuming we somehow revoked) I would invest a lot in the North and make foreign languages a compulsary school subject.

Goodness knows what I'd do if we Brexited!

What does everyone else think? What would you do if you were in charge?

Danetobe Tue 13-Aug-19 11:54:50

My biggest worry is what will happen, assuming brexit happens (deal or no deal - selfishly I'm not stressing about no deal as much as others are because I live in Denmark which is particularly well prepared with regard to the impact on individual citizens), when the promises people feel were made are not delivered. After all, everyone had their own particular brexit in mind and the leave campaign were quite careful to let people's imaginations run wild with possibilities. Compromises are obviously going to have to be made. How angry will people be when this becomes reality not project fear? I'm assuming this will take a few years to penetrate the psyche of the nation - that the UK has no longer not got a seat at the table and is a rule taker. National humiliation. Whose fault will it be? I think leading remoaners will be blamed. How will it manifest itself? Fuck knows. I don't.

TBH I'm past the point of caring anymore. If I were in charge I'd set in progress a serious campaign of expectation management. I don't expect that this will be done obviously - I expect the opposite in fact. It looks bleak.

GoneWishing Tue 13-Aug-19 12:06:04

when the promises people feel were made are not delivered

People will always find something else to blame than their own decisions. The EU/world will have screwed us over wrt deals, or the opposing parties have ruined the glorious Brexit, or all the remoaners, or generally just anyone else. I very much doubt most will look back and admit they fell for a lie and/or target their anger where it belongs.

Danetobe Tue 13-Aug-19 12:23:17

Oh when I say past the point of caring, I mean caring if the UK leaves or not. I care deeply about the repercussions. I think that both options now present a worse future for the UK, its residents and British citizens abroad then before the ref. So now the process must choose between two inferior alternatives. revoke A50 or leave. I really believe the politics of selling either to the public will be tricky to say the least, but honestly I think revoke will be less damaging over time. So I'm flying the flag for revoke over here in DK!

LouiseCollins28 Tue 13-Aug-19 12:24:58

Great question, really pleased to see a thread on this. From the point of view of social cohesion I'm really not sure which outcome Brexit/No Brexit is worse (don't think anyone should be sure either)

Think that "No Deal" Brexit is a different animal from leave with a Deal, and will be seen as such. I think the tribal identities are really strong now.

If we Remain then my perception is that the social cohesion of those who "count" in our society will be affirmed and enhanced, and as for those who don't?...

Well, you can throw money at people and communities and I don't underestimate the potential power of this in making people feel better, but how does this restore people's dignity and their trust in their leaders?

If we do Leave then as stated I think the manner of leaving makes a difference to the level of cohesion we can hope to see. If we Leave I can sadly see cliques growing further apart but since the Pro-Remain folks will continue to have the lion's share of economic opportunities and power in any scenario, how badly will such people be affected.

I can see a lot of "you bailed out the banks, what about us?" sentiment being raised.

yolofish Tue 13-Aug-19 12:33:17

Honestly, I don't think the divisions will be healed for at least 50 years (which by no coincidence is when Grease-Smug thinks we might see 'some' benefits).

Personally I will never forgive those who voted Leave. Luckily that number doesnt include any of my close family or friends. Unluckily, we will all be worse off.

DarlingNikita Tue 13-Aug-19 12:37:36

I'm not really interested in healing divisions. Any cunt who voted Leave is not a friend of mine.

yolofish Tue 13-Aug-19 12:49:20

darlingnikita grin

whyamidoingthis Tue 13-Aug-19 13:26:29

I'm Irish, living in Ireland so while we will be impacted hugely by brexit, we can at least lay the blame externally rather than on our family, friends and neighbours. I do have friends, family and colleagues living in the UK so have some level of awareness of feelings there.

I think the current situation in the UK is very sad for you all. I think that the level of division you are experiencing is probably similar to that experienced in Ireland after the civil war, post partition. It took place 1922-23. My father was born in the mid 40's and remembers the divisions based on the civil war when he was growing up. There were still hard feelings within families and neighbourhoods based on people's stance. That's 25/30 years afterwards. I suspect that the divisions in the UK will be worse, particularly if there is a massively negative impact on the economy and people's lives.

I do feel sorry for you all. However, the sympathy is somewhat diluted given the negative impact of brexit on the island of Ireland.

bellinisurge Tue 13-Aug-19 13:49:48

I've suggested what I think is a reasonable Leave solution- NI only backstop special economic area/border in the sea. I have no time for anyone who prefers no Deal over this or fails to suggest another option for an orderly Brexit. Frankly, they can fuck off if they don't have anything to give us an orderly Brexit. How's that for bringing the country together?

Camomila Tue 13-Aug-19 13:52:27

Yes, I think that's the worst thing - that it's not an external/unavoidable problem.. We've bought it on ourselves when we didn't have to.

I think it's also created a whole bunch of people who never felt like outsiders before but do now, I've lived here 26 years, and I never really felt like an immigrant before the referendum.

I always feel sad when I read threads like 'My parents voted for Brexit, DW is Spanish...'

ThereWillBeAdequateFood Tue 13-Aug-19 13:58:24

If this was the situation.

You are living in a cold house. Someone suggests lighting a fire in the middle of the room.
It’s pointed out this could well burn the house down and it might be better to put a jumper on and use a blanket.

They go ahead and set light to the fire anyway -
The house burns down. I’m now stuck outside in the rain with the numpty that set fire to the house. And I’m meant to heal divisions?

Fuck that.

GoneWishing Tue 13-Aug-19 14:02:16

I always feel sad when I read threads like 'My parents voted for Brexit, DW is Spanish...'

I'm a dirty EU forriner, and DH's whole family are avid Leavers, it turns out. DH seems to take it harder than I do. It seems to have been a bit of a last straw to him with his family, and he's now very low contact with them. I'm not enamoured with them, either, of course, but it doesn't have the same emotional effect on me - I already suspected they didn't like me much! (I've obviously heard all about how it's not "immigrants like YOU" who are the problem, but fuck that.)

I kind of agree with @DarlingNikita personally, to be honest.

jasjas1973 Tue 13-Aug-19 15:55:50

We all focus on Leave or Remain but the biggest issue, i believe facing the UK is the split in society, it was bad enough when it was "just" inequality but added to that is Brexit..

However, i'm with Nikita, its the Govt 's job to Govern (not mine) if the tory party was stupid enough to do this in the first place, its up to them to sort it out, though i believe it is not possible to "sort out" its Pandora's Box.

LouiseCollins28 Tue 13-Aug-19 16:05:06

Agree re the split society jasjas IMO it doesn't have to turn out that way, but I think it's likely it will. When one set of ideas has held sway for so long moving away from that is going to cause divisions.

Basilpots Tue 13-Aug-19 16:15:03

@Camomila Thanks for starting this thread. The problem isn’t just Leave/remain it’s the win/lose narrative which seems to have taken over the extreme of both sides. It’s almost the risk of losing ‘face’ is more important than doing what is best for the country.

GoneWishing I am so sorry you have been made to feel like that by your own family only thing I can say to you is I have never felt like that about people not born in this country, in fact I’m always a little bit chuffed someone from another part of the world chooses to come and make a life here.

I reserve my anger for the Conservative Party who made their ‘family drama’ into a national crisis. No amount of spin will make me think otherwise.

jasjas1973 Tue 13-Aug-19 16:21:34

Louise The two positions are irreconcilable and the decision to stay or leave the EU, incredibly complicated, it is a decision that never in a million years have been put to the UK public.
Especially considering that even at the peak of their support, UKIP got 3.8million votes, pro EU parties 24m.

It was like asking the public what type of Nuclear reactor should we build at Hinkley - EPR or PWR ? followed by we will enact whatever the public choose...do or die.

The best think to do now is to put brexit on hold until after a GE, some sort of vote is the only way to even attempt to heal division.

LouiseCollins28 Tue 13-Aug-19 16:43:02

Thank Jas

Since it was last put to the UK public not "a million" but a mere 44 years ago, can I assume you did/or would have expressed the same sentiment had Remain won, as "Britain in Europe" did in 1975 then? Was it too complicated then too?

How does putting things on hold help if the positions are "irreconcilable". If that's true, we'd just face the same dilemma a bit later?

jasjas1973 Tue 13-Aug-19 17:02:56

Since it was last put to the UK public not "a million" but a mere 44 years ago, can I assume you did/or would have expressed the same sentiment had Remain won, as "Britain in Europe" did in 1975 then? Was it too complicated then too?

There was no SM/CU/GFA/FOM/Passporting and the host of trade, environmental, worker rights regs etc etc ... it was a far simpler arrangement,
However since the 1975 vote, the UK has consistently voted into power pro EEC/EU govt's, not least Thatchers which took us much deeper into Europe, we subsequently voted in Major and Blair, again pro EU...... doesn't that tell you something?

How does putting things on hold help if the positions are "irreconcilable". If that's true, we'd just face the same dilemma a bit later?

As i said, a GE in which parties put forward their positions on brexit is "possibly" the only way to start.... its not a fix in anyway.

ATM no party or Govt has a mandate to no-deal and ND will prove to be even more divisive than a WA Brexit.

LouiseCollins28 Tue 13-Aug-19 17:15:34

It does tell me something. It tells me that people voted for those governments (and FWIW lots of people didn't too)

Point taken on a GE. Not sure how the voters are supposed to vote purely on Brexit and not other things (I don't think that works for a GE personally) but I can see some merit in having one as a beginning of a route out.

Leave has a direct mandate. Another GE, whatever its result, does not change that.

Ofitck Tue 13-Aug-19 17:22:27

I think it’ll be like in Spain post civil war and later Francoism, where the “pacto de olvido” means that day to day people are able to live alongside each other but behind closed doors views are still very entrenched.

The two sides of brexit are so fundamentally different I don’t thinl reconciliation is possible whatever the outcome of brexit, only collective agreement to brush it under the carpet as the alternative is too grim.

jasjas1973 Tue 13-Aug-19 17:30:24

Leave has a direct mandate. Another GE, whatever its result, does not change that

Yes i agree, its difficult for remainers to get around!

For me, what was used to promote Leave or for that matter Remain, was entirely different to what is happening now.... not so much the economics but the GFA and leaving with no deal.

None of this was talked about or promised in 2016, equally remain predictions turned out to be rather pessimistic !!

Sure a GE might be decided on other matters too but it would be predominately a Brexit campaign and give a new Tory Govt a genuine mandate to leave the EU....if they won.

BubblesBuddy Tue 13-Aug-19 17:36:11

Throughout the Blair years, the EU was barely talked about. It was a topic for the rump of the Conservative Party. What wasn’t really apparent until 10 years ago was the effect of Nigel Farage using divide and rule tactics with lies and veiled hate coming to the fore to drum up support which left the Conservatives very divided. Many conservatives are decent people but the rump has grown and it’s running the party. They jumped on the Brexit bandwaggon to stop the threat of Farage.

It’s very easy to whip people into a frenzy who are jealous, feel they are losing out and are happy to blame others. Hitler and others had a PhD in it. It’s a monumental shame we have such uneducated people who believed the rhetoric and didn’t get the Economics. Plus they were fed easy to understand lies. Now who did that in the 1930s?

If the banks had not been saved, many pension funds would have been down the Swanee not to mention People not getting paid and mortgages being unpaid etc. These banks were rescued for everyone. Again spin said it was for wealthy bankers. It was not. Banks are at the heart of commerce and industry. They cannot fail.

Will we reunite? No. I don’t like this selfish attitude of Brexiteers. It’s gung ho and reckless. We know a couple who voted Leave and we don’t see them these days. They have enough money to be insulated and they only care about themselves. They don’t need us as friends!

BubblesBuddy Tue 13-Aug-19 17:40:20

Remain views on leaving haven’t happened yet. Remind me of the exchange rates right now? What about inflation when imports cost a lot more? That always hits the least well off in society. No one ever saw leaving without a deal as something we would do. Also NI was never discussed. How can people still want Leave now they know the facts? Only because they don’t care, don’t understand or have plenty of money to insulate themselves.

BubblesBuddy Tue 13-Aug-19 17:42:44

And what about deals with the USA? What will we have to compromise on? Many things we don’t want to. We won’t be in any strong position to negotiate a trade deal where we get real benefit because we will be Desperate! Literally Desperate.

DarlingNikita Tue 13-Aug-19 17:45:11

remain predictions turned out to be rather pessimistic !!

Pah hah hah. Come back and say that a bit further down the line.

SonEtLumiere Tue 13-Aug-19 17:48:07

OP, how can there be any healing when so many of those who voted for Brexit want you to be grateful to them.

Where you see your life laid waste before your eyes, they see something wholesome and beneficial to you. And if they don’t then the negative impact of their actions is your fault anyway.

That’s how far away the UK is from healing, it cannot begin to hope to heal until Brexiters stop with the blaming and start accepting some responsibility for what they have done already. Nobody believes that the success of the UK post-Brexit is down to them, but the fault for failure lies somewhere else.

BubblesBuddy Tue 13-Aug-19 17:52:08

And what about the billions £ we are spending on this nonsense? Contingency funds. Already we don’t have HRT drugs. No shortage in the EU. Just here. Why? Because the drugs companies are selling elsewhere, that’s why. Just the start of things to come.

LouiseCollins28 Tue 13-Aug-19 17:53:43

For me that's a very good example of why this division is so serious. Bubbles deals in facts see, thereby implying others do not. Further, not only is "Leaving" not an acceptable outcome. Even wanting to leave, is now unacceptable too?!

If the divisions are going to be healed up, then as I see it:

Our leaders need to convince those who did and those who did not vote for whichever is the eventual outcome that their stake in our society is still as valuable as it ever was.

twofingerstoEverything Tue 13-Aug-19 17:57:09

Louise ...but since the Pro-Remain folks will continue to have the lion's share of economic opportunities and power in any scenario, how badly will such people be affected.

Someone's bought into the remainer = elite/leavers = victims bullshit I see? I'm surprised this nonsense is still doing the rounds, given that 48% of the voting population can't be elite/economically powerful etc. I'm pro Remain. Brexit will very likely make me poorer and further restrict my already limited opportunities. Assertions like yours really annoy me. You just need to look at the BJs/Farage/JRM/Dyson/Michael Caine/CEO of Next to see privilege and power. Poor little them, eh?

EllebellyBeeblebrox Tue 13-Aug-19 18:10:22

Another one here not currently interested in healing divisions. Too frustrated and angry and worried about what the future holds. Too pissed off with the Conservatives and many of the leave voters. I think while austerity still bites and the gap between the haves and the have nots is so wide divisions are inevitable, that's what government should be addressing. I am under no illusions that this government will do that.

twofingerstoEverything Tue 13-Aug-19 18:14:11

Going back to the OP, I don't know how the divide can be healed because ever since June 2016, 48% of voters have been ignored. TM's red lines and shouts of 'Brexit Means Brexit' pandered to hardliners and ignored moderate voices. The closeness of the result in what was, after all, an advisory referendum has barely been acknowledged. I'm not suggesting Remain supporters should have been pandered to and Leavers ignored; I'm saying the closeness should have been conceded and attempts made to honour the referendum result in an orderly (softer) fashion that would minimise damage and disruption.

Divisions have been stoked by politicians, the media, etc., as half of voters have been dismissed as elite remoaners while the other half shout 'we won' without being able to agree on what the prize is.

Peregrina Tue 13-Aug-19 18:47:58

Our leaders need to convince those who did and those who did not vote for whichever is the eventual outcome that their stake in our society is still as valuable as it ever was.

I agree with this, but I don't see the current crop of 'Leaders' being able to do this. Maybe in 10 or twenty years time the leadership will come forward. After all after the horrors of WW2, the leadership came forward to propose the founding of the EEC, realising that there had to be a better way.

I agree with twofingers too - if we had gone for a soft Brexit - Norway plus, most of us Remainers would have said, OK, it's not as good, but it will do. Now I just feel a slow hardening anger at Leavers.

jasjas1973 Tue 13-Aug-19 18:50:39

*Our leaders need to convince those who did and those who did not vote for whichever is the eventual outcome that their stake in our society is still as valuable as it ever was8

Lets say we Remain, the Govt could have a "Marshall Plan" for the regions... or similar, poll after poll shows that many who voted leave did so out of a sense of being ignored and economic decline, rather than being particularly anti EU.

But if we Leave, what exactly is going to appease Remainers? or make them feel valued?

Cyclemad222 Tue 13-Aug-19 18:54:10

The rift won't heal, it'll die off. It's more about young/old than anything else. Baby boomers are 70ish now. Give it a decade or two.

jasjas1973 Tue 13-Aug-19 18:58:48

Most of the people i know who voted leave are quite yond, 30 to 50 ish, a few boomers and elderly.

Just as Brexit isn't split down party lines, its not as simple as old vs young either.

Even if it was, we are still outside of the EU and unlikely to re join.

bellinisurge Tue 13-Aug-19 19:02:04

Yup, most of the Leave voters I know are young. Between 20 and 40. I'm about a year too young to be a baby boomer. But most of the boomers I know voted Remain. As did I.

Camomila Tue 13-Aug-19 19:07:51

But if we Leave, what exactly is going to appease Remainers? or make them feel valued?

Exactly!

BubblesBuddy Tue 13-Aug-19 19:42:45

If remainers feel they have to work longer and harder to put money into the economy that others have put a torch to, then their only value is their taxes but little for themselves. It would be the same in a Labour Party give-away. Oh, and many old Labour trots were fiercely anti SU. Tony Benn for a start. I am pleased through that more sensible modern Labour MPs have understood the damage likely to the economic lives of their constituents.

There does need to be more spending in the North. Not on shoring up business post Brexit or the vanity project of HS2. Real money going into Northern connectivity. This could have been done whilst being in the EU and increasing the number of well off people paying higher rate tax. This is a bigger sum than the lower rate tax take. The more people that get into high earner tax brackets, the more money the government has for projects. Everyone needs a bouyant London but it needs more than just London. Leaving the EU really doesn’t help if tax payments are less, jobs are lost and the economy is in recession.

MaxNormal Tue 13-Aug-19 19:58:12

I don't feel remotely inclined to heal any division. I'm done with England, politically. I will focus on supporting the push for Scottish independence. Thankfully I don't know any Leavers here in Scotland.

MeganBacon Tue 13-Aug-19 20:15:10

48% of voters have been ignored
I don't agree. There was a largely Remainer cabinet and a WA that really was a compromise, so it did recognise the 48%. Parliament couldn't get it approved due to the fact that it unified the non-compromisers from both Leave and Remain, who jointly outnumbered the middle ground compromisers.

jasjas1973 Tue 13-Aug-19 20:24:05

Megan Of course the 48% were ignored, we lost! there is no fucking compromise, just as if the result had gone the other way... we would have won and stayed IN, pissing off the xx% who voted Leave.

It was a binary question and a close result was bound to cause division across the nation... and why Cameron was an idiot to even consider an EU referendum.

Aside, if there was a remainer cabinet, they'd have revoked Art50, just as a remainer Parliament would have, as far as i can see, both are heavily Leave.

Jocasta2018 Tue 13-Aug-19 20:28:20

My parents, aunts & uncles were all born between 1930-1941. All had parents that didn't make it back, Some even had grandparents that had never been 'the same' after returning from the Great War. All voted to join the EEC in the 1970s & all voted to remain in 2016 - after the longest spell of peace in Europe for over a century.

The main leavers I know are in their early 60s. All bought their council houses on one salary & made an absolute killing. They entered the workforce with nothing more than CSEs and were able to work their way up. Whilst I'm pleasant to them, it's truly changed how I view them.

Leave/Remain divisions will never be healed. And yes, the EU and Remainers will be blamed when it all goes tits up.

MeganBacon Tue 13-Aug-19 20:31:30

Neither side in a 48/52 result should consider themselves "ignored" just because they don't get everything they want. They should consider themselves heard if they get about half of what they want. Which was basically the WA.

GhostofFrankGrimes Tue 13-Aug-19 20:40:34

Mays deal was hard brexit. Out the CU, out the SM. The goal posts got shifted post referendum. We’ve come along way from Norway style deal.

MeganBacon Tue 13-Aug-19 20:46:23

OK some potential compromisers were alienated by the fact that TM and Robbins didn't consult enough - a cross party working group would have had more buy in and expectations about the backstop would have been managed far better. But both leavers and remainers can be equally annoyed about that. When MPs were asked to vote on the WA, it was the only compromise available and both sets of non-compromisers chose a double or quits approach, a gamble which at the moment seems likely to pay off for the non-compromising leavers.

jasjas1973 Tue 13-Aug-19 20:47:46

Megan i don't know where to start with that.

Are you being serious or just goady?

bellinisurge Tue 13-Aug-19 20:51:54

@MeganBacon you know damn well that there hasn't been any compromise from the Leave side. Just flouncy waiting for Remain voters to agree with them.
No Deal is the ultimate No Compromise position and not a single Leaver has done anything to avoid it.

MeganBacon Tue 13-Aug-19 21:03:34

I wouldn't know how to be goady. That is how I see it. No deal is what we are heading for now and it's nothing like the WA would have been - yes Bellini it is the ultimate no compromise position and it's tragic. The WA was the compromise and people like Grieve didn't vote for it when he had the chance. To be clear, I am not blaming him - I am just saying he gambled that something better would become available instead of compromising and it looks like he has lost that gamble. Johnson and JRM did vote for the WA (the second time only I think?) because although it didn't give them everything they wanted, it went part way.

GhostofFrankGrimes Tue 13-Aug-19 21:10:07

Governments have a responsibility to the people they serve. No deal is utterly irresponsible and any decent government would admit that there is no consensus and admit Brexit was a big mistake and revoke. Nobody is forcing the UK to no deal there is no obligation to leave other than to honour a 3 year old glorified opinion poll.

nothingwittyhere Tue 13-Aug-19 21:14:32

Since we're obviously stuck with a now completely divided society, courtesy of the dickhead Conservatives who decided to give us a referendum solely to bribe some voters that might have gone to UKIP, we might as well do what's best for the long term economic stability of the UK and revoke A50. Only lunatics give a rat's arse about the supposed political ambitions of the EU and why should lunatics call the shots?

jasjas1973 Tue 13-Aug-19 21:16:12

The WA is leaving every aspect of the EU, with a PD that meant everything and anything could have been the outcome, it was a terrible deal for the country and for any remainer.

I don't believe the likes of Grieve opposed it hoping something better would come along, they opposed it because it was a v bad deal, hence the size of its defeat across the 'house.

tbh i was surprised the ERG were against the WA, they would have been able to drive the negotiations any way they wished over the following 2 years, it gave them almost all they wanted.

No-deal isn't a win for ERG/leave at all, it may well mean the Tories are out of power for a generation, probably why it won't happen.

frumpety Tue 13-Aug-19 21:21:41

What is it that people see in Nigel Farage aged 55, that excuses him slagging off the dead mother of the 93 year old Monarch of the country he purports to love. Two women who were actually alive during the Blitz, unlike him. She is a sitting duck because he knows she can never respond or retaliate, just so bloody cowardly and unnecessary. Can you imagine holding anyone in esteem who did this to any other 93 year old woman ? All that money and privileged education, yet absolutely no class Nigel , shame on you

TheElementsSong Tue 13-Aug-19 22:42:42

The WA was a compromise?

whyamidoingthis Tue 13-Aug-19 22:53:12

Norway+ would have been a compromise.

yolofish Tue 13-Aug-19 23:02:14

Thinking on this, I feel that the 48% who voted Remain have been totally ignored throughout the whole 'process' - such as it was - since the Referendum.

Any kind of building bridges need to come from the Leavers instead of 'we won, get over it suckers'.

Of course that wont happen... instead when the shit finally hits the fan it will be the Remainers fault for somehow not getting into the Brexit feelz.

mindproject Tue 13-Aug-19 23:53:05

Personally I'm not seeing any divisions. I'm a left-wing remainer, my friends are all left-wing remainers. I work with some leave voters, but they were never my kind of people anyway, so we don't discuss it. My parents voted leave, but I went no contact with them long before the referendum. On social media I had a couple of arguments just after the referendum, but now I don't waste my time.

Most people are just going to stick in their friendly little groups with likeminded people, they're not going to go out of their way to stir things up. I don't think anyone wants the Brexit shit stirred.

The only thing that would really bring people together is either a cancellation of the whole sorry mess. Or a miraculous successful Brexit with a million free unicorns for everyone. Neither of these are likely.

Doubletrouble99 Wed 14-Aug-19 00:10:57

I think, in order to understand Leavers you have to imagine the mentality of a Scot wanting independence from the UK. Do you think they want it for economic reasons? Eh no, Do you think they will care if there is some hardship for a while once they have independence? Eh no.
Well imagine leavers have the same mentality about wanting to leave the EU.

YeOldeTrout Wed 14-Aug-19 04:36:40

If (when) we 'Leave' that will mean that the people who 'Won' are the ones who promoted these viewpoints. I have no idea how Britain will ever be unified again.

Danetobe Wed 14-Aug-19 07:14:11

I think I personally will never be able to get rid of the hurt that was caused by the ref to me. MY grandparents and dad escaped to the UK in the early 30s, which is the only reason they survived the war. I grew up in an EU 27 country and my dad worked nearly all this career playing a very small part in keeping peace in Bosnia and NI alkongside colleagues from all EU countries. I was proud of the UKs contrubution to an imperfect EU, but i still think that peace in europe will be kept when people from all countries feel they have a say. (The UK always did, and I believe it was a well respected and valued member - clearly this was not communicated by the politicians/press). The UK played such a big role in representing the small countries interest, whose populations otherwise may feel like the bigger countries are too powerful. Like many beleavers,the pain is not (only) econimoc for me, its personal. I don't think I'll ever be reconcilled to that way of thinking. Being called a 'citizen of nowhere' by my own PM also didn't help. On the day of that speech I thought about the day I got training AS A CHILD of how to check for and recognise car bombs that may have been planted by the IRA and wondering how terrified my parents must have been to bring us up in that environment. My dad is dead now but he was devastated by the result in 2016. A lot of pain from me and no healing, maybe never.

SonEtLumiere Wed 14-Aug-19 07:23:23

The Citizens of Nowhere comment was absolutely disgusting.

TheElementsSong Wed 14-Aug-19 07:28:53

The Citizens of Nowhere comment was absolutely disgusting.

And there are plenty of Leave posters even on MN who are still spaffing on about the dubiousness of people with foreign taint, whether by blood or birth, or education, or (the horror!) working for employers of foreign origin, or (FGS) having a foreign surname. Seems like they have no effing problem with division and the Citizens of Nowhere narrative.

Mistigri Wed 14-Aug-19 07:51:19

The Citizens of Nowhere comment was absolutely disgusting.

And the queue jumpers.

Peregrina Wed 14-Aug-19 08:06:03

No-deal isn't a win for ERG/leave at all, it may well mean the Tories are out of power for a generation, probably why it won't happen.

I wish I could believe this. But until Brexit is dead and buried, I can't.

Dapplegrey Wed 14-Aug-19 08:10:33

She is a sitting duck because he knows she can never respond or retaliate, just so bloody cowardly and unnecessary

That is true frumpety but in fairness Nigel Farage isn’t the only person to criticise the Royal Family. Look no further than mumsnet where there are posts suggesting they are lined up against the wall and shot.

MaxNormal Wed 14-Aug-19 08:20:37

I think, in order to understand Leavers you have to imagine the mentality of a Scot wanting independence from the UK.

As a Scot wanting independence I completely disagree. I want it so that we can rejoin an outward looking, connected world and to get away from the financial disaster that Westminster is creating.

There is no place for Scotland with this self-destructive English nationalism that has infected the thinking of many.

Helmetbymidnight Wed 14-Aug-19 08:24:27

yeah, posters on mn slagging off royalty is exactly the same as a leader of a political party - apparently a major force in british politics- doing so as a paid speaker.
exactly.

the divisions will heal as they have to- look at places that have endured far far worse- they have to put the history of hate behind them and get on. reconciliation etc. having said that, Ive no respect for brexiteers and try and avoid them as much as possible.

jasjas1973 Wed 14-Aug-19 08:28:05

@frumpety

Farage is now setting the narrative that should the Queen become embroiled in Brexit, she can now be blamed too... a liberal elite, thwarting the Will of the People.

Its what Trump has done too, normalising criticism of people previously thought of as untouchable e.g. the decorated war hero McCain or the muslim ex-soldier with a Purple Heart award.

Dangerous times, reminiscent of the Nazi party era and their early verbal attacks on jews, disabled and the elites.

Peregrina Wed 14-Aug-19 08:50:53

he divisions will heal as they have to- look at places that have endured far far worse- they have to put the history of hate behind them and get on.

Keep looking then - India/Pakistan/Kashmir. Israel/Palestine? Even the Good Friday Agreement wasn't achieved without a lot of hard work.

Peregrina Wed 14-Aug-19 08:53:58

I would hope that the Queen is still much more respected than Farage will ever be. My worry is that she will die or become incapacitated before this is over, and Charles just hasn't got the experience that she brings to the Monarchy. I say this and am absolutely not a royalist but I do think the Queen genuinely wants to serve the country.

Helmetbymidnight Wed 14-Aug-19 09:00:03

how about france/germany? grin

s.africa, ex-yugoslavia?

we haven't got to the depths of division some places have- so although it will be hard work, it can be done.

Basilpots Wed 14-Aug-19 09:12:22

@Peregrina My. Thoughts exactly about the Queen she has a level of respect that I just don’t think Charles will ever have and I still remember all the fuss about the ‘black spider memos’ he was seen to be meddling in Government affairs. Although on release the letters were not seen as controversial it does suggest he may not be prepared to keep as quiet about political affairs as the Queen is.

Helmetbymidnight Wed 14-Aug-19 09:20:13

it is curious to see brexiteers attacking the judiciary, the civil service, the union and now the royal family.

i wouldn't have predicted it.

Helmetbymidnight Wed 14-Aug-19 09:30:24

can you imagine if jeremy corbyn had said what NF did? grin
they'd be screaming for a public execution.

twofingerstoEverything Wed 14-Aug-19 10:19:16

can you imagine if jeremy corbyn had said what NF did?
Even worse... imagine if he'd been wearing a RAINCOAT while he said it.

Mistigri Wed 14-Aug-19 10:37:26

it is curious to see brexiteers attacking the judiciary, the civil service, the union and now the royal family

I am not sure how it is possible to "come together" with people who have so little respect for the constitutional institutions of their country.

MaxNormal Wed 14-Aug-19 11:14:28

Even worse... imagine if he'd been wearing a RAINCOAT while he said it.

Shocking, that was. Not like Dominic Cummings who is always the height of sartorial elegance. Or the impeccably tailored and groomed Boris Johnson.

Helmetbymidnight Wed 14-Aug-19 12:14:26

jeremy corbyn dissing the queen while in a ...raincoat! hmmshockgrin

can you imagine the fall-out from that!

jasjas1973 Wed 14-Aug-19 12:27:33

s.africa, ex-yugoslavia?

we haven't got to the depths of division some places have- so although it will be hard work, it can be done

These countries went to some very dark places before peace came about.
Also, having lived in SA i'm not sure divisions have been healed, papered over would be more accurate, still huge inequality and violence.
The solution for Yugoslavia was to split the place up and move populations around.

The UK, as you say, isn't at anything like these levels of division but for a 1st world country, we've gone a long way in a very short time for absolutely no reason or gain.

As far as i can see, any idea that we will come together as a country is decades away.. remember there is a generation coming up behind us that will demand we rejoin the EU, so another re-opening of division.

Helmetbymidnight Wed 14-Aug-19 13:33:47

we've gone a long way in a very short time for absolutely no reason or gain

and thats the key disturbing thing about it for me- for the average people in this country its just a massive, massive loss-

and even brexiteers cant be arsed to lie about that anymore- even the thick ones are beginning to work out the damage that will be done but they're like, 'yeah it'll be crap but 'independence' and we're meant to nod and say ok fine.

TheElementsSong Wed 14-Aug-19 15:33:50

Meanwhile, the new PM doesn't just follow in the footsteps of the previous one, but breaks new ground in the division stakes: "terrible collaboration" hmm Yeah, those divisions are totally going to heal on Oct 31st.

Helmetbymidnight Wed 14-Aug-19 15:37:20

he's a fucking twat.

thing is the thick brexiteers believe everything he says.

LouiseCollins28 Wed 14-Aug-19 16:05:45

It is beyond doubt, in my view, that there are Members of Parliament who are trying to stop Brexit, a good many of them are very, very open about this.

So there is actually some sense in the argument that "why should the EU offer anything new?" when Parliament can still stop Brexit and if it does, no offer needs to have been made. They would be giving up something they didn't need to.

I think describing this a "terrible collaboration" as Boris has is very unhelpful, but his point can be seen.

I also think Phil Hammond is right though, there probably is enough weight in Parliament to stop "No Deal" but they'd better get organised pronto.

time4chocolate Wed 14-Aug-19 16:23:48

I think that’s probably what the EU are hoping for.

If MPs stop ‘no deal’ from going through what the chuff happens after that? has Phil got a cunning plan up his sleeve? will they bring the WA back for a fourth time? or will we just get a repeat performance of MPs running around like headless chickens, bickering amongst themselves and getting nowhere.

If I was a betting person I’d put my money on the headless chicken scenario.

LouiseCollins28 Wed 14-Aug-19 16:33:40

If they've got any sense they'll couple up a vote against "no deal" with a vote in favour of another proposition. For me, that alternative needs to be something reasonable, and that likely means pretty close to what has already been agreed with the EU by the May Government or some defined alternative destination.

If we just get more posturing about "Revoke A50"; "a People's Vote" or a "Jobs First Brexit" then any remaining faith I have in our Parliamentarians will be absolutely gone.

bellinisurge Wed 14-Aug-19 19:00:57

NI only backstop. Border in the sea. Never tested in Parliament.fixes it now.

TheElementsSong Wed 14-Aug-19 19:02:25

Well, at the moment although I'm not a Parliamentarian (until those divisions turn out not to be healing, anyway) I am very very open about preferring that Brexit is stopped. It's not contradictory with preferring a Deal to No Deal.

Any more than preferring not having any amputations at all is not contradictory with (if it were unavoidable) preferring to have a toe cut off rather than an entire leg.

bellinisurge Wed 14-Aug-19 19:27:26

You are right, @TheElementsSong . But if I can't have what I want - which is Revoke - I will accept the least worst version. I will never ever accept No Deal and my contempt for anyone who does is total. I won't spit in their faces. That's the best I can offer.

Gobbolinocat Wed 14-Aug-19 19:51:28

I know leavers and Remainers and some Remainers don't have foreigners in family and some leavers are from extremely multi cultural families from across Europe and the world.

TheElementsSong Wed 14-Aug-19 19:54:59

But if I can't have what I want - which is Revoke - I will accept the least worst version. I will never ever accept No Deal and my contempt for anyone who does is total.

Basically my position too!

Doubletrouble99 Wed 14-Aug-19 22:12:38

MaxNormal - my point exactly. If you insert UK instead of Scotland in your post you will see what I mean. Also I do think it's a bit ripe of you a Scottish Nationalist to slag off English Nationalists!!

woman19 Wed 14-Aug-19 22:47:18

If we Brexit, the country is going to be divided, angry, and poorer. But even if we don't, there'll be some angry people

Just a few angry little impotent men,and their employees, I think you'll find.

It has all helped me decide which side I'm on though. Me and 55% of the uk. And 27 allied nations.

Interesting times for the little men, I'd say. wink

time4chocolate Wed 14-Aug-19 22:56:53

Interesting times for the little men, I'd say. wink

and certainly not to be underestimated by the me's, 55%ers and 27 allied nations wink

Helmetbymidnight Thu 15-Aug-19 07:10:48

well, its interesting ie difficult times for everyone.

if there were some positives to brexit then i expect more people would get behind it. its bewildering to be heading for something that even its advocates cant explain why its good.

MysteryTripAgain Thu 15-Aug-19 08:03:19

Norway model for me.

Benefits for Leave Supporters are;

Norway can seek trade deals with non EU countries
Norway can't be overruled by ECJ
Payment to EU could be reduced so there is a Brexit Dividend

Downside for leave supporters

Some form of Customs Union would still be required

Benefits for Remain supporters are;

Access to single market
Checks on goods from Norway into EU subject to less control than Non EU Countries.

Downsides for remain supporters;

Can't think of any at present

twofingerstoEverything Thu 15-Aug-19 08:53:46

I also think Norway model is a good one. I could get behind that much more than the WA.

TheElementsSong Thu 15-Aug-19 09:17:58

Agree Mystery.

Way back in the heady Summer of 2016 - when I thought that Brexit was merely "shit" and before Maybot's Red Lines for Citizens of Nowhere - I imagined that a Norway+ model would best fulfil the result of the referendum. As exhorted by Leavers that "we lost" and to "get over it" I would very much have "accepted" that outcome.

And I still would, as being far preferable and more like an actual compromise, than the WA.

Peregrina Thu 15-Aug-19 09:32:38

its bewildering to be heading for something that even its advocates cant explain why its good.

I can't speak for the people who post here, but for the wealthy brexiters in the Tory party and Government - the chance to make much more money and shaft the rest of us. But this isn't something they can really shout from the rooftops.

jasjas1973 Thu 15-Aug-19 09:33:04

Well, trying to be even handed!
The Norway model has a huge hole in it from a leavers POV, we would have to accept FOM & we would be paying in but with zero say over rules and regs, plus we would have no influence on any reform of the EU, that would be driven by Germany and France.

Finding a solution that is acceptable to both, very entrenched sides, is impossible.

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