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Healing Divisions

(179 Posts)
Camomila Tue 13-Aug-19 11:35:02

My latest Brexit worry...

If we Brexit, the country is going to be divided, angry, and poorer. But even if we don't, there'll be some angry people.

Camomila Tue 13-Aug-19 11:43:26

Sorry, my post cut off.

I'm just wondering what can be done to improve social cohesion after Brexit or no Brexit/assuming the government of the day even wants to.

If I was the government (assuming we somehow revoked) I would invest a lot in the North and make foreign languages a compulsary school subject.

Goodness knows what I'd do if we Brexited!

What does everyone else think? What would you do if you were in charge?

Danetobe Tue 13-Aug-19 11:54:50

My biggest worry is what will happen, assuming brexit happens (deal or no deal - selfishly I'm not stressing about no deal as much as others are because I live in Denmark which is particularly well prepared with regard to the impact on individual citizens), when the promises people feel were made are not delivered. After all, everyone had their own particular brexit in mind and the leave campaign were quite careful to let people's imaginations run wild with possibilities. Compromises are obviously going to have to be made. How angry will people be when this becomes reality not project fear? I'm assuming this will take a few years to penetrate the psyche of the nation - that the UK has no longer not got a seat at the table and is a rule taker. National humiliation. Whose fault will it be? I think leading remoaners will be blamed. How will it manifest itself? Fuck knows. I don't.

TBH I'm past the point of caring anymore. If I were in charge I'd set in progress a serious campaign of expectation management. I don't expect that this will be done obviously - I expect the opposite in fact. It looks bleak.

GoneWishing Tue 13-Aug-19 12:06:04

when the promises people feel were made are not delivered

People will always find something else to blame than their own decisions. The EU/world will have screwed us over wrt deals, or the opposing parties have ruined the glorious Brexit, or all the remoaners, or generally just anyone else. I very much doubt most will look back and admit they fell for a lie and/or target their anger where it belongs.

Danetobe Tue 13-Aug-19 12:23:17

Oh when I say past the point of caring, I mean caring if the UK leaves or not. I care deeply about the repercussions. I think that both options now present a worse future for the UK, its residents and British citizens abroad then before the ref. So now the process must choose between two inferior alternatives. revoke A50 or leave. I really believe the politics of selling either to the public will be tricky to say the least, but honestly I think revoke will be less damaging over time. So I'm flying the flag for revoke over here in DK!

LouiseCollins28 Tue 13-Aug-19 12:24:58

Great question, really pleased to see a thread on this. From the point of view of social cohesion I'm really not sure which outcome Brexit/No Brexit is worse (don't think anyone should be sure either)

Think that "No Deal" Brexit is a different animal from leave with a Deal, and will be seen as such. I think the tribal identities are really strong now.

If we Remain then my perception is that the social cohesion of those who "count" in our society will be affirmed and enhanced, and as for those who don't?...

Well, you can throw money at people and communities and I don't underestimate the potential power of this in making people feel better, but how does this restore people's dignity and their trust in their leaders?

If we do Leave then as stated I think the manner of leaving makes a difference to the level of cohesion we can hope to see. If we Leave I can sadly see cliques growing further apart but since the Pro-Remain folks will continue to have the lion's share of economic opportunities and power in any scenario, how badly will such people be affected.

I can see a lot of "you bailed out the banks, what about us?" sentiment being raised.

yolofish Tue 13-Aug-19 12:33:17

Honestly, I don't think the divisions will be healed for at least 50 years (which by no coincidence is when Grease-Smug thinks we might see 'some' benefits).

Personally I will never forgive those who voted Leave. Luckily that number doesnt include any of my close family or friends. Unluckily, we will all be worse off.

DarlingNikita Tue 13-Aug-19 12:37:36

I'm not really interested in healing divisions. Any cunt who voted Leave is not a friend of mine.

yolofish Tue 13-Aug-19 12:49:20

darlingnikita grin

whyamidoingthis Tue 13-Aug-19 13:26:29

I'm Irish, living in Ireland so while we will be impacted hugely by brexit, we can at least lay the blame externally rather than on our family, friends and neighbours. I do have friends, family and colleagues living in the UK so have some level of awareness of feelings there.

I think the current situation in the UK is very sad for you all. I think that the level of division you are experiencing is probably similar to that experienced in Ireland after the civil war, post partition. It took place 1922-23. My father was born in the mid 40's and remembers the divisions based on the civil war when he was growing up. There were still hard feelings within families and neighbourhoods based on people's stance. That's 25/30 years afterwards. I suspect that the divisions in the UK will be worse, particularly if there is a massively negative impact on the economy and people's lives.

I do feel sorry for you all. However, the sympathy is somewhat diluted given the negative impact of brexit on the island of Ireland.

bellinisurge Tue 13-Aug-19 13:49:48

I've suggested what I think is a reasonable Leave solution- NI only backstop special economic area/border in the sea. I have no time for anyone who prefers no Deal over this or fails to suggest another option for an orderly Brexit. Frankly, they can fuck off if they don't have anything to give us an orderly Brexit. How's that for bringing the country together?

Camomila Tue 13-Aug-19 13:52:27

Yes, I think that's the worst thing - that it's not an external/unavoidable problem.. We've bought it on ourselves when we didn't have to.

I think it's also created a whole bunch of people who never felt like outsiders before but do now, I've lived here 26 years, and I never really felt like an immigrant before the referendum.

I always feel sad when I read threads like 'My parents voted for Brexit, DW is Spanish...'

ThereWillBeAdequateFood Tue 13-Aug-19 13:58:24

If this was the situation.

You are living in a cold house. Someone suggests lighting a fire in the middle of the room.
It’s pointed out this could well burn the house down and it might be better to put a jumper on and use a blanket.

They go ahead and set light to the fire anyway -
The house burns down. I’m now stuck outside in the rain with the numpty that set fire to the house. And I’m meant to heal divisions?

Fuck that.

GoneWishing Tue 13-Aug-19 14:02:16

I always feel sad when I read threads like 'My parents voted for Brexit, DW is Spanish...'

I'm a dirty EU forriner, and DH's whole family are avid Leavers, it turns out. DH seems to take it harder than I do. It seems to have been a bit of a last straw to him with his family, and he's now very low contact with them. I'm not enamoured with them, either, of course, but it doesn't have the same emotional effect on me - I already suspected they didn't like me much! (I've obviously heard all about how it's not "immigrants like YOU" who are the problem, but fuck that.)

I kind of agree with @DarlingNikita personally, to be honest.

jasjas1973 Tue 13-Aug-19 15:55:50

We all focus on Leave or Remain but the biggest issue, i believe facing the UK is the split in society, it was bad enough when it was "just" inequality but added to that is Brexit..

However, i'm with Nikita, its the Govt 's job to Govern (not mine) if the tory party was stupid enough to do this in the first place, its up to them to sort it out, though i believe it is not possible to "sort out" its Pandora's Box.

LouiseCollins28 Tue 13-Aug-19 16:05:06

Agree re the split society jasjas IMO it doesn't have to turn out that way, but I think it's likely it will. When one set of ideas has held sway for so long moving away from that is going to cause divisions.

Basilpots Tue 13-Aug-19 16:15:03

@Camomila Thanks for starting this thread. The problem isn’t just Leave/remain it’s the win/lose narrative which seems to have taken over the extreme of both sides. It’s almost the risk of losing ‘face’ is more important than doing what is best for the country.

GoneWishing I am so sorry you have been made to feel like that by your own family only thing I can say to you is I have never felt like that about people not born in this country, in fact I’m always a little bit chuffed someone from another part of the world chooses to come and make a life here.

I reserve my anger for the Conservative Party who made their ‘family drama’ into a national crisis. No amount of spin will make me think otherwise.

jasjas1973 Tue 13-Aug-19 16:21:34

Louise The two positions are irreconcilable and the decision to stay or leave the EU, incredibly complicated, it is a decision that never in a million years have been put to the UK public.
Especially considering that even at the peak of their support, UKIP got 3.8million votes, pro EU parties 24m.

It was like asking the public what type of Nuclear reactor should we build at Hinkley - EPR or PWR ? followed by we will enact whatever the public choose...do or die.

The best think to do now is to put brexit on hold until after a GE, some sort of vote is the only way to even attempt to heal division.

LouiseCollins28 Tue 13-Aug-19 16:43:02

Thank Jas

Since it was last put to the UK public not "a million" but a mere 44 years ago, can I assume you did/or would have expressed the same sentiment had Remain won, as "Britain in Europe" did in 1975 then? Was it too complicated then too?

How does putting things on hold help if the positions are "irreconcilable". If that's true, we'd just face the same dilemma a bit later?

jasjas1973 Tue 13-Aug-19 17:02:56

Since it was last put to the UK public not "a million" but a mere 44 years ago, can I assume you did/or would have expressed the same sentiment had Remain won, as "Britain in Europe" did in 1975 then? Was it too complicated then too?

There was no SM/CU/GFA/FOM/Passporting and the host of trade, environmental, worker rights regs etc etc ... it was a far simpler arrangement,
However since the 1975 vote, the UK has consistently voted into power pro EEC/EU govt's, not least Thatchers which took us much deeper into Europe, we subsequently voted in Major and Blair, again pro EU...... doesn't that tell you something?

How does putting things on hold help if the positions are "irreconcilable". If that's true, we'd just face the same dilemma a bit later?

As i said, a GE in which parties put forward their positions on brexit is "possibly" the only way to start.... its not a fix in anyway.

ATM no party or Govt has a mandate to no-deal and ND will prove to be even more divisive than a WA Brexit.

LouiseCollins28 Tue 13-Aug-19 17:15:34

It does tell me something. It tells me that people voted for those governments (and FWIW lots of people didn't too)

Point taken on a GE. Not sure how the voters are supposed to vote purely on Brexit and not other things (I don't think that works for a GE personally) but I can see some merit in having one as a beginning of a route out.

Leave has a direct mandate. Another GE, whatever its result, does not change that.

Ofitck Tue 13-Aug-19 17:22:27

I think it’ll be like in Spain post civil war and later Francoism, where the “pacto de olvido” means that day to day people are able to live alongside each other but behind closed doors views are still very entrenched.

The two sides of brexit are so fundamentally different I don’t thinl reconciliation is possible whatever the outcome of brexit, only collective agreement to brush it under the carpet as the alternative is too grim.

jasjas1973 Tue 13-Aug-19 17:30:24

Leave has a direct mandate. Another GE, whatever its result, does not change that

Yes i agree, its difficult for remainers to get around!

For me, what was used to promote Leave or for that matter Remain, was entirely different to what is happening now.... not so much the economics but the GFA and leaving with no deal.

None of this was talked about or promised in 2016, equally remain predictions turned out to be rather pessimistic !!

Sure a GE might be decided on other matters too but it would be predominately a Brexit campaign and give a new Tory Govt a genuine mandate to leave the EU....if they won.

BubblesBuddy Tue 13-Aug-19 17:36:11

Throughout the Blair years, the EU was barely talked about. It was a topic for the rump of the Conservative Party. What wasn’t really apparent until 10 years ago was the effect of Nigel Farage using divide and rule tactics with lies and veiled hate coming to the fore to drum up support which left the Conservatives very divided. Many conservatives are decent people but the rump has grown and it’s running the party. They jumped on the Brexit bandwaggon to stop the threat of Farage.

It’s very easy to whip people into a frenzy who are jealous, feel they are losing out and are happy to blame others. Hitler and others had a PhD in it. It’s a monumental shame we have such uneducated people who believed the rhetoric and didn’t get the Economics. Plus they were fed easy to understand lies. Now who did that in the 1930s?

If the banks had not been saved, many pension funds would have been down the Swanee not to mention People not getting paid and mortgages being unpaid etc. These banks were rescued for everyone. Again spin said it was for wealthy bankers. It was not. Banks are at the heart of commerce and industry. They cannot fail.

Will we reunite? No. I don’t like this selfish attitude of Brexiteers. It’s gung ho and reckless. We know a couple who voted Leave and we don’t see them these days. They have enough money to be insulated and they only care about themselves. They don’t need us as friends!

BubblesBuddy Tue 13-Aug-19 17:40:20

Remain views on leaving haven’t happened yet. Remind me of the exchange rates right now? What about inflation when imports cost a lot more? That always hits the least well off in society. No one ever saw leaving without a deal as something we would do. Also NI was never discussed. How can people still want Leave now they know the facts? Only because they don’t care, don’t understand or have plenty of money to insulate themselves.

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