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Why do rich people want no deal/ to leave the EU

(70 Posts)
Jimjamjooney Fri 09-Aug-19 17:35:44

I'm not looking to start an argument. I didn't vote in the referendum as I was unsure of which option was for the best and struggle to get my head around everything tbh.

I am aware of the stereotypical reasons some people voted leave (immigration etc.) but I also know lots of well off people who want to leave/ remainers that have changed their minds.

Why do some wealthier people actively want Brexit?

Fragalino Fri 09-Aug-19 18:16:19

Millions of very wealthy people want to remain in the eu.

Lots of wealthy people want to leave the eu.

Millions of poor people want to remain in the eu.

Millions of poor people want to leave the eu.
Ie there is no small enclave of all the richest people j in the UK wanting out.

bellinisurge Fri 09-Aug-19 18:19:30

Google "disaster capitalism ". Jacob ReesMogg's Dad, William, literally wrote a book on it.

SexTrainGlue Fri 09-Aug-19 18:19:39

London is the richest area - voted Remain

I think you're looking at the wrong things. Wales isn't a particularly wealthy part of UK, nor is northern England, nor the traditional Labour voting areas - which are the areas which voted Leave with the biggest margins.

Davespecifico Fri 09-Aug-19 18:19:42

I don’t know why either. Rich Brexiteers, what is your rationale?

MrsTerryPratchett Fri 09-Aug-19 18:27:18

Avoiding the EU's crackdown on tax avoidance? Just a thought. Is there a Venn diagram of people mentioned in the Panama Papers and prominent wealthy leavers?

Because I'd bet it's more circle shaped than not.

Jimjamjooney Fri 09-Aug-19 20:01:47

SexTrainGlue I'm asking specifically about wealthy voters reasons for wanting to leave/ being in favour of a no deal situation.

MrsTerryPratchett that could be a point. However what about those that aren't the wealthy elite? One personal example I have is someone living in a house worth over a million (bought for cheap ages ago then extended), husband works in the finance sector contracting as was made redundant. Wealthy by all means but not hiding money abroad type wealthy.

wigglybeezer Fri 09-Aug-19 20:05:57

The new EU tax avoidance regulations plus disaster capitalism plus deregulation of industry.

bellinisurge Fri 09-Aug-19 20:09:44

Op the kind of rich you're talking about think they are immune from any economic downsides. So they aren't swayed by those arguments.

TheVanguardSix Fri 09-Aug-19 20:10:29

Another good read is Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine. It really helps you to understand how disaster capitalism works and why it dominates our global economic system.
I see Brexit as a total tug-o-war between disaster capitalists (who we're in the firm grip of) and cooler heads (more complex than this, I know, but I don't think I'm far from the truth).

PinoNoir Fri 09-Aug-19 20:19:35

Maybe wealthier people are better educated and believe that like every other union of economically unequal states with ethnically diverse population, EU is doomed (like the Roman Empire, like the British Empire, like the Soviet Union)?

bellinisurge Fri 09-Aug-19 20:22:44

@PinoNoir, interesting you think better education = wealth. I'll tell my bank.😂😂😂😂😂

MeganBacon Fri 09-Aug-19 20:32:08

I'm not sure that wealthy people really are more likely to want Brexit than poor people, but if that is true, I would guess the financial cushion they hold against near term pain allows them to be more far sighted. People who worry about making ends meet this month generally spend less time contemplating nebulous horizon benefits in five or ten years.

MrsTerryPratchett Fri 09-Aug-19 20:48:19

Maybe wealthier people are better educated and believe that like every other union of economically unequal states with ethnically diverse population, EU is doomed (like the Roman Empire, like the British Empire, like the Soviet Union)?

And the United States? One can hope.

Jimjamjooney Fri 09-Aug-19 20:51:10

Thanks to those that have mentioned disaster capitalism. I dont know what this is but I will read about it to try and educate myself.

MeganBacon I'm not saying wealthy people are more likely to choose brexit. I'm asking about the reasons (of the wealthy brexiteers) behind supporting brexit. You mentioned about cushioning from any immediate downturn. This is true, but what are the long term gains that they are envisioning?

bellinisurge the good old I'm alright Jack grin

Lilyrose90 Fri 09-Aug-19 20:52:56

The wealthier people I know want to stay in the EU

MrsTerryPratchett Fri 09-Aug-19 20:59:18

Disaster capitalism is interesting. From carpetbaggers in America to the Asian financial crisis where there a theory that currency speculators hastened the crash.

If you have the resources to buy in crisis and wait out issues, speculate on necessities and don't give a tiny crap about your fellow humans, it's a great time to be alive! Profiteering is alive and well.

CherryPavlova Fri 09-Aug-19 21:01:28

I think there’s a difference between the very, very rich (who may well have voted leave) and the quite rich who were the intelligentsia decried by Farage. They ‘typically north London set’ were generally remain.

Around here farmers voted leave because they’ve been promised less regulation and ongoing subsidies.
Very, very rich aren’t bothered about the pound crashing; their capital is held abroad and they can profit from others losses. They are mortgage free. They have numerous houses here and in Europe.
The quite well off generally voted remain, didn’t they?

MrsTerryPratchett Fri 09-Aug-19 21:03:58

The wealthy people I know who voted remain are variously retired and wealthy enough to ride it out (their children are livid), super racist and hate Europeans (although I understand from threads here that those people don't exist, except at my family events) and that's it.

Racist or old and wealthy enough not to have to face a single consequence.

MeganBacon Fri 09-Aug-19 21:30:28

@Jimjamjourney Well certainly there are no short term gains so any gains a Leaver envisages (rich or poor) can only be longer term - the further out into the future you look, the wider the range of possible outcomes. The well off people I know (I don't know really wealthy, just people with successful careers and good all round skill sets) do believe they are building a better future for their kids and the country by voting leave, they are not disaster capitalists voting for selfish reasons. They are mostly bankers/bank directors/a few directors of non-bank corporates, many taken early retirement (some of these are Europeans resident in Europe who didn't have a vote), who are concerned about the future of Europe and the EU. I voted remain and thought the short term risks to UK trade were greater than the longer term risks of being close to the EU, but they thought otherwise.

Jimjamjooney Fri 09-Aug-19 23:08:46

MeganBacon The people I'm thinking of are similar to those you mentioned. I've read different soundbites as to some of the problems about remaining in the EU so I have a vague idea, but did any of your friends give you specifics as to what they think will improve after the initial crash?

Not being goady, I'm lucky that my job should remain stable and I should be able to survive any downturn, but I'm trying to understand what long term benefits there might be.

Jimjamjooney Fri 09-Aug-19 23:11:57

For example with banker types, avoiding new EU legislation may make it easier to conduct business. However if we're tanking , surely there won't be many wanting to conduct business here (very simplistic obviously). I guess there's still the super wealthy who hedge fund in the UK and they'd still need services?

MintChocAddict Fri 09-Aug-19 23:18:16

I agree with your observation OP as the wealthier people I know are much more relaxed about a no deal Brexit.
They have far less to lose and can buy themselves out of trouble if need be. And in some cases would probably benefit financially. It's the old looking after number one I'm afraid.

Sashkin Sat 10-Aug-19 00:36:41

1. There's a lot of money to be made shorting the pound/buying up cheap UK assets in the ensuing fire sale.

2. There people often have their money in overseas tax havens so make no difference to them if our economy tanks. They are independently wealthy so no job loss worries.

4. Post Brexit they are hoping to get rid of a lot of EU worker protections - for example I live in Canada and we get two weeks of annual leave, no paid sick leave, and no paid maternity pay. Some people get more, but it is down to individual employer benevolence. So if you are an employer you could save a lot of money in your wage bill. Potential employees are also likely to be pretty desperate post-Brexit, and will take whatever they are given.

5. A lot of politicians have talked about turning the UK into a tax haven “like Singapore” - ie a haven for money laundering and tax evasion, with an underclass of absolutely desperate semi-slave workers in the hinterlands. Again, if you look at the super-rich in Singapore (Crazy Rich Asians), you can see why this appeals to the rich over here.

6. Best yet, I met an elderly posh Hampstead patient (post-ref, pre- me moving to Canada) who thought Brexit would mean his careers were a) not foreign, and b) not “common” - basically he was hoping that nice middle class women would be so impoverished and desperate for money that they would be happy to accept a min wage zero-hours contract. He specifically said he’d rather his careers were university-educated. So basically some rich people are after a better class of staff, they want to eradicate the middle classes and have us return to being their serfs.

Obviously nobody holds all of those views simultaneously, but the gist is that the upper class think we’re too uppity and need to be taught to know our places. Think 19th century mill workers.

MeganBacon Sat 10-Aug-19 01:12:17

Jimjamjooney. No-one mentioned anything about different legislation. We had a big meet up about six weeks ago over a weekend and the conversations were all about what's wrong with the EU and avoiding the bad things that might happen, with nothing really said at all about any good things that might happen. No-one had an eye on personally making any money.

Tengel Sat 10-Aug-19 01:58:50

Brexit has already happened for many people running large businesses.

No deal plans and contingencies we're ready in March and they've prepared for new ways of working since 2016.

This is why they are relaxed. Many know it won't affect them or be negative at all.

The City, Banks, large industrial companies, investors and others are all ready,

The problem lies with the politicians whose delay and chaotic management of the process has sapped confidence, the problem is not brexit itself.

Jimjamjooney Sat 10-Aug-19 09:27:05

Sashkin thank you for a definitive list. I can understand buying up cheap assets. It's scary thinking about worker protections being removed, especially with Bojo as PM. That elderly patient will be in for a surprise I think!

MeganBacon thank you for your patience. It's reminds me a little of when remainers get frustrated at leavers not necessarily being able to come up with future positives but stating what they think is wrong with the EU.

Jimjamjooney Sat 10-Aug-19 09:30:19

Tengel I never considered this view point but it makes absolute sense, it's almost reassuring in a way. Unlike our politicians. It's childish in a way, but I do wish someone would come into power who actually seems to care about what happens to the people of this country and who we can put our faith in.

kjhkj Sat 10-Aug-19 09:48:24

I would probably be considered "rich" by many and certainly we have a high income (two six figure incomes) and a good standard of living. Most of our friends are in a similar position and are well educated, read about current affairs and economic issues and have thought it through. The vast majority do not want brexit. Those who did vote to leave (2 that I know of) work in the NHS and admit now they were short sighted. They are also in the fortunate "jobs for life" category, being hospital consultants/surgeons. I also know two older retired people who voted to leave. Both are labour voters, one a labour party member. They both voted to leave because "it was good before" hmm idiots

But the reality is that those with higher incomes can cope with food, energy and transportation costs doubling. Its annoying but they are not as likely to be in the position where they can't afford to buy the food that is available. I think that leads to a degree of complacency. I have stockpiled food since I think there will be shortages and I don't want the hassle and worry but I have friends (again NHS consultants with guaranteed jobs) who just laugh and say if they had to pay four times as much for food for a few months it wouldn't be the end of the world for them.

The super rich you are referring to such as the Jacob Rees Moggs of the world want to swoop in and buy property and other assets and want the power that comes from selling the masses a bunch of lies.

Linseedlill Sat 10-Aug-19 09:56:12

Because like Dyson said, outside of the "constraints" of EU employee legislation, employers can enjoy a "more flexible employment market" which basically means workers will have fewer rights, which in turn means more profits for the managers and owners and banks.

And because the rich are comfortable enough to withstand the disruption! Most investment banks have moved to new premises in other countries (some within the EU) and in the short term, a crisis of this sort will be of benefit to some, ie there will be a flurry of trades by fund managers hoping to benefit from the volatility of the interest rates, foreign exchange markets and credit spreads, especially if we crash out with no deal.

I think the problem is very much Brexit itself. Parliament has no mandate for a no deal. For the ordinary man and woman on the street, the ramifications of leaving the EU will not suddenly end on 31st October, that is the start date for a decade of disruption.

berlinbabylon Mon 12-Aug-19 13:38:49

Having a bonfire of workers' rights was a big reason I think. If they don't have to pay their workers a living wage, and can hire and fire at will, it makes them more profitable.

Although to be fair I think Amazon said it thought the UK should remain, and they are not exactly known for either paying tax or protecting workers' rights. So it doesn't always follow.

Mistigri Mon 12-Aug-19 14:42:02

The City, Banks, large industrial companies, investors and others are all ready,

I work in planning for a large industrial company and tbh I see no clear evidence of readiness.

My experience is that Brexit planners in industry often aren't people with particular expertise, they are just regular managers seconded to a committee with limited clout. So Brexit preparations are mainly dependent upon people at board level being sufficiently switched on to drive big decisions, I suspect they probably are pretty clued up in some sectors (pharma, big car companies); much less so in others.

BogglesGoggles Mon 12-Aug-19 14:46:57

EU stifles economic growth/generally quite illiberal and wealthy people like the freedom that comes with wealth and want more of it.

Mistigri Mon 12-Aug-19 14:52:21

The EU enables ordinary people to move for work or retirement.

The rich do not need the EU to enjoy freedom of movement.

frozendaisy Mon 12-Aug-19 15:54:55

Some very rich trade against currencies - not sure how but would like to find out as it can make a fair bit of easy money if you do it right

AquaPris Mon 12-Aug-19 16:04:45

They don't - rich men are lying and saying they want no deal to manipulate the working class leavers into voting them into power. Boris for example was always pro EU until it appeared the only way he'd claw his way into power was by fronting Leave.

Why would any rich people want to limit their business options, raise tax on their imports or possibly lose rights on their properties in other EU countries?

Helmetbymidnight Mon 12-Aug-19 18:37:48

the 'comfortably off' property owning over 60s, who constitute masses of leave voters think they can take the economic hit. the ones i know say things like how great it will be to have seasonal veg again/people are too fat etc etc.

the super-rich - like jrm, boris, farage, banks etc etc will do/already are doing well out of brexit- tax avoidance, money overseas, disaster capitalism, fewer worker protections, fewer environmental protections = win, win, win.

jasjas1973 Mon 12-Aug-19 19:50:10

Why would any rich people want to limit their business options, raise tax on their imports or possibly lose rights on their properties in other EU countries?

For the super rich, as opposed to 'boomers, will make so much more money out of dollar investment earnings, that it will off-set any extra spending in Europe.
Should things go really bad here, they can buy EU residency (or anywhere else for that matter) such as the Golden Visa Scheme in Portugal.

BubblesBuddy Mon 12-Aug-19 23:32:45

I’m over 60 and DH and i were always Remain and still are. We are comfortably off with several homes and property plus other investments but: we do realise what a no deal and Brexit could mean to others. Our holiday exchange rate is now awful, but it won’t stop us doing anything. We are still able to help our DDs out financially and I don’t think our world will grind to a halt. I think others less fortunate really will notice price rises. The £/$ exchange rate will make petrol more expensive soon. We import more than we export.

I’m not so mean, stupid and callous as to just think about us. So many will be worse off and I think staying in could have been a platform for change. The rhetoric has overtaken common sense and the nation has been bullied by populist politicians for whom no consequence of Brexit will matter one jot. They are immune. They only care about blaming the EU. After Brexit, everyone needs to blame them!

Oranginna Mon 12-Aug-19 23:51:36

The well off educated leavers I know want Brexit because they fear "ever closer union" in an EU where they believe the executive are unelected and unaccountable and therefore potentially dangerous. They think the EU leadership makes poor decisions and the whole project will go pear shaped. So they want the UK to be independent before that happens. They want the best for their country, just like remainers do. They just see things differently.

Linseedlill Tue 13-Aug-19 01:34:37

Unelected and unaccountable and therefore potentially dangerous like Dominic Cummings you mean?

MrsTerryPratchett Tue 13-Aug-19 02:12:07

Unelected and unaccountable and therefore potentially dangerous like Dominic Cummings you mean?

And the Head of State. And all those people in the House of Lords. You can add 'unrepresentative' to the list for them.

Helmetbymidnight Tue 13-Aug-19 06:29:34

Unelected and unaccountable and therefore potentially dangerous like Dominic Cummings you mean?

and boris perhaps? the weird thing is they dont have a word to say about that...

and the fact that wto rules will mean less control or 'sovreignty' as i think they mean.

or that subsequent trade deals will all require a level of compromise or 'giving up of independence' too.

bubbles, totally appreciate not all boomers voted leave, absolutely, but the stats say they were the largest group.

Oranginna Tue 13-Aug-19 06:54:29

Unelected and unaccountable and therefore potentially dangerous like Dominic Cummings you mean? and boris perhaps? the weird thing is they dont have a word to say about that...

Because they understand how Boris was elected ... by the Tory party members. And they know that Boris will have to face a general election soon. If people don't like what he is doing, he will be voted out and Cummings will go with him.

In contrast, they don't know how Ursula von der Leyen was elected or how she can be voted out. They don't understand the system. They don't understand how Greece was allowed to join the Euro and then be bankrupted or why Dieselgate was covered up for so long or why Angela Merkel's decision to open all borders was imposed on unwilling countries. They don't trust the EU to make good decisions for the UK because they don't believe the leadership is accountable to us and they don't know how they can vote them out.

Helmetbymidnight Tue 13-Aug-19 07:07:02

maybe they should study it a bit more then?

its weird that they should think a no deal brexit is going to lead to greater accountability or sovreignty, isnt it? it means a massive loss of control, masses of compromises and a huge loss of status. our trade deals will be made from the basis of desparation and will be much poorer/give up control for it - its bizarre that doesnt concern them at all, isnt it?

Helmetbymidnight Tue 13-Aug-19 07:09:58

its extraordinary logic when you think about it- i dont like this system so im going to clamour for a system much worse and with much less control, which will bleed my country dry and threaten gfa etc- but hey. at least its not the EU.

berlinbabylon Tue 13-Aug-19 08:18:00

people are too fat etc etc

well they're right, but Brexit is a bit extreme a measure for dealing with that. Investing in cycling and public transport, disincentivise car use, and stopping sales promotions on junk food might help more.

it means a massive loss of control

Yes, EU laws that we influence are terrible, WTO rules that we largely don't, are great.

People are very strange.

ChardonnaysPrettySister Tue 13-Aug-19 08:21:01

Avoiding the EU's crackdown on tax avoidance? Just a thought. Is there a Venn diagram of people mentioned in the Panama Papers and prominent wealthy leavers?

Lots of wealthy people have relocated to Portugal, which is part of the EU, so can’t be that.

Mistigri Tue 13-Aug-19 08:31:18

The error being made is thinking that all rich people have the same motives and interests.

Age, financial interests, business interests and ideological leaning also matter.

jasjas1973 Tue 13-Aug-19 08:49:22

Oranginna

If they are well off and well educated, how on earth don't they understand how the EU commission president is elected? its not rocket science! or believe the rubbish that the EU was responsible for car emissions scandal.

Sounds like they are rich but dim.

Dieselgate was covered up by the car companies themselves, not the EU, rules set in Brussels were supposed to be enforced by national bodies, who colluded with the manufactures/governments... it was the EU that has changed the rules so this shouldn't happen again....but even then, the member states have managed to water down some of the EP proposals sad

Yet another reason why the wealthy don't want the EU, they often shine a light on poor practice, the most recent, tax evasion.

Helmetbymidnight Tue 13-Aug-19 08:53:40

nigel lawson lives in france, farages kids have eu passports <shrug> no one ever said wealthy brexiteering elites werent hypocrites.

Helmetbymidnight Tue 13-Aug-19 08:59:18

i know lots of comfortably off brexiteers, not that many well educated ones.

some no dealbrexit type fella is on twitter this morning: @StanleyisWhite (yup) causing great hilarity with his thick 'fuck academics and scientists, they didnt help us win the war etc.

BubblesBuddy Tue 13-Aug-19 18:03:26

I do appreciate baby boomers were more likely to vote for Brexit but some of us didn’t and appreciated what the EU could do.

Why do we now think we are a superior nation and want to pull up the drawbridge? What’s wrong with working with others? We mostly make our own laws, rule in our own court cases (and win the vast majority that go to the EU courts) and have a sovereign parliament. We are now going to be alone and truly “Little” Britain. Being on the outside looking in is never great and I remember it in the 1960s. We were desperate to join the EU. We wanted to bring our views to the table and be listened to. Our industry was poor back then and we have improved so much by collaborating with others. Yes, there are things we don’t like but that was never a good enough reason to Leave. Too many people were persuaded by simple rhetoric and slogans. It’s shameful how shallow we are.

Helmetbymidnight Wed 14-Aug-19 09:44:11

I do appreciate baby boomers were more likely to vote for Brexit but some of us didn’t and appreciated what the EU could do

yes, when i was on the remain march earlier this year, i was deeply moved by seeing so many older and elderly and disabled people there- the efforts they had made to join was fantastic- testament to their passion.

Sarahlou63 Wed 14-Aug-19 09:51:31

ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/company-tax/anti-tax-avoidance-package/anti-tax-avoidance-directive_en

It's always about the money.

Oranginna Wed 14-Aug-19 12:05:36

No it's not always about the money.

jasjas1973 Wed 14-Aug-19 12:14:14

The only people who can genuinely say that are people with money.

Any leaver who needs to work to pay bills, rent or mortgage will not be quite so keen on brexit if they lose their job as a result of this stupidity.

Fraggling Wed 14-Aug-19 12:28:56

Great thread

I think this

'The new EU tax avoidance regulations plus disaster capitalism plus deregulation of industry.'

MeganBacon Sat 17-Aug-19 10:41:56

I really do not believe that disaster capitalists are out there in any significant number trying to wreck the economy just so they can benefit. If there are one or two of them, they may have the power to do serious damage, but they are still only a few individuals with one vote each, so they were not key to the result.
I do believe the Russians and the US have an interest in seeing the EU weaker so may have been involved behind the scenes - not sure but willing to be convinced.
I think generally wealthy people are just unfettered by the daily stress of making ends meet or keeping the same job, so can afford to think in broader principles with wider horizons and longer timescales.

Helmetbymidnight Sat 17-Aug-19 10:50:40

they dont see it as wrecking the economy - they see it as a better way to run the economy.

and yes, arran banks and other wealthy donors have far far more power than 'one vote' - look into Cambridge analytica.

one thing these debates constantly throw up is naivety. people really need to study politics more or at least open their eyes.

Helmetbymidnight Sat 17-Aug-19 11:02:39

people from hugely privileged backgrounds like jrm, boris, gove, farage, lawson have wider horizons and longer timescales than educated or working people like doctors, scientists, business people, trade unionists academics, civil servants etc?

riiiight.

MeganBacon Sat 17-Aug-19 11:12:52

I was including wealthy people like doctors and successful business people in that group Helmet. Anyone well-off, people with successful careers and high incomes. Perhaps "wealthy" was not the right word because it implies inherited wealth.

Helmetbymidnight Sat 17-Aug-19 11:48:53

yeah, i really dont know what you mean. wealth and education are certainly not interchangeable - and the stats show that wealth was not a key indicator in how people voted. education was. the higher the education the less likely to vote brexit...

MeganBacon Sat 17-Aug-19 12:03:06

There are distinct groups of voters - yes at the bottom end many uneducated people probably swayed the vote because they listened to the rhetoric. This doesn't mean there wasn't more nuanced debate at the higher end of education.
In any case, in your anger you have hijacked the point I was making which is that poor people worry more about the day to day than better off people who can afford the luxury of thinking longer term, etc. A point which I am happy to repeat having lived both situations.

Helmetbymidnight Sat 17-Aug-19 13:24:42

poorer people DO obviously worry more about the day to day than the long term- other than that the point you are trying to make here is unclear -
your post of 10.41 was just nonsense.

MeganBacon Sat 17-Aug-19 13:47:54

*the point you are trying to make here is unclear"
says the person who thinks "riiiight" and "yeah...." is articulate

Helmetbymidnight Sat 17-Aug-19 13:51:16

i dont think its articulate- i just think that apart from when you are stating the bloody obvious 'poorer people worry more about the day to day' you are talking nonsense.

MeganBacon Sat 17-Aug-19 14:09:05

Well thanks for relieving me of my political naivety. I look forward to further enlightenment through your highly articulate posts.

Helmetbymidnight Sat 17-Aug-19 14:17:56

good, as i said, try reading more about cambridge analytica or Aaron banks, farage, cummings, or JRM or disaster capitalism etc etc.

Sarahlou63 Mon 19-Aug-19 15:27:18

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom

Check out who owns the main UK media outlets. Then look at how the anti tax avoidance legislation will affect those owners.

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