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The NI border issue can never be resolved can it?

(459 Posts)
Bearbehind Sun 14-Jul-19 20:39:23

We would have left by now if is wasn’t for the border issue in NI and I genuinely can’t see a positive outcome.

If, 20 years after the GFA, peace is still so fragile a border is incompressible and any other option basically breaks up the union - how can it ever end well?

Clavinova Thu 25-Jul-19 21:09:03

prettybird
But given how obtuse you're being, that's the last time I'll engage with you.I have better things to be doing.

Yes, I see, you've already posted this on the previous page;

^"if you can't understand the point I was making about variable costs, then I really can't be bothered explaining them to you."

Mistigri Thu 25-Jul-19 21:02:33

Northern Ireland that should say.

Mistigri Thu 25-Jul-19 21:02:09

Farms straddle the border, with farmers going back and forth multiple times a day.

Not just farmers. As you say, milk processing is done on an all-island basis, with milk potentially crossing the border several times during the production process. Any Brexit that takes Ireland out of the customs union and single market will disrupt that business model.

Clavinova Thu 25-Jul-19 20:58:49

jasjas1973
You've not read your own link have you?

Yes, I did - which is why I only referred to checks at the border - I might have misunderstood Outsomnia though - I thought her comment 'any semblance of a border' was referring to possible violence at checkpoints.

Isthisafreename Thu 25-Jul-19 20:57:01

Any comment on the DUP stance in all this, when they know that many of their voters are successful farmers all exporting to ROI, milk products especially.

This us a very simplistic view of what happens. The dairy industry is effectively all-Ireland. For example, raw milk goes south to be processed. Cream from that milk goes north to be used to make baileys. Farms straddle the border, with farmers going back and forth multiple times a day.

prettybird Thu 25-Jul-19 20:50:31

Of course I do, we're a net contributor and I've never denied that confused: but it's not the UK's fund and the net contribution is no longer the "UK's money" confused.

Since you like links so much, here's are two for you

eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM:2602_3

..and how to apply

ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/en/funding/accessing-funds/#2

But given how obtuse you're being, that's the last time I'll engage with you. I have better things to be doing.

Outsomnia Thu 25-Jul-19 20:36:23

Clavinova,

It is all about perception and upholding the GFA, but the many Brexiteers don't even realise that NI is actually part of the Union, and they don't care either.

Any comment on the DUP stance in all this, when they know that many of their voters are successful farmers all exporting to ROI, milk products especially. They don't care. Because I suspect those most affected are afraid to speak out now. Such is the tinderbox in NI.

The DUP are despicable.

But it might just result in a border poll resulting in a UI. ROI cannot afford to take on NI that is largely funded by Westminster though, not many independent or indigenous industry up there apart from a humungous Civil and Public Sector. And maybe a bit of tourism.

It is very shameful of a country like UK to throw ROI under a bus like this, but I am not surprised.

jasjas1973 Thu 25-Jul-19 20:32:36

You've not read your own link have you?

Clavinova Thu 25-Jul-19 20:27:32

prettybird
I don't think you realised that EU Regional Development Funds etc. were our contributions sent back to us.

Outsomnia
I really fear for NI/ROI if there is any semblance of a border put in place now.

"9 July 2019 The Irish government has again said it will have no new checks at or near the border if there is a no-deal Brexit."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-48929182

Outsomnia Thu 25-Jul-19 19:58:28

The DUP to my mind are pretending to enjoy supporting a No Deal Brexit. Well of course that bunch of money grabbing bigots would.

They know well that NI voted Remain. They know that it will be devastating for NI to leave with no deal, not to mind ROI but they don't care.

Talk about a perfect storm. If DUP were not in a confidence and supply agreement with the Tories, I think an agreement in principle would be made to have the border in the Irish Sea.

No hard border,
No backstop,
And so on.

I think it would have happened by now, and the WA would have been accepted on that basis.

I really fear for NI/ROI if there is any semblance of a border put in place now. But the Tories don't care. They are like a rabid bull, who will destroy anyone in their path to achieve their aim of being better than the EU and defeating them.

Anyway the Summer hiatus is upon us, so time for a bit of calm before the storm.

Whoseagooddoggiethen Thu 25-Jul-19 19:54:03

Not all Irish or Northern Irish people want unification. Ireland is NOT the problem here so please stop using it as the solution. The stupid notion of Brexit is the problem.

willloman Thu 25-Jul-19 19:52:25

Apologies, it seems like I have not read previous, but I have. Argument so diverged from topic I thought I'd redirect.

willloman Thu 25-Jul-19 19:49:31

Yes it can. A united Ireland. Simple.

prettybird Thu 25-Jul-19 19:48:48

That's why I've said that Nicola - who is a savvy operator - may well just leave it to BJ to crash the UK economy confused It's not the way I'd prefer to leave the UK and to her credit, she has been trying to fight for the good of the whole sovereign state (in the absence of any real opposition from Lexiter Corbyn, even though a No deal Brexit would make her point about the madness of English & domination. I'd rather it took longer without the damage to the economies of both England and scotland (and to the GFA sad) - but it is certainly one accelerated route, by which more of the population can see that WM doesn't give a fuck about Scotland except for its oil and whisky revenues sad

As for you not understanding the point about the UK leaving and the effect on the EU budget, if you can't understand the point I was making about variable costs, then I really can't be bothered explaining them to you.

InTheHeatofLisbon Thu 25-Jul-19 19:45:51

Clavinova uh huh, yet Downing Street confidently speak of knowing what the Scottish people want without such proof.

One caller thinks he's a dick. That's about as much of a revelation as someone from the Home Counties rather liking Rees-Mogg.

People have differing opinions. If nobody is scared of that, why not two more referenda?

Indy 2 and Brexit 2.

Only people shitting themselves are the folk who fucked it all up in the first place. And I couldn't give a shiny shite about them.

Clavinova Thu 25-Jul-19 19:28:42

InTheHeatofLisbon

I think the SNP will have to show that there is a demand for indyref2 in Scotland - you can only do that with 'evidence' from polling.

I won't tell you about the caller from Dundee on LBC radio today, dismissing Ian Blackford as an 'embarrassment' (the caller voted 'remain' in the EU referendum by the way).

InTheHeatofLisbon Thu 25-Jul-19 19:00:29

They asked less than 1500 people. Out of a country of 5.5 million. I'm going to guess they structured their target group pretty well too eh?

InTheHeatofLisbon Thu 25-Jul-19 18:59:00

Clavinova I trust polls about as much as I trust Tories.

For a start it might help if they polled members of all the political parties in Scotland. Which they haven't because DP and I have never been polled. Neither has my dad who is a member of a different political party.

So much like the media, question time audiences (why is an Orangeman from Musselburgh in several different audiences yet local people found it impossible to get a ticket when it came to our town?), the HoC and MN, it's easy to make a statement based on what you want to hear.

Let's have the referendum and see what the mood is then eh?

Downing Street has neither the power nor the mandate to prevent Indy 2. Bullshit posturing from the new PM as expected.

Clavinova Thu 25-Jul-19 18:50:14

prettybird
the per capita contribution is relevant, because once the UK (and its 60+ million people are out), the EU no longer needs to help out all those areas that the UK Government ignores.Yes, there's an initial pain in spreading the fixed costs over a smaller base, but the variable costs decrease.

I don't understand what you are saying here - the UK is a net contributor to the EU budget.

the EU no longer needs to help out all those areas that the UK Government ignores.

If you are referring to the regional development funds/social funds etc - this funding is 'recycled' money that we pay into the EU budget - listed under 'capital receipts' and deducted from our gross contributions - an extra £4.3bn for 2017 (if I remember correctly) - that's £4.3bn that we paid into the EU budget in addition to our net contribution of £8bn.

InTheHeatofLisbon
These polls don't look very good for indyref2;
whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/f-there-was-a-referendum-tomorrow-with-the-question-should-scotland-remain-in-t

InTheHeatofLisbon Thu 25-Jul-19 18:49:43

Hang on a minute til my sides split.

Oh wait......

The source is one I don't remember. I may well be wrong, and am happy to admit that.

You on the other hand, don't appear to have stated any sources?

Oh and .gov is not a source, it's propaganda.

Wonder how much sway he'll have without fishing waters and oil to bargain with eh?

And removing Trident.

EmeraldIsle2016 Thu 25-Jul-19 17:45:22

I read that statistic and it was backed up

And the source is?

Hope you don’t say

Salmon or Sturgeon. Everything they say is fishy.

InTheHeatofLisbon Thu 25-Jul-19 17:38:25

Your numbers exclude oil, renewable energy and fishing waters.

Funny that, so do Westminster's.

Stats only tell a limited story. They can be used to make a point without the whole picture.

I read that statistic and it was backed up.

Either way, it's a moot point because Scotland won't be lumped in with England for much longer.

EmeraldIsle2016 Thu 25-Jul-19 17:14:00

Aye? 50% of the revenue from export tax in the UK comes from us

Scotland exports £80 Billion. 60% of that is other parts of UK, £48 billion. That leaves £32 Billion exported outside UK.

UK exports £616 Billion. How can the export tax revenue on £32 Billion be 50% of the export tax revenue on £616 Billion? Does not sound possible.

is not a reason to go back on promises that won you a vote

That’s politicians around the World. How many times do promises made in manifestos ever appear? Brexit is a good example. Both labour and conservatives promised in 2017 general election to deliver the referendum result by 29 March 2019. Didn’t happen.

Oblomov19 Thu 25-Jul-19 16:59:20

Ashamed to say I never knew anything about the GFA pre this Brexit shambles.

InTheHeatofLisbon Thu 25-Jul-19 16:18:29

That was Cameron being a remain supporter. He never dream that UK would vote Leave EU

So what?

Get the feeling that is based on Cameron’s lie about EU membership as opposed to economic benefits? 60% of Scotland exports is to other parts of UK.

Aye? 50% of the revenue from export tax in the UK comes from us.

Leave supporters often say same about EU in that EU would not object to UK leaving if they had nothing to lose. Whereas remain supporters think it is a poor argument.

Because the circumstances are entirely different. For a start the EU didn't make false promises to entice us to stay, they don't need us more than we need them (contrary to the bullshit spouted by Leave) and actually, they weren't involved in the campaigns.

But hey, keep twisting soundbites to suit your agenda without actually considering facts.

It's not the same situation, and not thinking it would ever happen is not a reason to go back on promises that won you a vote.

But hey, we're all still waiting for the NHS bus to be real so.......

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