Page 2 | The NI border issue can never be resolved can it?

(459 Posts)
Bearbehind Sun 14-Jul-19 20:39:23

We would have left by now if is wasn’t for the border issue in NI and I genuinely can’t see a positive outcome.

If, 20 years after the GFA, peace is still so fragile a border is incompressible and any other option basically breaks up the union - how can it ever end well?

OP’s posts: |
MirandaGoshawk Sun 14-Jul-19 22:30:23

A lot of good sense being talked here. The politicians who said leaving would be easy are either ignorant or stupid. I can't see a practical solution.

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 14-Jul-19 22:30:42

Sinn Fein, a historically anti-EU party didn't want to do an about face in the run up to the Referendum, so didn't campaign or mobilise their voters to vote Remain. Some Republicans voted Leave to force a Border Poll. The DUP were very vocally Leave and got their voters to turn out promising them whatever shit the DUP promise their voters. However neither party actually thought the vote would go the way it did.

Add to that, all Leave voters here had the Irish citizenship thing to fall back on and they have. Even our DUP politicians applied for Irish passports post Brexit.hmm

TooTrueToBeGood Sun 14-Jul-19 22:35:00

This is UK history, why are we not teaching it?

Probably because it doesn't paint us in a very good light. Centuries of cultural, if not actual, genocide and oppression is not exactly something to be proud of. Much easier to focus the public's attention on the actions of a murderous few and promote the assumption that if terrorism is used to further a cause then the cause itself has no validity. Easier also to conveniently gloss over the fact that terrorism was employed by both sides and indeed by the state itself.

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Sun 14-Jul-19 22:43:37

Bits of it used to be on the A level history syllabus. Although that was several revisions ago. Not sure if it’s still an option.

HateIsNotGood Sun 14-Jul-19 22:59:37

It's disgusting that the RoI/NI border has become THE issue that Brexit is governed by. I agree with TooGood - the difficulties are well-entrenched and pre-date EU, in all its forms. The EU didn't create GFA, they were merely party to it with RoI and UK membership creating the mechanism to allow it in a 'legal' form.

The USA stomping on Noraid, and therefore IRA funding, was the essential force de majeure. As far as I am concerned, the Border should be 'out of bounds' in the Brexit process.

It's so non-EU to worsen the situation by making it a Brexit issue - throwing all the people in the green isle under the EU Bus - because it's the most precious toy they can throw out of their pram. Horrible, disgusting behaviour like a tantrumming child picking up the most precious thing in the house and threatening to smash it if Mummy does give them their own way.

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 14-Jul-19 23:03:48

As far as I am concerned, the Border should be 'out of bounds' in the Brexit process.
What does you mean?confused

DtPeabodysLoosePants Sun 14-Jul-19 23:07:21

How can it be out of bounds if it will be the land border between the UK and the EU and therefore requires a physical border? NI would have to be given some kind of special status for there not to be a border otherwise why does NI/Ireland get treated differently to any other EU/non-EU border?

HateIsNotGood Sun 14-Jul-19 23:13:07

I mean exactly as I said - the Border should be 'sorted' by the people who are 'sorting' it now - the RoI/NI/UK. There isn't currently an EU border-force and the UN (thankfully) have no need to be there. So, is there any particular reason that we can't keep it a peaceful, open border irrespective of Brexit?

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Sun 14-Jul-19 23:15:39

I’m fairly certain that the Irish don’t feel like they’re being thrown under a bus here. Or at least not by the EU.

The EU are acting on behalf of the Irish government and it’s citizens, in order to protect them. It isn’t the fault of NI or Ireland that the U.K. voted to leave without carefully considering the consequences.

HateIsNotGood Sun 14-Jul-19 23:19:59

There are many reasons in various rulebooks that state keeping an open border between RoI/NI transgresses some rule or another if Brexit were to happen. None of these sets of rules really have maintaining the Peace at their heart - so if the existing sets of rules don't allow for that, why is it so impossible to create a new set of rules that does put Peace in the Green Isle at it's heart.

Again the EU can be a party to signing up to these new rules, similar to their role in GFA.

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 14-Jul-19 23:21:04

One reason is that many people who voted Leave, did so to "take back control of our borders", they're going to be pissed that the land border with the EU is an open, free for all.

Another is International trade. Is the UK not going to apply safety standards or duty on goods coming into the country?

DtPeabodysLoosePants Sun 14-Jul-19 23:22:17

I've either forgotten or missed this bit but when did the hard border appear and what was the arrangement before? I'm too tired to figure out the dates in my head of how the EU formed to include the UK, and Ireland and how the border worked in that.

Eyewhisker Sun 14-Jul-19 23:23:02

Clay - agreed. The EU has Ireland’s back and that is hugely popular in both RoI and for a large part of NI. The EU must stand up for small countries and not allow the UK to force Ireland out of the EU against its will.

HateIsNotGood Sun 14-Jul-19 23:23:07

Rufus I'm also fairly certain that the people of RoI are more than capable of speaking for themselves, rather than be 'hobbled' by their choice of words, nor be directed by the EU on how to speak them.

Eyewhisker Sun 14-Jul-19 23:25:29

Hate - we’re looking forward to hearing your rules.

The EU/Ireland have a solution. All must stay unchanged and they’re happy to accept any solution that does that. In the event one can’t be found, there’s a customs border in the Irish sea, just like the current arrangements for some goods. Not a big deal.

Eyewhisker Sun 14-Jul-19 23:27:40

Hate - you ha e things totally the wrong way round. RoI is staying what they want and the EU is working collectively to implement it. This gives ROI enormous leverage against the UK, in stark contrast to the historical position. There is no way Ireland would give that up.

HateIsNotGood Sun 14-Jul-19 23:29:49

A year or 2 before the Referendum was a glint in Cameron's eye, the EU were making noises about how unfair the 'special FOM' arrangements between the RoI/UK were (these predated the EU) and that they should be abolished to obtain 'parity' betweenall EU Members. I thought then that the EU didn't have much of an understanding and their actions since further substantiate my view.

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 14-Jul-19 23:31:05

Hate, at the minute the UK and ROI are both members of the same trading bloc, therefore they don't need a border force. The UK have voted to Leave that trading bloc in order to apply their own rules and regulations to people and products entering the country.

HateIsNotGood Sun 14-Jul-19 23:40:39

Eye - why does the RoI need any "leverage against the UK"? And are you saying there's an "historical position" that needs "contrasting"? If so, that sounds like there's some unresolved grieviances going on.

So, that is why I say, sod rule books, the 'status quo' seems to be working thus far, if the UK wants to leave the EU that should be fine and if a separate Rule Book needs to be made to keep the Border 'status quo' then we should write one to suit that.

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 14-Jul-19 23:44:47

If the 'status quo' seems to be working thus far, why Leave at all? What would change?

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Sun 14-Jul-19 23:50:11

Do you think all the other countries we might want to trade with when we’re out of the EU are going to agree to that special rule book?

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 14-Jul-19 23:54:14

if the UK wants to leave the EU that should be fine and if a separate Rule Book needs to be made to keep the Border 'status quo' then we should write one to suit that.
How does ^^ differ from the Backstop (which was rejected by parliament) Hate?

HateIsNotGood Sun 14-Jul-19 23:58:34

Dione there are many reasons that the UK electorate voted to Leave - very few people brought up that the RoI/NI border might be a 'difficult' issue, although Theresa May did, prior to the Referendum. And look what happened to her - a political 'knee-capping'.

The crux of it could be - that it's too difficult so the UK can't leave the EU. Then is that really fair to the people on the mainland - that they can't leave the EU because of the minority in NI? Maybe that could be the best (if not right) approach.

But then there is another view too - for all my nearly 6 decades of life - it is quite incomprehensible to the vast majority of people that live on the mainlaand that anyone on the Green Isle would actually want to and kill each other over whatever differences they have, as a normality. The Scots and English gave that up as a bad thing to do centuries ago.

So tell me why, people that are happy to kill as an immediate resort should dictate to those that prefer to insult, yet not killeach other?

DioneTheDiabolist Mon 15-Jul-19 00:10:10

The British government have been happy to kill as an immediate resort, and were the ones who brought us to Brexit, perhaps you should ask them Hate.

Your ignorance regarding NI is breathtaking and disgusting.envy

Isthisafreename Mon 15-Jul-19 00:12:36

@HateIsNotGood - I'm Irish and the only reasonable response I can come up with to your posts is to ask: Are you on glue?

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