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Just how exactly are we going to 'bring the country back together'?

(399 Posts)
KennDodd Fri 05-Jul-19 21:44:07

Both candidates for PM have claimed they can do this. I heard a Tory party member interviewed on the radio saying that the best way to do this was a 'no deal/WTO/crash out because we'll all be in it together and it'll be like the war'.
I don't know how these wounds are going to heal.

bellinisurge Fri 05-Jul-19 21:48:18

Agree a border in the sea. That's the "alternative arrangement " to the WA.

Bearbehind Fri 05-Jul-19 21:57:24

A border in the sea won’t bring the country back together - quite the opposite.

Scotland will be off next and the United Kingdom will be far from United anymore.

It’s going to take several generations to repair this damage. More still if no deal happens.

Jsmith99 Fri 05-Jul-19 22:01:28

Leave won because the over 65s, who do not have a stake in the country’s future, voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, so revoke A50 and just wait for natural demographic change to entrench a solid majority for Remain.

Problem solved wink

Ohdearthefootball Fri 05-Jul-19 22:02:03

We aren't going to is the blunt answer to the question sadly

Dontlickthetrolley Fri 05-Jul-19 22:04:13

Don't think it'll happen in my life

ThereWillBeAdequateFood Fri 05-Jul-19 22:07:53

I don’t think anyone can bring the country back together.

Brexit seems to have split the country into authoritarians and liberals. In the past there were plenty of authoritarian leaning people and liberal leaning people in both the Tory and Labour parties.

I don’t see a way out of this. And there’s absolutely no hope of that damned lier Johnson or Hunt bringing people together.

ATrampsVest Fri 05-Jul-19 22:11:51

Soft Brexit with CU + SM. Achieves the referendum result whilst inflicting the least amount of damage.

kalinkafoxtrot45 Fri 05-Jul-19 22:13:18

Can’t be done. That’s the sad truth.

Songsofexperience Fri 05-Jul-19 22:15:58

no deal/WTO/crash out because we'll all be in it together and it'll be like the war

It takes a particular kind of idiot to say something like that! The war was not self inflicted!
One half of the country will keep on blaming the other. No deal will only make this thing more and more toxic.

Songsofexperience Fri 05-Jul-19 22:18:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lonelycrab Fri 05-Jul-19 22:19:08

Atrampsvest that won’t alter Freedom of movement though.

I think as long as there is a vacuum in the centre, politically, we are fucked. Someone likeable, and intelligent whose not mental would be a start. Shouldn’t be too much to ask in this day and age, shirley?hmm

Bearbehind Fri 05-Jul-19 22:19:24

In theory a people’s vote should be the least destructive way out of this mess but, whilst I think Remain would win because there’s enough people who’ve seen the damage this is going to cause, there’s still way too many headbangers to make this go away.

ragged Fri 05-Jul-19 22:37:17

"Don't think it'll happen in my life"

^ That's what I go with. My skin is starting to crawl when I hear BJ speak.

Peregrina Fri 05-Jul-19 22:43:28

no deal/WTO/crash out because we'll all be in it together and it'll be like the war

Which evil dictatorship are we fighting, or are you talking of Concentration camps for the 'undesirables'?

Think of the bitterness that there still is between the opposing sides after the Spanish Civil War. Beginning to dissipate now perhaps as the generations which fought each other are dying out.

I think it's too soon for a 'peoples vote' to be effective - there would need to be a very clear majority, which there isn't yet. We would also have to have very strict rules about the claims which could be made, so no more Boris Johnson promises on a bus, which turned out not to be promises.

KennDodd Fri 05-Jul-19 22:47:41

I also think the analogy about the war is particularly stupid. During the war we were all on the same side.

I suppose one ray of hope could be if Brexit did end up delivering the sunlit upland and fabulous riches for us all as promised. I think we can just about wright that off though and even if it did we would still lose our rights as EU citizens and millions of people are going to be angry about that.

KennDodd Fri 05-Jul-19 22:51:30

I'm 50, before 2016 I don't think I had ever had a single conversation with anybody about the EU. I've heard it reported that before the referendum 4% of people listed the EU as an important issue.

Oakenbeach Fri 05-Jul-19 22:52:37

It takes a particular kind of idiot to say something like that! The war was not self inflicted!

Indeed, it is idiotically stupid.... Why not go the whole hog and send up planes to bomb us whilst we scuttle into bomb shelters!

tobee Fri 05-Jul-19 22:55:37

A quick look at wiki tells me that 67,200 civilians died in the UK during World War II. Is this something we should aspire to then?

Peregrina Fri 05-Jul-19 23:04:07

Not only that, it wasn't all hunky dory during the war - there were black marketeers making a nice profit. My grandmother used to talk of a butcher who was known as a Little Hitler. After the war, she never crossed the door of his shop again.

Then losing everything when you were bombed out, losing loved ones?

KennDodd - I don't think I have heard any conversations about the EU either, and I am 68. Now suddenly the trueBeLeavers are experts about the WTO and the ECJ which they are against, and in 90% of cases give the impression of knowing F All about either.

Jsmith99 Fri 05-Jul-19 23:09:21

I'm 50, before 2016 I don't think I had ever had a single conversation with anybody about the EU. I've heard it reported that before the referendum 4% of people listed the EU as an important issue.

Exactly.

The whole point and purpose of the referendum was to settle an internal argument within the Conservative party and to placate a handful of powerful media barons.

KennDodd Fri 05-Jul-19 23:12:35

And the person interviewed who made the war comment has a vote on who should be PM.

tobee Fri 05-Jul-19 23:25:25

My mil, who was born in 1938, was astonished and disbelieving when I talked about the fact plenty of serial killers, black marketeers, looters, thieves etc thrived during the war. She truly believed the propaganda that everyone pulled together in the war. There was no crime.

Being seven when the war ended, and those who were young just after the war would have had listened to lots of talk about the blitz spirit while they were growing up. I suppose it was because people were suffering from rationing and housing shortages etc for so long afterwards, to remind people it was all for a good reason.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 03:56:47

Leave won because the over 65s, who do not have a stake in the country’s future, voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, so revoke A50 and just wait for natural demographic change to entrench a solid majority for Remain

UK population is aging, not getting younger. Look it up on the ONS (Office National Statistics)

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 03:59:55

In theory a people’s vote That was the 23 June 2016 referendum

Brexit Party is second in the polls

OralBElectricToothbrush Sat 06-Jul-19 04:04:11

My mil, who was born in 1938, was astonished and disbelieving when I talked about the fact plenty of serial killers, black marketeers, looters, thieves etc thrived during the war. She truly believed the propaganda that everyone pulled together in the war. There was no crime.

It was like a giant party for organised crime. Rape and murder were common, too.

Spudlet Sat 06-Jul-19 04:24:55

I red the autobiography of a Home Office pathologist who worked during (and after) the war. He talked about at least one serial killer case during the blackout. He also said that when he was post morteming women he believed to have been prostitutes, his attitude was one of ‘no great loss to the world’ sad

But sure, sure, it was a golden age. As long as you made sure not to be a woman, poor, any ethnicity other than white, heterosexual, able-bodied and generally healthy, that is. hmm

I don’t know how we heal the wounds this debacle has left us with, but Johnson sure as hell won’t be able to, and Hunt is no better, he’s just got neater hair.

Peregrina Sat 06-Jul-19 07:19:31

He also said that when he was post morteming women he believed to have been prostitutes, his attitude was one of ‘no great loss to the world’

An attitude which still prevailed when the Yorkshire ripper was busy.

As for the Black Market - Mrs Thatcher said that one Christmas for dinner they had cold meat, potatoes and lettuce. My late DF (no fan of Thatcher) immediately said that her Father must have got the lettuce on the Black Market because in December they had to be grown under glass in the UK. The only people who had the fuel to heat greenhouses in the winter were the American airbases, of which there were a lot in Lincolnshire, and they were not in the business of market gardening for the UK.

Democracy got suspended during the War - General Elections were cancelled and didn't happen until just after VE day. DF didn't get to vote until he was 28 as a result. On the other hand, Parliament didn't seem to be totally paralysed like now and some major legislation like the 1944 Education Act was passed.

But to go back to now and how to heal the wounds - after the war it was time really, my DP's used to go on and on about the war and it took until about 1960 for them to lay it to rest. In about 1960 we seemed to have turned a corner - new things started appearing in shops. ITV started up in the late 50's (in areas outside London) so people started getting televisions.

So the sixties seemed a bit of a golden age - or was it because I was a teenager and old enough to enjoy those times?

Quellium Sat 06-Jul-19 07:28:06

People who think we will all pull together are seriously deluded.

I'm the event of No Deal, who is going to thank the Leave side for a serious and brutal change in living standards, that they didn't vote for and have spent 3 yrs warning about?

Are you really going to pull together with those people? I know exactly who has spent the last 3 yrs spouting Leave bollocks, so I'll know who they are.

No, I don't expect the rift to heal before I die. I'm 43. (Hopefully not going for a while!).

All of this has made me realise how much I don't really care to have anything to do with those people anymore anyway. Can't see why I'd give up my ethics and morals to change my mind and be best buds with them after all they've said.

Quellium Sat 06-Jul-19 07:29:11

^ So I suppose there is a benefit to Brexit after all! ^

RedSheep73 Sat 06-Jul-19 07:32:39

If this farce has shown anything, it's that there is a massive gulf in this country. Leavers and Remainers oppose each other on practically every issue, not just the EU. Our fundamental calues are completely different. Hell, I don't even want to come together with Leavers - I just want them to Leave.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 07:34:04

Can you imagine post No Deal some people coming on here (assuming we all still have access to it) bleating about whatever food supply problems and job losses have occurred and how it affects them. Pretty sure my first thought will be "did you support No Deal? If so, I don't give a shit about you".
Not exactly a sign of a country being brought together.

tomtom1999xx Sat 06-Jul-19 07:36:21

Quellium
What makes you think leave voters want anything to do with you?

The country is split, but it has been for a very long time.

InTheHeatofLisbon Sat 06-Jul-19 07:39:10

It's not possible I fear. The prominent politicians who have said that Brexit is priority over the Union, the "review" into the Scottish government and whether Westminster thinks it's working, the complete lack of consideration for NI and Scotland (granted NI is facing a far, far more dangerous and frightening future post Brexit), and the Tory elite literally turning on themselves.

The damage is irreversible, and the Union is on borrowed time. I always wanted independence, but not like this. Not at the cost of England and Wales being absolutely fucked economically, politically and in terms of employment.

If you gave me the choice between independence and stopping Brexit, I'd choose the latter. As it stands, I'm just glad that Scotland has an out. I'm busy telling friends and family from England to move up before it happens.

It's horrible, all of it is horrible.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 07:41:19

No deal, whether it is good or bad, affects everyone regardless of how the voted. Still get the impression that remain supporters want Brexit to fail so they can say:

Na Na Na Na Na we told you so.

They all seem to forget that if UK does go down the drain they will be going the same plughole as those that voted leave.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 07:42:11

No Deal doesn't affect you @LifeContinues . You don't live in the UK or the EU.

Iggly Sat 06-Jul-19 07:43:24

Being “like the war” is simplistic nonsense.

It’s ok for the likes of Nigel Farage et al to say it will be like the war. People like them, rich, were shielded from things like rationing. They still supped champagne and ate steak.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 07:44:04

I'm busy telling friends and family from England to move up before it happens

I have a property in Scotland. Wonder what happens if Scotland does achieve independence?

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 07:44:10

I don't want Brexit to fail. I supported WA. But if your little fantasy off in the Far East has Remain voters in that role, go ahead.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 07:45:10

"I have a property in Scotland. " Jacob Rees Mogg type is among us 😂😂😂😂😂😂

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 07:46:08

No Deal doesn't affect you *@LifeContinues . You don't live in the UK or the EU*

Still have family and assets in the UK so if No Deal results in the UK imploding, as remain supporters seem to be sure of, then it would affect.

BuckingFrolics Sat 06-Jul-19 07:47:16

The more useful analogy is the civil war I think. Families not speaking. Chaos. Poverty. Then hey ho 20 years later it all gets undone.

I'm going to get a "I voted Remain, don't blame me" tee shirt printed. I so want something like car badges too so I can decide who to let in.

InTheHeatofLisbon Sat 06-Jul-19 07:47:30

I have a property in Scotland. Wonder what happens if Scotland does achieve independence?

All the current EU member states (including Spain who have changed their position since the Catalan vote) have said they wouldn't block Scotland joining the EU.
So we'd be able to rejoin and have trade agreements etc.

Economically? No idea, but it can't be worse than sticking two fingers up to the rest of the world with Farage and BoJo as poster boys and expecting it to be ok.

noodlenosefraggle Sat 06-Jul-19 07:48:23

I don't think it's going to be possible to bring the country together. We are completely split in two. The people who have the resources and the ability to leave will do. There is no way I'm going to pull together in some bastardised 'blitz spirit' to help people who took my children's opportu ities and security from them in the hope of returning to fairyland

noodlenosefraggle Sat 06-Jul-19 07:55:43

I think saying 'nanananana' is the least of remainers worries. More like we are worried about us all going down the plughole with the people, including friends and family members who caused the mess. Us moa ING about Brexit won't make it fail. I'd be bloody delighted if it all worked out. I have children who only have British passports. They actually have to live here.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 07:57:45

"I'm going to get a "I voted Remain, don't blame me" tee shirt printed. I so want something like car badges too so I can decide who to let in."

I suspect it will be hard to get anyone to admit they voted Leave. Trouble is, thanks to social media posts, I know how pretty much most of the people of my acquaintance voted. I never put my views on social media for just this reason although I assume most people who know me in real life can guess how I voted.

Peregrina Sat 06-Jul-19 07:58:37

I am sure that if countries like Latvia and Lithuania are managing as independent countries, I don't see why Scotland shouldn't. Either boot out the nuclear submarines or charge the English (and I mean English, not English and Welsh) a whopping great fee for renting the space to keep them.

As for people leaving - it will be the educated ones, or those with some get up and go. The ones who would be needed to rebuild the country.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 08:01:11

Contrary to @LifeContinues idea, I would love Brexit to work, even the shitty No Deal version of it we might get. I have never wanted to be more wrong in my life. Having No Dealers say nananana to me would be brilliant. Because it would mean the country wouldn't be in the shit and my daughter's future wouldn't be trashed.
But what if I'm the one that's right?

Quellium Sat 06-Jul-19 08:01:14

TomTom, I don't care if you want anything to do with me. Why would that upset me? I'm better off.

I've had this said to me before. I find it a bit bizarre that you think I'd care what Leave voters think of me. It makes no sense. I want literally nothing to do with the worst kind of Leaver.

EdtheBear Sat 06-Jul-19 08:01:33

To bring the country back together we need a change in labour leadership and a strong labour party.

Scotland independence will be a disaster! Pulling out of Europe hasn't exactly been easy and the UK has only been in it 40 years. Trying to seperate the UK after 300 years will be a complete nightmare and cost businesses thousands.

Scotland traditionally votes labour, but people are put of by them at the moment, mainly because of Corbyn.

Quellium Sat 06-Jul-19 08:01:39

*if you don't want anything to do with me.

Quellium Sat 06-Jul-19 08:04:42

I meant above that I'm 'better off' not having the Leave negativity, xenophobia and spitefulness in my life. (yeah, yeah. Not all Leavers. Just all the ones I know).

I don't mean I'm better off financially. Just to clarify.

InTheHeatofLisbon Sat 06-Jul-19 08:05:45

Scottish Labour are pretty shit at the moment too, and the carpetbagger Richard Leonard is part of it. They're red Tories.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 08:06:58

All the current EU member states (including Spain who have changed their position since the Catalan vote) have said they wouldn't block Scotland joining the EU

Saying is one thing delivering is another. Sometimes wonder if the EU is sending out signals to Scotland about rejoining the EU is an attempt to further divide the UK in the hope to thwart Brexit.
Remember Cameron saying Scotland should not vote for independence from UK is they want to remain in the EU?

If Scotland wants to rejoin the EU then obviously EU will want something in return. What will Scotland put on the table?

Guess there will have to be a hard border between England and Scotland?

SafetyLightsAreForDudes Sat 06-Jul-19 08:08:13

It's a bit of a leap to say that the decline in support for Scottish Labour is down to Corbyn (and I'm no fan of his) given that the SNP gained a majority in the Scottish Parliament (within a voting system designed to prevent exactly that) in 2011 and won all except 3 Westminster constituencies in 2015 - both while Ed Miliband was leader hmm

In terms of the OP I feel much the same as many in this thread - the divisions won't be healed any time soon. All options - deal, no deal, revoke - have such strong opposition that no matter what happens there will be a sizeable number of people who feel angry and betrayed.

mindproject Sat 06-Jul-19 08:09:22

Just cancel Brexit. It will be like ripping a plaster off; it will sting for a short time, but it's the quickest and easiest solution.

The alternative is we go ahead with it, life will be extremely hard for most people, the poorest will die and the blame game will continue for generations.

InTheHeatofLisbon Sat 06-Jul-19 08:14:28

Remember Cameron saying Scotland should not vote for independence from UK is they want to remain in the EU?

Who could forget? It's the reason we lost the first referendum!

If Scotland wants to rejoin the EU then obviously EU will want something in return. What will Scotland put on the table?

The oilfields which were undervalued have suddenly become the saviour of the entire UK according to English newspapers (the same ones who talked them down 5 years ago), renewable energy, and oh aye, the fishing waters that Westminster has used as a bargaining chip since day one. Exports which are rising higher than the rest of the UK, and a growing market for modern industry.

Guess there will have to be a hard border between England and Scotland?

I'd prefer not to have one, but if needs must, so be it.

leiderhosen Sat 06-Jul-19 08:17:43

Lifecontinues of course we fucking know we'll go down the plug hole too. That's why we're incandescent. We're being dragged down against our will. A lot of remainers think it will be a disaster whatever Brexit we get. It's not a question of not having 'won' as we're always represented as being pissed off about. It's about all of the issues to do with the economy, relations with other countries, the labour market, workers rights, human rights, consumer rights, greater equality. To me those things are priceless in comparison to the pennies each one of us spend on EU per annum. And anyway the Brexit project has probably cost many years of EU contributions in terms of planning and government time.

How would you feel if your next door neighbour could decide to sell your house at a knock down price, get you sacked from your job so you have to taken one at lower wages and poorer working conditions? That's what it feels like. So people who don't even know what they'd do with sovereignty (I've never heard anyone give a decent answer to that question) can say say they've got it back,

In answer to the OP, no I'll never forgive them for what they've done to our future, our standing in the world, our country's harmony, Northern Ireland, the economy, my children's future. Just so they can feel a bit important for a while and hanker after a past that never existed. Just no!

leiderhosen Sat 06-Jul-19 08:20:18

Oh and Brexiteers will just blame remainers for it being a disaster. They could never admit they were wrong. They'll just say it's our fault because we didn't get behind it enough, or some other bollocks.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 08:21:37

The oilfields which were undervalued have suddenly become the saviour of the entire UK according to English newspapers (the same ones who talked them down 5 years ago), renewable energy, and oh aye, the fishing waters that Westminster has used as a bargaining chip since day one. Exports which are rising higher than the rest of the UK, and a growing market for modern industry

What would that equate to in terms of cash on the table?

UK as a whole pays 50 Million per day Gross which after rebate drop to about 30 to 35 Million per day. How would Scotland's cash on the table compare?

BeyondMyWits Sat 06-Jul-19 08:23:53

What Brexit?

Hasn't. happened. yet.

3 years and counting

tomtom1999xx Sat 06-Jul-19 08:28:39

I’m sure once we’ve left things will settle down & people will just get on with their lives, it’s the uncertainty that causes the problems.
I don’t know anyone who talks about brexit in RL, it’s only on social media I see people talking about it.
What choices do we have once we’ve left?
You either get on with it or you move to a different country.
I’m sure social media will still be talking about brexit for a few years after we’ve left, but people will eventually just stop and move on.

InTheHeatofLisbon Sat 06-Jul-19 08:28:43

LifeContinues honestly I don't know. Because so many lies have been told it's impossible to predict.

But if we're fucked anyway, I'd rather have an option that means we could rejoin the EU, and not be viewed as knuckle dragging racists by the rest of the world than be aligned with the increasingly ridiculous charade that is Westminster.

Scandinavian trade is also an option, which they've said would be possible.

The point is that nobody knows what is coming do they? It's why we're in this godawful mess, because so many people voted in a knee jerk way without guarantees.

I have no patience with leave voters bleating that they never voted for a no deal Brexit. They did, because by voting leave they voted for the unknown. Well it's not the unknown anymore. It's no deal Brexit. Which is unthinkable. Palliative care doctors have said drugs won't be available. The economy will tank, again. Living costs will rise, wages will fall, and the Tories will have sole control without the mitigation of the EU.

So the welfare state, wages, working conditions, the NHS, all under their control without the backup of the EU.

It's horrendous.

So aye, if Scotland gets independence nobody's expecting it to be rosy immediately, but we might as well if we're fucked anyway take the chance to not be dragged into a godawful mess we never voted for again!

InTheHeatofLisbon Sat 06-Jul-19 08:31:09

Oh and the amount of people stamping their feet because Scotland and NI won't fall in line and do as they're told and declaring we can just fuck off then aren't helping.

If we're such a drain, why the fuck did so many politicians make such an effort to keep the union intact?

Because it benefits them. That's why. But it doesn't benefit Scotland or NI.

Mistigri Sat 06-Jul-19 08:31:44

I don't think there is any way to "bring the country back together" tbh. If Brexit doesn't happen there is a group of people who will go to their graves still bitter about it. If it does happen, and especially if there is no deal, many young people's lives will be blighted by the loss of opportunities and it will be a long time before they forgive that.

1tisILeClerc Sat 06-Jul-19 09:12:22

The point of being in the EU is not just about money, it is about creating opportunities for PEOPLE. OK money is involved, but it unlike the UK sucking up to the USA as it's 'new best buddy' the USA is not interested in people but profit. The USA does not need more people, or 'security' because it can split the world apart with so many warheads within minutes.
For Scotland to leave the UK and stay/rejoin the EU would bring with it various restrictions, no doubt Nicola will have this under her pillow.
Tanks to Preregrina for mentioning the Spanish Civil war and the rate at which enmity between the sides have gradually dissipated, but even in the UK Liverpudlians refuse to buy some papers because of their reporting on Hillsborough and of course there are other conflicts closer to home, even the wars of the roses.
With a forward looking, comfortable and equitable society, wounds can heal, in the UK the conflict has hardly started, let alone any sign of any form of reconciliation. If/when the economy crashes around 1 November the name calling and bitterness which is present even on this 'chat board' will intensify and may well take a physical form.
Remember the 'scrap' outside a build a bear place a yer back?

1tisILeClerc Sat 06-Jul-19 09:13:30

Tanks = Thanks, obviously!

KennDodd Sat 06-Jul-19 09:14:30

Where that twat Cameron who started this whole mess and has 'no regrets'?

KennDodd Sat 06-Jul-19 09:19:34

@tomtom1999xx

You either get on with it or you move to a different country.

Wasn't the whole point of Brexit to make it harder to move to another country? After Brexit most people just won't have that option unless they're very highly skilled, very rich or can take part in some short term youth program and before they have to go back home.

leiderhosen Sat 06-Jul-19 09:43:17

I agree KennDodd but also would say it's not as simple to leave anyway for older people (not elderly but not in my twenties) like me. I've got my family, friends and career here. I wouldn't be able to do my job in another country, for instance. I have no support network overseas.

Annoyingly I think in a few years time as the younger generation reaches maturity, there will be fewer inward looking reactionaries and a much higher remain support. If only he'd waited a few years to have the sodding vote. And if Cameron doesn't have any regrets, he bloody well should have. Turning a country against each other and tanking the economy for a generation at least: good work.

Bearbehind Sat 06-Jul-19 09:59:36

I often wonder what would happen about the cries of ‘democracy’ if there was a People’s Vote and the mandate for Brexit was lost.

The only reason Leavers don’t want such a vote is they know they would lose this time because the middle ground Leavers have realised how damaging it’s going to be and don’t feel strongly enough about it to choose it again.

So, if democracy had changed its mind, I’m sure Leavers would still try and insist the first vote was all that mattered - which would prove this has nothing to do with democracy, just getting their own way, and to hell with the consequences.

noodlenosefraggle Sat 06-Jul-19 10:20:45

I agree. It's too late for me to leave, although I could get an EU passport if I wanted. The problem is that my children wouldn't as they only have British grandparents. Luckily they are young enough to change their future, but that may well have to be by going elsewhere.

Mistigri Sat 06-Jul-19 10:29:09

No one who doesn't qualify for a skills or job related visa (or has an immediate family member who qualifies) has any real opportunity to leave the UK now except to Ireland, so this "if you don't like it just leave" attitude is just staggering hypocrisy (or plain stupidity; probably the latter in many cases)

You'd gave to be be insane to emigrate to the EU now, unless you're very wealthy or have a decent job lined up. New arrivals will in most cases have few rights after Brexit unless they are working and earning a reasonable amount.

KennDodd Sat 06-Jul-19 11:03:42

A friend of mine have very vocal Leaver mum who's just got herself an Irish passport so she doesn't lose her rights to swan around Europe as she pleases. My Remain voting friend and his children are not entitled to this, he is beyond furious with his mum that she voted to take rights and opportunities away from his children while taking steps that she doesn't lose though rights herself. How can that heal?

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 11:21:24

The only reason Leavers don’t want such a vote is they know they would lose this time because the middle ground Leavers have realised how damaging it’s going to be and don’t feel strongly enough about it to choose it again

Is there any conclusive evidence that people have changed their minds?

The recent success of Brexit Party and the flop by Change UK Party suggests people have not changed their minds.

Bearbehind Sat 06-Jul-19 11:26:59

The recent success of Brexit Party and the flop by Change UK Party suggests people have not changed their minds.

The Brexit party got 30 odd percent of the votes - that’s not the 52% that won the first referendum and is not enough to win a second referendum

Like I said, the headbangers mean this isn’t going to go away but they aren’t the majority and should be able to destroy the country for everyone.

CrunchyCarrot Sat 06-Jul-19 11:32:04

Any notion that somehow BJ or Hunt will 'bring the country together' is fantasy land. I think the only things that will really do that are perhaps an alien invasion or drastic consequences from climate change.

KennDodd Sat 06-Jul-19 11:32:58

I don't think most people have changed their minds, a small number have but not significantly more. I still think we should have another referendum though, a change of this magnitude need to be double checked. I'd say the same about Scottish independence or deciding to become a republic or something like that. The opitions have consolidated down to no deal v remain and regardless of what you think of Brexit many many politicians were going round promising a fabulous deal and many leave voters would have voted with this in mind and given the choice between no deal and remain would choose remain. Equally no deal could very well still win and if it did it might get politicians off the hook a bit in that they could legitimately blame the electorate for any fallout.

1tisILeClerc Sat 06-Jul-19 11:42:31

Except that 'no deal' doesn't actually exist in the real world, it is just a much more extreme version of a very bad deal.
The UK is going to get screwed, the 2 options are to use some lube, or sand, which would you like?

whatwouldbigfatfannydo Sat 06-Jul-19 11:47:18

They shouldn't try. Scotland and NI voted to remain in the EU and are being taken out against what should be their democratic right.

We have been clearly shown what we mean to the 'UK' (of which I want to be no part of tbh). I, for one, can't wait for independence from the Westminster Circus and absolute joke of a democracy (royal family, house of lords etc.). I have nothing against English people at all but I want to be in with a chance of having a leader we actually voted for.

Peregrina Sat 06-Jul-19 11:52:50

The recent success of Brexit Party and the flop by Change UK Party suggests people have not changed their minds.

In the EU election the Brexit party got 5 more seats that UKIP did. Don't tell me it's a new party, because it's repackaged UKIP and without Farage it will fall apart.

The LibDems gained 15 seats. The Greens went from 4 to 7. So who really did win there, given the huge Farage propaganda?

BJ certainly can't bring anyone together - getting divorced from his wife and having rows with the girlfriend which can be heard by all the neighbours doesn't sound like someone who negotiates and seeks consensus.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 11:53:29

The flop by the Change UK has been picked up by the Lib Dems. Despite being tainted by having been in coalition with the Tories they are doing astonishingly well because Leavers are flocking to them in desperation. More anti Brexit MEPs were elected in this country than pro Brexit ones. Those parties appear to have learned there lesson and appear to be backing away so there is only one anti Brexit candidate in the 1 August by-election.

Peregrina Sat 06-Jul-19 11:58:24

and given the choice between no deal and remain would choose remain.

Except that some people think No Deal is the status quo i.e. Remain.

noodlenosefraggle Sat 06-Jul-19 12:17:01

My only hope if Boris wins is that he is the only one who has a ladder for the ERG and the DUP to climb down. I have a feeling he is just going to repackage the WA as a grand new plan ( because it has to be signed come what may, even in the event of a no deal) and they will agree to it because they have their Brexiteer PM who they voted for, who has left no deal on the table, so what else can they do? There should be enough Labour MP's exasperated at their lack of action and exasperated at their refusal to back a second referendum to just vote the bloody thing through, together with those in remain and Brexit supporting marginals who will be terrified of losing their seats in a GE. I hope. We can't possibly expect a further extension just to carry on with this shitshow for a bit longer. there has to be a change somewhere.

InTheHeatofLisbon Sat 06-Jul-19 12:19:14

The success of the Brexit party and flop of Change UK in England.

People who speak about the UK when they mean England are pig fucking ignorant. If you mean England say England, if you're talking about the UK as a whole, don't just mean England.

Fucking hell.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 12:23:25

leave voters would have voted with this in mind and given the choice between no deal and remain would choose remain

The number of people on these threads who know exactly how other people will vote is astonishing.

Can you explain how to acquire the ability to read the minds of millions of people?

noodlenosefraggle Sat 06-Jul-19 13:13:32

So let's have a confirmatory referendum to see what people think 3 years on. It's leavers running scared of that. If they know they will win, then they should be all for it. They aren't, because they know that 2016 was their one and only chance of getting what they want.

Peregrina Sat 06-Jul-19 13:19:24

Can you explain how to acquire the ability to read the minds of millions of people?

We have already seen you state that Labour and the Tories are losing voters because they are not implementing Brexit. So you are obviously a mind reader.

Bearbehind Sat 06-Jul-19 13:24:49

Can you explain how to acquire the ability to read the minds of millions of people?

Can you explain why you and the rest of the Leave supporters are so afraid of a second referendum?

It’s for no other reason than you know you wouldn’t win.

Justaboutdone Sat 06-Jul-19 13:25:25

I have historically been a unionist and now live in England.

I no longer believe in the United Kingdom. The way the Scots and the Northern Irish have been treated is diabolical.

And if we do get No Deal then I want those supporting it to suffer the most.

My children (and they are my priority) do not deserve this.

Seem selfish I know but I am sick and disgusted by people and what seems to becoming acceptable in this once tolerant country.

InTheHeatofLisbon Sat 06-Jul-19 13:28:37

Can you explain why you and the rest of the Leave supporters are so afraid of a second referendum?

I'd like this answered too please.

I know the government are loathe to sanction a second referendum as it sets a precedent for Indy 2 and also they know it's likely to be a remain win.

However I'm not naive enough to think that even with a second referendum and remain win that the UK will be anything close to united in many ways. Brexit has caused societal fractures that will take a generation (at least) to heal. It's brought out a truly ugly section of society (no, not all leave voters but a large and noisy group of them) which shames everyone and makes the entire UK look ridiculous and bigoted.

I hate it, I hate the bitterness, the divisions, the racism/xenophobia and outright nastiness that has come from this ridiculous charade.

InTheHeatofLisbon Sat 06-Jul-19 13:31:00

Seem selfish I know but I am sick and disgusted by people and what seems to becoming acceptable in this once tolerant country.

I hear you. The union has been shown up to be a one country farce, and the social acceptability of the most appalling prejudices has become the norm. It makes me angrier than I can reasonably explain.

We're currently on holiday in the heart of Brexit country, and have had more than a few snide comments. I'm now packing to go home 3 days early because I'm sick to the back teeth of the shit we've had.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 13:47:19

Compared to the 2017 GE

Conservatives lost 16%
Labour lost 22%

A total of 38%

Brexit party currently at 23%
Lib Dem’s 20% up 12 from 2017 GE

Gains by Brexit Party and LibDems total 35% almost the same as what Labour and conservative have lost.

So where did the Brexit party votes come from if not from the loses by labour and conservatives?

Justaboutdone Sat 06-Jul-19 14:02:06

How does the Brexit party in 2019 vote compare to UKIP vote in 2014.

I think a lot of people would not transfer their EU vote to UK GE.

This time it may be different but I really hope not.

DorisDaysDadsDogsDead Sat 06-Jul-19 14:22:50

People are forgetting that this entire farce is only about the Conservative party. Bozo and that Hunt are only really saying that they think they can unite the party. The Tories have consistently shown that they couldn't give a flying fuck about the country.

BeyondMyWits Sat 06-Jul-19 14:25:47

People vote very differently in a GE. And people may vote very differently in the next GE after Brexit. If we ever get to Brexit...

#threeyearsandcounting

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 14:26:46

Neither candidate for next PM is that good.

BoJo talking about raising the higher rate tax threshold from £50K to £80K, but does not seem to have said anything about those who earn less which is most of the UK.

Hunt wants to lift the ban on fox hunting! How many people are meant to benefit from that?

DorisDaysDadsDogsDead Sat 06-Jul-19 14:27:53

And it's clear that even the Quitlings think that Remain would win a people's vote. Otherwise they wouldn't, like ShillsContinue here, keep coming up with more and more pathetic and ridiculous excuses as to why a democratic vote wouldn't be democratic...

KennDodd Sat 06-Jul-19 15:04:31

Except that some people think No Deal is the status quo i.e. Remain.

That's a very good point, I've seen that research somewhere as well, not that they think it means Remain, they think it means we've left but that nothing will change.
I always thought a much better use of public money producing the 'step into the unknown' leaflet would have been a flyer just explaining what things are.
In that -
This is what the single market is, this is what it does, this is what it doesn't do.
This is what the customs union is, this is what it does, this is what it doesn't do.
This is what the WTO is, this is what it does, this is what it doesn't do.
Good Friday Agreement and so on.

Most voters (and it seems politicians) just didn't (and many still don't) know what these things were.

1tisILeClerc Sat 06-Jul-19 15:21:35

KennDodd
While I agree with you, to many it was like the cat watching the baubles on the Christmas tree, unable to see or think rationally.
Remember almost any downside was 'project fear' and still is.

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