No Deal supporters? Can you see any downsides? If so, why are these outweighed by the upsides.

(497 Posts)
bellinisurge Wed 03-Jul-19 20:14:24

Genuine question. I was prepared to accept WA but that was apparently not sufficient. So, why is No Deal better?

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SonEtLumiere Thu 11-Jul-19 11:30:53

...and even weirder that you think ending Freedom of Movement will increase the wages of anyone else doing that work.

If you think leaving the EU will improve the lot of NMW earners you have another think coming.

1tisILeClerc Thu 11-Jul-19 10:43:27

It seems a bit strange to be assuming that Simon and Patrick are effectively the same. Patrick is the head of a board who collectively make the decisions about the business.
Venting your spleen over one family member who you disapprove of is one thing, applying it to the whole family is out of order.
Boris and Jo Johnson are not the same.

clubbard Thu 11-Jul-19 10:22:52

I feel a bit sorry for Simon Coveney and the team having to deal with shits like Barclay
Don’t feel sorry for Simon. His brother is Patrick Coveney of Greencore. The company that exploits every wonderful opportunity the EU has offered to drive down wages and conditions for UK workers.
www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/greencore-accused-of-exploiting-uk-staff-in-row-over-wages-1.2045800
Families like the Coveneys represent everything that is wrong with the EU. Greencore and companies like it are one of the leading causes of Brexit.

1tisILeClerc Thu 11-Jul-19 07:39:44

SonEtLumiere
Indeed.
Everything is becoming in the past tense.
We HAD good, knowledgeable Civil servants (Ivan being just one).
We HAD a good reputation for innovation and high tech business.
We HAD a seat at the top table of EU decision making.
All of this and more has been gradually eroded by Eurosceptics over the last 10 years or so but most rapidly since just before the ref in 2016.

SonEtLumiere Thu 11-Jul-19 07:11:13

I know, I feel a bit sorry for Simon Coveney and the team having to deal with shits like Barclay who can’t even pretend to reciprocate the Sovereignty that they say is so important to them.

It is amazing that regardless what a Brexiteer of any hue says, the unpicking of it lies in one of Ivan Rogers “Nine Lessons of Brexit” (In this case Other People have Sovereignty Too)

Isthisafreename Wed 10-Jul-19 21:17:37

@SonEtLumiere - Lovely comment from Steven Barclay where he acknowledges that a No Deal Brexit will take the UK economy down, but it’s OK because taking the Irish economy down with it will bring the EU back to deliver the Unicorns.

Except, as no deal advocates say: somethings are more important than money. Ireland is not willing to throw the north under a bus by abandoning the backstop.

There is massive preparation going on in anticipation of a disorderly brexit. At the moment, while there is hope that it won't happen, it is accepted that the likelihood of no deal is quite high.

SonEtLumiere Wed 10-Jul-19 20:43:00

Lovely comment from Steven Barclay where he acknowledges that a No Deal Brexit will take the UK economy down, but it’s OK because taking the Irish economy down with it will bring the EU back to deliver the Unicorns.

Isthisafreename Wed 10-Jul-19 19:31:07

@1tisILeClerc. Oh right. I see what you mean.

I think the reality is more likely to be completely ignoring that issue (as is currently happening) as it's not really relevant to brexit in a physical way. Parity is also there at the moment so not something that needs to be implemented. It only becomes an issue down the road when rights diverge. But it's a GFA issue rather than an EU/UK issue.

The fact the UK dispute the meaning of this part of the GFA also means it will not be a priority at any stage for them. It will be up to the Irish government; a cross-border institution, such as the Joint Committee; the NI Human Rights Commission; or a NI citizen to take then to task. It's outside the remit of the EU.

1tisILeClerc Wed 10-Jul-19 19:17:14

I was meaning 'fudge' as in a proper legally based review, which is essentially 'software' something that can be discussed as it is negotiable, rather than physical hardware that can correctly identify the contents of a speeding truck with 20 tons of beef in it.

As an observation, the DUP want equality as long as they are more equal than anyone else.

Parker231 Wed 10-Jul-19 19:10:08

amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/10/ursula-von-der-leyen-signals-not-reopen-brexit-talks-backstop

No new Brexit agreement

Isthisafreename Wed 10-Jul-19 18:52:44

@1tisILeClerc - Yes, true. It would likely be an easier thing to 'fudge' though as opposed to physically checking goods though which is necessary for preventing spread of disease and so on.

Rights can be ignored until someone takes a court case when the EU has improved rights or the UK has removed rights (or vice versa). There's no focus on rights at the moment as there is parity. Plus, the UK is claiming that the statement on parity of rights was a static undertaking, meaning that rights needed to be on a par at the start on the implementation of the GFA rather than an ongoing process. The Joint Committee of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission disagree.

1tisILeClerc Wed 10-Jul-19 16:33:22

Isthisafreename
Yes, true. It would likely be an easier thing to 'fudge' though as opposed to physically checking goods though which is necessary for preventing spread of disease and so on.
As with everything, who the heck knows!

Isthisafreename Wed 10-Jul-19 16:11:59

@1tisILeClerc I believe a far amount of the citizens rights 'issues' are 'resolved' in the 3 parts of the WA bill.

I thought that was only dealing with rights of EU citizens living in the UK and vice-versa? I'm referring to the provision in the GFA that there is parity of rights between citizens of NI and RoI. It's not an issue now obviously as there is parity. However, if the EU introduce new rights or the UK rows back on some of the existing rights, then it becomes an issue.

1tisILeClerc Wed 10-Jul-19 16:04:41

I believe a far amount of the citizens rights 'issues' are 'resolved' in the 3 parts of the WA bill. Citizens rights, the backstop and the £39 Billion part. Unless there is some backsliding I think both the UK and EU have said they should continue. FoM is an issue of course. The EU, and WTO if it were to defer to those rules, are about goods and protection against counterfeiting and disease transfer rather than people.

noodlenosefraggle Wed 10-Jul-19 15:57:30

So really we need Norway + or breach the GFA. What a disaster!

Isthisafreename Wed 10-Jul-19 15:56:43

@bellinisurge - yep. Definitely unicorn territory grin

bellinisurge Wed 10-Jul-19 15:53:59

@Isthisafreename , in my fantasy solution to Brexit- Border in the sea/NI is a special economic area- I am kinda hoping a parity of rights will be somehow smudged into it. Yes I know that this is not much more unicorn-y than "alternative arrangements" but the will to keep people 's rights should be strong.

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Isthisafreename Wed 10-Jul-19 15:39:06

@noodlenosefraggle - a border in the Irish Sea, with NI as a special economic area isn't sufficient to uphold the GFA. Parity of rights is also a requirement. That means rights legislated by the EU in areas such as employment, equality etc must also be legislated for NI. Given the UK have yet to implement legislation that facilitates those who identify as Irish, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. The UK presumes all NI citizens are British whereas the the GFA allows citizens to identify as British, Irish or both.

noodlenosefraggle Wed 10-Jul-19 14:48:20

Yes I agree. I hope the only positive thing that may happen with a GE is that they are wiped out ( although I doubt it, given their entrenched support). A border in the Irish Sea and making NI a free trade area would uphold the GFA and be massively economically beneficial to NI. NI voted remain, yet they, and all of us are being held to ransom by these reactionary nutjobs.

bellinisurge Wed 10-Jul-19 12:51:51

"The DUP are not a normal political party. They will not give way, no matter what the consequences. Plus, a no deal brexit scuppers the GFA, which, given their opposition to it, is only positive to their minds."
No they aren't. Fuck 'em. Or No Brexit.

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Isthisafreename Wed 10-Jul-19 10:45:29

@TheEmpireNoMore - Some posters think that if Conservatives had not been reliant on DUP to obtain a majority then NI and GFA would have been ignored?

NI and the GFA are being ignored. The DUP were listened to. They are only interested in 2 things: ensuring NI stays in the UK and is not treated differently (except when it suits them); and screwing RoI and the GFA.

Isthisafreename Wed 10-Jul-19 10:06:11

@TheEmpireNoMore

Hope it does not happen, but if it comes down to a choice between;

Ignoring GFA so Brexit proceeds, or

Upholding GFA at the expense of Brexit

I think whoever is next PM will take the first option

Unfortunately, I agree with you.

Isthisafreename Wed 10-Jul-19 10:03:53

@bellinisurge - The DUP should give so that we have a border in the sea and NI as a special economic zone.

The DUP are not a normal political party. They will not give way, no matter what the consequences. Plus, a no deal brexit scuppers the GFA, which, given their opposition to it, is only positive to their minds.

bellinisurge Wed 10-Jul-19 09:28:38

The DUP should give so that we have a border in the sea and NI as a special economic zone.

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TheEmpireNoMore Wed 10-Jul-19 09:27:09

were mostly objecting to the backstop

That was the sticking point all the time as some feared that WA created a scenario whereby the UK would be in the EU permanently.

Leaving the EU and at the same time respecting GFA seems to have no solution. That means something has to give.

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