No Deal supporters? Can you see any downsides? If so, why are these outweighed by the upsides.

[bellinisurge]

Genuine question. I was prepared to accept WA but that was apparently not sufficient. So, why is No Deal better?

[onalongsabbatical]

They're not playing. They've got weightier matters, like trashing one of the greatest and most moving pieces of music ever written that's been used for years in celebration of peace in Europe.
I'm so angry about that. Of all things - Ode to Joy - uplifting, hopeful, uniting. How bloody dare they.
Sorry for the derail.

[Bearbehind]

I suspect this will be a very quiet thread.

Anything else requires acknowledging something other than whatever Leavers thought they could have, in isolation, without any cost.

[LifeContinues]

So, why is No Deal better?

WA was rejected 3 times by UK and EU say they will not re-visit the WA. If there is no common ground then whatever the default position is comes into play which is No Deal with EU. UK then has to trade under WTO.

Is it the best outcome - NO

Is it the only option left - YES

[HirplesWithHaggis]

Or revoke Article 50.

[LifeContinues]

Or revoke Article 50

How does that honor the result of the 2016 referendum?

[bellinisurge]

And do the only upside is that it allegedly honours the result of the referendum and that this outweighs all the downsides? What a peculiar thing to say.
By the way, I assume autocorrect spelled "honour" the US way rather than you and that you are not actually from the US . Because if you are from the US, I'm not sure why this is any of your business.

[StealthPolarBear]

Came on to say the same thing. No, no deal is not the only option left. Accepting that leaving the EU was a bad idea after all and would plunge the country into crisis and revoking, is also an option

[StealthPolarBear]

Tory party fucked either way so why can't they just do the right thing.

[LifeContinues]

By the way, I assume autocorrect spelled "honour" the US way rather than you and that you are not actually from the US

I am not from US. Spell check has been set up that way as I am out of the UK at present

Because if you are from the US, I'm not sure why this is any of your business

Please pass this comment on to Obama who prior to the 2016 referendum urged UK not to leave EU as it would put UK to the back of the queue for trade talks.

And do the only upside is that it allegedly honours the result of the referendum and that this outweighs all the downsides?

How does leaving the EU not honour the 2016 referendum result?

[LifeContinues]

and revoking, is also an option

Is that not the policy of the newly formed Change UK party? People can vote for them at the next General Election if they wish.

[TemporaryPermanent]

I'm Remain. Very, very Remain. I live in Oxford FGS.

But I also think that revoking art 50 has severe risks. It isn't Leavers fault that they were promised that the result would be implemented, just because nobody thought a sane developed nation would actually do this thing.

It's too late for the status quo: that's gone. Our economy, politics, national life and culture are already damaged have changed. Revoke suggests we can have 2016 back. We can't. Revoke is a fantasy just like Leaving.

No Deal, of course means the WA anyway. But the WA while having left. With absolutely no influence.

I'm hoping that the big upside will be the same as the Trump upside. Involvement. People rolling up their sleeves and standing for office, taking action. Helping each other, sharing food etc. Finding positive routes for their anger.

[TemporaryPermanent]

But Obama didn't tell us what to do. He told us what the US would do. With piercing accuracy. Is anyone seriously saying the President had no right to say what his country would do?

[Songsofexperience]

@bellinisurge

Personally I don't think the question should even be asked as it gives no deal the same sort of standing as that we previously gave leave. No deal = destruction of the country, honestly it's criminal. The only possible reason anyone can give in support of no deal is based on toxic indoctrination and/or cynical self interest (in the case of those politicians who support it).

[billysboy]

In negotiating any agreement I think it weakens your hand if you take options off the table or your adversary thinks there are certain things you are not prepared to do
So I would have thought it would be the smart thing to do to leave no deal on the table and be prepared to use it as a very last resort as a negotiating tactic

[bellinisurge]

You have a point there. But, you never know, they might have something rather than as @LifeContinues does, rehashing the same old Leave/Remain arguments as if this is now about that. It's about versions of Leave and the one currently on offer is unpatriotic shite. I could accept the previous one, WA. Or anything test doesn't mess up GFA.
I was listening to Hunt on R4 this morning talking about how Britain has always abided by international agreements and expects China to do so (this was about Hong Kong). I parked before I shouted Hypocritical Wanker.

[bellinisurge]

My comment was to @Songsofexperience

[bellinisurge]

@billysboy , what negotiations? We've had the negotiations. The only way we can leave on 31 October is No Deal. Or, as @Iambuffy has suggested in another thread, by one of those two putting WA back to Parliament with new weasel words.

[LifeContinues]

In negotiating any agreement I think it weakens your hand if you take options off the table or your adversary thinks there are certain things you are not prepared to do
So I would have thought it would be the smart thing to do to leave no deal on the table and be prepared to use it as a very last resort as a negotiating tactic

Exactly. This is where T May got it all wrong.

[Quellium]

I don't intend to help anyone that put me in a situation whereby my children don't have food. I can't imagine I'm alone in that.

We won't see a return to some mythical, golden tinted ideal where has a heart of gold and helps out their neighbour. We are on a dark path.

[billysboy]

belinisurge

Do you not think there will be any further negotiation ?

Maybe the EU can be pushed further if they think you are prepared to leave if necessary and carry that with some conviction

[1tisILeClerc]

{In negotiating any agreement I think it weakens your hand if you take options off the table or your adversary thinks there are certain things you are not prepared to do}

The UK leaving is not an existential threat to the EU. A disappointment yes, a significant bump in the finances, yes but not ultimately damaging to that extent.
The UK however, flouncing about and being generally disagreeable are rapidly trashing 'good deals' with anybody. The EU is factoring out long term trade with the UK and as the UK government is acting so erratically, other trade blocs will take a deep breath before committing to anything, as the UK through even suggesting it might refuse to pay the 'exit bill' will raise significant concerns.

[bellinisurge]

Our attempts to "bully" the EU into reopening negotiations haven't worked so far.
With apologies to anyone who has been through this in real life, I'm not sure saying talk to me or I will throw myself off a bridge is actually negotiating.

[bellinisurge]

No Deal would certainly hurt the EU but not as much as it would hurt us. And, if you are going through shit, isn't it better with 26 mates rather than on your own.

[billysboy]

Well we will can all sit back and see how this plays out and agree to differ rather than go round and round

[1tisILeClerc]

billysboy
The EU have said consistently since December that the WA document is closed, they will not and do not need to reopen it.

They have made and published their 'emergency plan' if the UK crashes out and are essentially waiting for it to happen.

The options for the UK to revoke, sign the WA and write a new PD, or crash out are still on the table. Unless the UK PM asks for another extension, the 'no deal' option happens on 31 October.