Page 2 | What are the real tangible benefits of the UK leaving the EU ?

(290 Posts)
frumpety Wed 03-Jul-19 07:43:35

I assume there must be at least a couple, things that can be said with certainty, that will improve the lives of UK citizens. I am not talking about the 'feelings' stuff like sovereignty, I mean if the UK leaves the EU , X will happen and this will automatically improve the lives of the majority of the people in the UK. There has to be at least one ?

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Peregrina Wed 03-Jul-19 09:36:05

I think you are kidding yourself LifeContinues if you think that all Brexiters share your opinions of Indians. I do, my cousin has been married to one for years - kind, thoughtful, hard working etc. But the man who was fined yesterday for abusing a black Briton and telling her that she would be out when Brexit happens would not think so. He might only represent 10% of the population but that is 6 million or so people.

Peregrina Wed 03-Jul-19 09:40:27

ZazieTheCat - paragraph 1 about the housing crisis.

Tell me about it as they say. I could have written that word for word myself.

LifeContinues Wed 03-Jul-19 09:49:59

How YOU personally feel about a situation does not equate to an improvement in the lives of many

Why each of the 17.4 Million who voted Leave chose to do so will never be known, but they did as they thought they would be better off in some way. If they weren't bothered at all they could have chose not to vote like 13 Million others.

Some may have liked the idea of UK not sending money to the EU, but prefer it to be spent in the UK. Remember not all EU members are net contributors to the EU pot. Of the 28 EU members there are 10 that pay in and 18 that take out. Look on the link;

www.ednh.news/eu-payers-and-receivers/

Some who run their own businesses may think that without EU control they will have more freedom to trade with others and their businesses will prosper?

Some may have believed the Tabloids' comments about how immigration; costs the UK a fortune, the UK is bursting at the seams, NHS and schools can't cope with the overload imposed by immigration, etc.

The list of possibilities could go on forever.

Point is that more thought UK would be better off by leaving the EU compared to those who thought UK would be worse off by leaving the EU, all be it not a huge difference.

LifeContinues Wed 03-Jul-19 09:54:23

if you think that all Brexiters share your opinions of Indians

I don't remember saying that all 17.4 Million who voted Leave share my opinions about Indians or anything else?

He might only represent 10% of the population but that is 6 million or so people

How do you calculate that one man represents 10% and 6 million of the population. That is extrapolation taken to the extreme!

frumpety Wed 03-Jul-19 09:56:17

Point is that more thought UK would be better off by leaving the EU compared to those who thought UK would be worse off by leaving the EU, all be it not a huge difference.

But the question I was asking is what are the real tangible benefits of leaving the EU, things that can be said with certainty will happen and will improve the lives of the many ? It is three years since the referendum , there must be at least one or two ?

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Moggiesarespoiled Wed 03-Jul-19 09:58:51

@Duckwillow, You can’t seriously have read these Brexit threads and not noticed the derogatory terms used for leavers eg Brexshitters, Faragists, racists, islamaphobes so forgive me if I respond in kind, indeed your point that we are not intelligent enough to debate just proves me right. Own goal perhaps?

1tisILeClerc Wed 03-Jul-19 09:59:32

{ZazieTheCat - paragraph 1 about the housing crisis.

Tell me about it as they say. I could have written that word for word myself.}

Even this is just part of a much wider, in fact worldwide problem.
The whole nature of work has changed for a vast number of people and very few countries have actually embraced this change. With the technology employable by many industries, there simply isn't enough 'manual' labour to go around and what there is, is not based where the old centres of population grew. There are thinktanks talking about 4 day or even 3 day week, which would benefit humans greatly but only if taken on as a wholehearted project with wide support.
Humankind needs to be more 'efficient' or at least not be as wasteful, so regular travelling should be minimised, whether this is by a shorter week, relocating or whatever.
Having large numbers who work (including travel times) crazy hours and another large number who are unemployed causes a lot of resentment, so a way to even things out needs to be found tor a society to be comfortable with itself.
A retake on the 'Teach a man to fish and he will be fed for life'.

How we get there I have no idea, but leaving the EU won't solve any of the current problems.

LifeContinues Wed 03-Jul-19 10:00:03

They used to have the freedom to live and work in other European countries with relative ease. Soon they won’t

I worked in Bulgaria before it was EU along with many other EU nationals from; Germany, Italy and France. Was not an issue as the Project was financed by EBRD and Bulgaria needed the outside expertise.

SaintAlice Wed 03-Jul-19 10:02:06

The fascists will be appeased.

Apileofballyhoo Wed 03-Jul-19 10:02:29

I was going to say that the Tories will no longer be able to blame things on the EU which might lead to more accountability and better government. But of course they will continue to blame everything on the EU, and people will lap it up.

ZazieTheCat Wed 03-Jul-19 10:02:32

And you had that expertise. But lots of people could go to live in EU countries and just get relatively normal jobs, not specialist skills in shortage.

ZazieTheCat Wed 03-Jul-19 10:03:31

That was to LifeContinues.

Peregrina Wed 03-Jul-19 10:04:08

I don't remember saying that all 17.4 Million who voted Leave share my opinions about Indians or anything else?

I never said they did, which you know. I happen to agree with you about Indians. I think if we gave them more visas they would give a lot of UK citizens a big run for their money. A significant number of people do not like immigrants. They also don't like black or brown skinned people and assume that they are immigrants.

10% - is a best guess by people who have looked at what caused the Leave vote.

1tisILeClerc Wed 03-Jul-19 10:05:51

{Some may have liked the idea of UK not sending money to the EU, but prefer it to be spent in the UK. Remember not all EU members are net contributors to the EU pot. Of the 28 EU members there are 10 that pay in and 18 that take out. Look on the link;}

Now take this closer to home. I pay tax, part of which goes into a pot so that I can have roads to drive on, a health service for when I am sick and so on. Why should I pay anything towards people who don't work? I provide for my family by my labour, why should I be paying to single parents (often mothers) who can't work?

Why shouldn't I, who has never claimed benefits from the state, simply say 'bollocks, I will stop working and let others pay for me'?

LifeContinues Wed 03-Jul-19 10:12:17

things that can be said with certainty will happen and will improve the lives of the many

None of those who voted Leave or Remain can forecast the future with certainty. Maybe that is why it was a close result?

Only thing that can be said with certainty is that once UK has left the EU it will not be liable for ongoing subscription to the EU which is 50 Million per day gross before rebate. Whether that is sufficient to improve the lives of many, assuming improvement is defined as financial gain only, remains to be seen.

It won't be an overnight windfall. Even the most ardent Brexit supporters JRM has been quoted as saying it may take 50 years before the UK feels the full benefit of leaving the EU.

frozendaisy Wed 03-Jul-19 10:24:37

Benefits of leaving the EU, struggling a bit, but I think certain sectors where filling positions of employment the wages will go up, supply and demand, so in construction, care workers etc. saying this I think there will be fewer jobs overall so swings and roundabouts.

The issue with visa requirements at the moment is the Government say you need a 30K salary so that means the higher paid jobs will be filled by visa migration and the less skilled jobs will be for UK based employees, it will be a race to the bottom in certain sectors and does anyone think that UK employees seeing imported staff taking jobs earning more than they are that they are going to be OK with that? It's going to be very complicated.

frumpety Wed 03-Jul-19 10:25:55

To be fair to you LifeContinues , it doesn't have to be a financial gain, I would gladly take better environmental protections , so improved air quality or better workers rights or more public holidays or a free kitten for every household, just something real, tangible and beneficial.

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Peregrina Wed 03-Jul-19 10:25:57

Why shouldn't I, who has never claimed benefits from the state, simply say 'bollocks, I will stop working and let others pay for me'?

The same sort of arguments that one of my grandmothers used to employ? Why should I pay for education - because the younger generations are paying your pension.

Peregrina Wed 03-Jul-19 10:30:29

the wages will go up, supply and demand, so in construction, care workers

I am not sure of that, as far as care workers go. Japan has an aging population and discourages immigrants - guess which group of people are expected to look after the elderly?

It would be very good if it did happen that care workers were better paid and better trained so that it could be seen as the valuable job that it is.

ZazieTheCat Wed 03-Jul-19 10:36:57

If I was being cynical, I would say that this is just a recipe for impoverishing anyone in the UK who doesn’t have significant assets.

First, break the unions, get rid of social housing, access to employment rights, access to education and the benefits safety net. This means people in low skilled jobs lead transient and insecure lives, have to sell their labour for a pittance until they drop and hand over most of their wages in rents.

Secondly, ensure that people a few rungs up the skills ladder have the same conditions as those below. High housing and education costs, fierce competition for jobs, no access to employment rights, reduced ability for international mobility for work.

Then everyone’s just paying rent, mortgage fees and student loans. People desperate to avoid impoverishment. Plenty of opportunity to make money without working if you already have money! And plenty of cheap, compliant workers at all levels.

Was it Alan Clarke who used to grumble about how increasing the expectations of the lower orders meant it was impossible to get domestic servants?

LifeContinues Wed 03-Jul-19 10:46:42

Why shouldn't I, who has never claimed benefits from the state, simply say 'bollocks, I will stop working and let others pay for me'?

Nothing stopping you is there? My uncle applied that principle for almost 40 years from stopping work at age 38 to his death aged 77. Seemed to work out as well as he had more; cars, holidays, cigarettes and beer than his younger brothers who were working.

Oakenbeach Wed 03-Jul-19 12:56:57

There’s a really and tangible benefit to Corbyn that those Remainer Tory MPs agonising over how to vote in a VONC need to recognise!

As soon as we leave, Labour’s Brexit divisions will begin to heal as they can coalesce again to fight the Tories - arguments over a 2nd referendum or Labour’s Brexit position will become obsolete.

As the country struggles economically and socially in the months and years that follow Brexit - especially a no deal one - any public gratitude to the Tories for taking us out will quickly dissolve with Labour and Corbyn being the obvious beneficiaries.

The message is simple to those Tory MPs....

A) Oppose the Government in a VONC and you give the UK the best possible chance of avoiding a no-deal Brexit AND a majority Corbyn Government (and quite probably any Corbyn Government at all)

B) Support the Government in a VONC and get the double whammy of a no deal Brexit AND a massively increased chance of a Corbyn Government when the GE eventually comes (which given that the Government has an effective majority of 3, likely reducing to 2 after the Brecon by-election) probably won’t make it to 2022).

1tisILeClerc Wed 03-Jul-19 12:59:54

{Nothing stopping you is there?}

Just morals I suppose.

Coppersulphate Wed 03-Jul-19 14:17:49

Frumety,

Tangible benefits are not what drives many people. I know many people who voted leave. My entire family did.

For me it was the principle of ECJ overruling our courts, for others the control of the EU, for some the amount we have to pay, for my uncle it was a large increase in immigrants in his community.....he "felt" a stranger in his own town. That feeling is just as important as tangible benefits.
The "feeling" of being free and "taking back control of our destiny", or "sovereignty " is of over riding importance to some people. Maybe not to you.
All of these reasons are equally valid reasons for the vote.
You are an immigrant here but would rather live in Germany but you can't get a decent job in your home area. So, is the UK second best for you?
You can hardly expect a country to welcome you if that is your attitude to it.

frumpety Wed 03-Jul-19 14:30:56

Coppersulphate I honestly do not understand the last bit of your post , perhaps I am misreading it ?

The "feeling" of being free and "taking back control of our destiny", or "sovereignty " is of over riding importance to some people.

That may well be the case, but does that then mean that there are no real tangible benefits to leaving the EU ? And if it doesn't, what are they, one will do smile

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