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Can anyone tell me why the DUP are so hellbent on Brexit....

(225 Posts)

MNHQ have commented on this thread.

Oakenbeach Wed 26-Jun-19 19:48:41

.... even if that means we crash out in 31 October? It seems to make no sense for a party whose overriding top priority and raison d’etre is the remain in the UK... Don’t they see this that a no-deal Brexit is the biggest threat to the union for NI in a century? It seems totally insane, far more so even than the mainland British no-dealers! What am I missing?

RedSheep73 Wed 26-Jun-19 19:51:19

God knows. Nothing about the DUP makes sense to me!

MythicalBiologicalFennel Wed 26-Jun-19 19:55:50

They are representing the views of the people of Northern Ireland who overwhelmingly voted to leave.

Oh wait...

Mistigri Thu 27-Jun-19 12:43:49

It seems to make no sense

You're talking about a group of people with fundamentalist beliefs - some of them believe that the earth is less than 5000 years old.

Your assumption that this should "make sense" is where you are going wrong wink

AngelaScandal Thu 27-Jun-19 12:45:16

Because their financial backers want it

whymewhynow Thu 27-Jun-19 19:09:22

DUP are very bad at admitting that they got something wrong (vide: the Ash for Cash scandal which is a large part of the reason that Stormont is still suspended and could have been swiftly solved with a little humility early on). The DUP have never been keen on the Good Friday Agreement and may see the shitshow that will be Brexit as a way of breaking it - the fact that it potentially smashes everything else in the province is by the by. The DUP mainly represent people in the top North East corner of Northern Ireland who feel insulated from the border, many of whom voted Leave themselves. It would be nice to think that the DUP represent NI as a whole but we would be kidding ourselves if we did that.

bellinisurge Thu 27-Jun-19 20:39:46

It fucks over Ireland. It gives them a sense of connection with the rest of the UK. It gives them a chance to screw up GFA (which they hate). They are twats.
Does that answer it?

placemats Fri 28-Jun-19 08:32:36

As a party, the DUP hate the Good Friday Agreement and it hopes that this will be undermined by Brexit.

I think it needs to be careful what it wishes for. A no Deal Brexit will most probably lead to a United Ireland and by dent Scotland also breaking with the Union.

fairweathercyclist Fri 28-Jun-19 10:04:58

If/when the UK breaks up, who will the DUP want a union with? England? Scotland? Be an independent province? Clearly they won't want to unite with the rest of Ireland!

1tisILeClerc Fri 28-Jun-19 10:11:12

fairweathercyclist
I would hope that eventually something changes so that the people in Northern Ireland get the choice of the majority there, rather than the situation at present where the DUP has 'assumed' control.

placemats Fri 28-Jun-19 10:23:06

The vast majority of people in Northern Ireland voted yes for the Good Friday Agreement.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Northern_Ireland_Good_Friday_Agreement_referendum

71% of an 81% turnout in Northern Ireland voted yes.

94% in Ireland voted yes.

That's what I call a conclusive referendum result!

I don't think the DUP will have a say. They are clearly a vocal minority now. Shameful of May to have included them in the Government with a £billion pay off.

Daddybegood Sun 30-Jun-19 08:54:56

Since the early days of Britain's participation in Europe, the DUP have been against European integration.
It was led by Ian Paisley Sr (regarded as an institutional terrorist/fanatical racist throughout Europe) who attended a speech to the EU by the pope, and denounced him as the 'antichrist'.
Freedom of movement meant many European nationals particularly from places like Poland (I.e. predominantly Catholic) could live, work, retire in the province shifting the demographics in favour of Catholics. With the GFA this means that as time goes by a border poll would likely shift in favour of a United Ireland.
But many of those DUP voters in Antrim and Down are concerned they may have miscalculated. A no deal brexit could mean the end of many farms and seemingly the only winner would be the provos (IRA etc) who would use a new border in Ireland as a huge recruiting tool and possibly as a means to reignite terrorism (although they would be aware that bombs/shooting etc are self defeating.)
A solution is ofcourse to have a border in the Irish sea and many brexiteers don't mind the DUP being thrown under a bus, but they hold power in a dodgy bribed coalition and would likely side with Corbyn (oh the irony of siding with someone who has always championed civil rights in n. Ireland) in a confidence vote should they go for this.
In summary, they have really screwed up by supporting brexit but are too thick, bigoted etc to see the damage it will cause themselves....a bit like the rest of the UK

Shaggydog99 Tue 02-Jul-19 18:28:13

Hypocrites. Hate the backstop because it makes them different than the rest of th uk, but happy to be different when it comes to marriage equality and abortion.

Lambbuffet Tue 02-Jul-19 18:53:25

@Shaggydog99 happy to be different when it comes to marriage equality and abortion. How does this make them ‘different’ when these views are shared and held dear by the Roman Catholic Church? So are you saying that Roman Catholics who don’t share the same values and beliefs on marriage equality and abortion are hypocrites for going to their church?

bellinisurge Tue 02-Jul-19 19:23:58

No @Lambbuffet , Catholic here btw, what they are saying is that equal marriage and the right to choose are the law of the land in most of the UK. If DUPers want to be part of the UK, they should accept civil rights norms that apply in the UK.

bellinisurge Tue 02-Jul-19 19:29:33

Nobody is making anyone have an abortion - the clue is in right to choose; and no one is making anyone marry someone of the same sex. But in the UK, the law allows people to choose these things if they want to. Basic civil rights.

Shaggydog99 Tue 02-Jul-19 23:29:29

@lambbuffet It has nothing to do with an individual going to church, I don't know where you got that from. They are different in that they have different laws than the rest of the UK.

HigaDequasLuoff Tue 02-Jul-19 23:50:22

The Good Friday Agreement, and the existence of the European Union and the fact that both the UK and Eire are members of it, is what has allowed the violence and hatred in Northern Ireland to stop, and allowed people to just get along fine - with those who care about unity with Eire feeling pretty darn united but for a few minor technicalities and their next door neighbours who want unity with the UK also feeling pretty darn united. Everybody wins.

Except for the people who wanted to win by beating their enemies into submission. They don't win because their enemies are still thriving. The DUP hate this peace because it stops them from winning properly.

Isthisafreename Fri 05-Jul-19 22:37:22

@HigaDequasLuoff - please don't refer to Ireland as Éire unless you are speaking Irish. Ireland or The Republic of Ireland are both acceptable.

PepeLePew Fri 05-Jul-19 22:49:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PepeLePew Fri 05-Jul-19 22:50:40

Wrong thread, sorry. Will slink back off to 50 Books...blush

Peregrina Fri 05-Jul-19 22:51:50

I am going off at a bit of a tangent here bellinisurge, but there are plenty of Church goers where I live in S E England who are not really happy about same sex marriages. They might just tolerate a civil ceremony but don't like the idea of the Church being asked to perform them.

But I agree with your point - the DUP are only like the rest of the UK when it suits them.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 06:39:20

I think it needs to be careful what it wishes for. A no Deal Brexit will most probably lead to a United Ireland and by dent Scotland also breaking with the Union

Thought a United Ireland is what the Irish people wanted?

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 07:45:49

Then you know fuck all about Ireland.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 07:49:39

Then you know fuck all about Ireland

Wow. So help me to know. If NI does not want to unite with ROI what is all the border fuss about?

TeaKettleBell Sat 06-Jul-19 07:51:08

A united Ireland at this stage could be very problematic.
I find the DUP and their support baffling. I have a DUP MP and live in quite a sensible area but people still vote tribally.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 07:56:50

but people still vote tribally

So it is a historical issue that has become "we have always voted this way"

Like the mining villages in North East of UK where I am from. They vote Labour by tradition, but voted leave at the same time.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 08:17:42

@LifeContinues , seriously, you don't know?
OK, here it is : while obviously in theory Ireland would like NI back, people in Ireland are wary about a) the financial cost of being (re)unification and b) the social cost including the risk of violence. How do I know this? Well, apart from personal knowledge of being half Irish, the evidence is in the fact that , as part of GFA, the people of Ireland changed their constitution so that they no longer have a territorial claim on NI. This constitutional change was made via a referendum - as all constitutional changes are in Irish law. A properly constructed legally binding referendum, not the X-Factor esque one we had in 2016.
The priority for Ireland is peace and prosperity in NI. If there was a poll in NI on (re)unification with Ireland, it wouldn't happen unless Ireland also voted for it. Naturally it is pretty unlikely that of NI wanted it, Ireland would reject it. But they are not in a tearing hurry to get a territory which has a lot of people in it who hate it (DUP ers) and a population who will be losing the NHS - there is no NHS in Ireland.
In short, it's complicated. Which is why fucking with the GFA is not a good idea.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 08:26:00

A no Deal Brexit will create a hard border (WTO rules require control over your economic area). Ireland (as part of the EU and the UK will have no choice. The DUP hate Ireland and hate GFA (they voted against it) and so fucking with it suits their purpose.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 08:29:16

GFA is, in essence, a magic trick. It makes people who want to feel that way, feel like there is no border in Ireland. And people who live a border still, theoretically have one. And everyone else just gets on with life and trade etc. If you are old enough, you will remember how NOT like that life was before GFA.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 08:33:51

Which is why fucking with the GFA is not a good idea

GFA does not need to be touched. The WA made that clear, but what it did not do was to explain how to make sure there would be no hard border between NI and ROI and was left open ended in that respect.

A port as described by LeClerc seems to be the only option.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 08:36:10

If you are old enough, you will remember how NOT like that life was before GFA

I can remember the tension in the 70s and the bombings. Not just in NI, but in England too. Hence reason WA made it clear there shall be no hard border, but did not detail how to achieve that requirement.

MrsBertBibby Sat 06-Jul-19 08:36:14

Really interesting posts Bellini. Thanks.

Rystall Sat 06-Jul-19 08:37:24

@bellinisurge
That’s a brilliant explanation. Thank you. Don’t think I’ve ever seen a more succinct explanation. And your ‘magic trick’ analogy is superb ( I will be using that!!). Do you write for a living?

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 08:41:47

It makes people who want to feel that way, feel like there is no border in Ireland. And people who live a border still, theoretically have one. And everyone else just gets on with life and trade etc

So it is about intangibles and what people feel.

Inniu Sat 06-Jul-19 08:42:24

I would not be surprised if we eventually discover there is a very large amount of cash involved in the DUPs position. Not the money for NI they got for confidence and supply but personal money to key people.

As for the rest, the DUP are bully’s, they want to be in charge/in power and dominate other people. So being out of the EU suits that narrative.

On a referendum on a united Ireland, I think it would be thought through more than the Brexit one. There would be a Citizens Assembly first so the options and potential consequences could be explored. The recent referendum on a woman’s right to chose was an amazing example of a well considered referendum.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 08:42:24

@LifeContinues THIS is why I am so strongly against No Deal. Food supply issues ... all that shit and people being grumpy because they don't get their unicorns. Frankly, I don't care. I'm a prepper. I'm set up at home for tough economic situations. All my family including my dd are entitled to EU passports via my late mother (an Irish born economic migrant who came to UK in the early days of the NHS to do work that British people wouldn't do). I'd rather we didn't have food supply problems and grumpiness but I am ready for it.
Screwing with GFA? I absolutely reject it.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 08:43:48

"So it is about intangibles and what people feel." That and Actual Peace. Which is a bit more substantial than feelz.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 08:45:42

@Rystall , that's very kind of you. No I don't write for a living. My job requires me to analyse arguments for and against. And to be polite to people I disagree with. No such constraints on here.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 08:51:24

Seems to be that DUP is unpopular among Irish people. I hear the same about SNP from Scottish colleagues who are 50+. The younger Scots, under 30s, seem to be the opposite and think SNP are great.

No such constraints on here

Hahaha. So MN is bellinisurge's release valve to make up for the forced politeness at work.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 08:55:09

@LifeContinues , GFA insists on no infrastructure at the border. There may well, in a few years time, be a fantastic technological solution and we will all look back and wonder what the fuss was about. That would be great. But it isn't around now. And until it turned up, we would have had the backstop.That's why it was in there. Theresa May, pandering to the DUP, made the whole of the UK tied up with the EU in a non-Brexit-y way after we left via WA. It didn't have to be like that. Make the whole of NI, in essence, a Freeport or special economic area immediately after Brexit with any checks done en route to mainland UK - with infrastructure , presumably at mainland ports if necessary.
TheEU would have had no problem with that. The only people who had a problem with that were the DUP. If they weren't propping up the Tory Government, I expect there might have been a bung to shut them up and to tell them to suck it up.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 08:56:00

"DUP is unpopular among Irish people" you do realise what an idiotic statement that is. 😂😂😂😂😂😂

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 09:00:42

The only people who had a problem with that were the DUP

So it was the DUP who blocked the idea of Freeport/Economic Area. Sounds like they want to use Brexit to put GFA in the bin. If so how were they ever elected?

Isthisafreename Sat 06-Jul-19 09:01:23

@LifeContinues - A port as described by LeClerc seems to be the only option.

Not quite. As I explained to you on a different thread, the nature of cross-border trade in Ireland means that it is impractical for that trade to go through a port. The additional cross-border cooperation in areas such as emergency services, heath etc also needs to be facilitated.

The port referred to by LeClerc would only deal with trade between NI and roUK. NI would need to remain within the CU and the SM.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 09:02:16

I spent some time in Hong Kong before the handover. There was a Chinese economic buffer zone around it in the Shenzhen province. I freely admit not to know enough about the economic details of that but it seems like something we could have used as an idea here. Obviously current events in HK show how screwing with an international agreement and, most importantly, people's expectations of how it works based on direct experience, can lead to trouble.

Sakura7 Sat 06-Jul-19 09:03:56

Then you know fuck all about Ireland.

That's pretty unfair. Most Irish people do want a united Ireland. Polling has consistently shown that a Yes vote would win a referendum in ROI, and we know that a majority of nationalists in NI want it. I'm sure you're aware that there was a poll last year showing a majority in NI (and not just nationalists) would support unity in the event of a no deal Brexit.

I'm from Dublin and amongst my friends and family, reunification is not an issue

Oakenbeach Sat 06-Jul-19 09:06:44

@LifeContinues

The clue is in the name... the DUP is the Democratic Unionist Party, and by union, they mean the union of the United Kingdom.

They are more passionate about remaining part of the UK and not becoming part of an United Ireland than literally anything else!

This is why they were so vehemently against the “backstop” as it risked NI’s customs arrangements being aligned to Ireland (and the EU) rather than the rest of the UK, if arrangements for managing frictionless trade across the Irish border hadn’t been resolved by the end of the transition period.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Protocol

Hence my question, why would they support a “no-deal”, when that would you create the instability that would risk NI becoming part of Ireland, the very thing they don’t want more than anything else.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 09:07:06

NI would need to remain within the CU and the SM

Which is why the WA was rejected. So how do you solve the cross border trade between NI and ROI?

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 09:07:06

"
So it was the DUP who blocked the idea of Freeport/Economic Area. Sounds like they want to use Brexit to put GFA in the bin. If so how were they ever elected?"

Quite apart from "don't you know this already", they are, or rather were, the largest party in Stormont. Just. Unlike Sinn FeinnMPs (another bunch of wankers before you think I love them) they take their seats at Westminster. So their small numbers in Westminster, combined with the Tories, were enough to prop up a minority Tory government with a "confidence and supply" arrangement. This meant that they would always support the Prime Minister in any vote of no confidence in Westminster and, generally, back any Tory legislation (supply the votes). In return, they got a big bung for NI. Disproportionate to their actual support.

Isthisafreename Sat 06-Jul-19 09:11:40

Excellent summary @bellinisurge. Just one small addition. You state that Ireland doesn't have the NHS, which is correct. However, 37% of the population have a medical card which entitles them to free medical care. This is means tested. Many more, including pensioners, are entitled to free access to GPS but pay for prescriptions. Everybody is entitled to free prescriptions once they have spent a certain amount each month (I think it's around €120, so fairly high), everyone is entitled to free consultant care and free hospital treatment, although, other than in the case of an emergency, the waiting lists can be long. It's quick for things like cancer assessment, slow for a knee replacement.

Sakura7 Sat 06-Jul-19 09:11:56

Sorry posted to soon, it's not a big issue but if asked the majority would support it. Yes there are concerns about the economy and security, and there would a significant No vote. But ultimately it would pass as people feel it's righting a wrong that was done to our country.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 09:12:28

@Sakura7 , it's my experience talking to my mum - born 1930s - that generally, yes, they want NI. But generally not gung ho, at all costs. And the evidence of the GFA referendum. Peace and prosperity is the key wish.

Inniu Sat 06-Jul-19 09:13:42

@LifeContinues
The DUP have never had any electoral support in Ireland with anyone ever. They have support with a sizable minority in Northern Ireland.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 09:16:42

"Which is why the WA was rejected. So how do you solve the cross border trade between NI and ROI?"
It was principally rejected because the rest of the UK would be tied in for a couple of years. Because of the redline pretending that NI (which has different rules on civil rights stuff) is "just the same".

Isthisafreename Sat 06-Jul-19 09:18:14

@LifeContinues - Which is why the WA was rejected. So how do you solve the cross border trade between NI and ROI?

I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall here. I have explained to you on another thread that it can only be resolved by going with the WA, changing the UK red lines, or abandoning brexit. There is no magic wand. There is no technical solution in existence than can be used at present.

Sakura7 Sat 06-Jul-19 09:20:34

bellinisurge Indeed, it's not a top priority but if/when the situation arises, a UI will be supported by the majority of Irish people. I don't think it's fair to jump down someone's throat for making a reasonable assumption that most Irish people are in favour of a UI.

Inniu Sat 06-Jul-19 09:25:07

@bellinisurge
I think a referendum on a United Ireland would be nuanced. They would try to find an acceptable solution and then hold the referendum. It would only be held in such a way that it would pass.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 09:27:19

@Sakura7 , I'm sorry if you think I am jumping down @LifeContinues throat. But they have spent days posting No Deal nonsense and wilfully misunderstanding the complex question of NI. And so, there is only so much patience you can have with that.
I am flabbergasted that someone who claims to be so knowledgeable about all things Brexit (not you @Sakura7 ) can be so I'll informed about the consequences for NI.

Inniu Sat 06-Jul-19 09:27:33

I should add that Enda Kenny, the then Irish PM/Taoiseach tried to warn/advice Cameron about the blunt Brexit referendum.

sashh Sat 06-Jul-19 09:28:16

No *@Lambbuffet , Catholic here btw, what they are saying is that equal marriage and the right to choose are the law of the land in most of the UK. If DUPers want to be part of the UK, they should accept civil rights norms that apply in the UK*

And in Ireland. OK I know abortion hasn't been completely sorted but the 8th was repealed by a huge majority.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 09:28:38

it can only be resolved by going with the WA, changing the UK red lines, or abandoning brexit

WA does not work as open ended on the border issue.

Abandoning Brexit turns back Democracy back to the times when only the wealthy elite could vote.

So that leaves the red lines.

Which red lines should change?

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 09:31:38

@Inniu , I have little doubt that a referendum in Ireland on (re)unification would be in favour of getting NI back. But it is quite shocking that No Dealers don't get the complexities.
They think it is all about Remainers being mean and stamping on the will of the people because Remainers are all metropolitan elitists who "don't understand " the People.
No, dear No Dealers, it's because GFA is a delicate balancing act that, contrary to all experience, actually works. And No Deal messes with it.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 09:32:13

posting No Deal nonsense and wilfully misunderstanding the complex question of NI

I agree that No deal is not the best option, but seems likely at the moment. Not wilfully misunderstanding the NI subject, just don't have the same knowledge as someone who is from Ireland

1tisILeClerc Sat 06-Jul-19 09:33:15

{The port referred to by LeClerc would only deal with trade between NI and roUK. NI would need to remain within the CU and the SM.}

Yes, NI would remain in CU/SM for the duration. It is part of the EU 'no deal' plan. Although DUP and others might oppose it, sanctions brought against them by the EU/USA or others would change the balance of power. Despite the bollocks spouted by many in the UK government, the UK is on the back foot and will ultimately be told what it is going to get, if it can't be bothered to negotiate properly.
A United Ireland may come about in 30 years or so, possibly earlier it can only be speculation, but to attach the decision onto Brexit would be impossible.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 09:33:34

Which red line should change? The one where we are treated the same as NI for NI sake.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 09:36:14

@LifeContinues , I'm not from Ireland as other more knowledgeable posters on here will tell you. But I knew from day 1 that GFA was a problem- talked about it on here all the time. It is literally the only thing stopping Brexit. And it can be fixed with an agreement on a border in the sea so that NI can continue to work and trade with Ireland as it does now.

bellinisurge Sat 06-Jul-19 09:37:51

It is actually in DUP interest to have NI as a special economic zone with all the advantages to the local economy that this brings. It makes (re)unification less attractive.

Sakura7 Sat 06-Jul-19 09:39:31

bellinisurge ok fair enough, wasn't aware of that poster's history.

Peregrina Sat 06-Jul-19 09:49:53

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Yewtown Sat 06-Jul-19 10:01:21

The answer to the Brexit question has to be a general election. Hopefully the DUP will lose their stranglehold on Parliament and then the WA can pass. Most sensible people here in Northern Ireland are able to see the economic advantage that a border in the Irish Sea can bring.
A PP was correct in surmising the DUP's current position is probably financially beneficial to them. Follow the money

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 10:14:46

@Yewtown and anyone else who has mentioned financial incentives for the DUP to have a no deal Brexit - from who/where/how/why is this money coming????

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 10:17:32

Btw when you're talking about 'Irish' or 'Ireland', can you please take care to distinguish between Northern Ireland and Ireland in your posts as they are NOT one and the same and have very very very different cultures, history, politics and views on things.

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 10:20:40

And just to say, I'm Irish (NOT NI) and the last thing I would want now would be a United Ireland. Who wants backwards DUP supporters and similar to be part of our electorate? shock confused

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 10:22:22

I feel and a very great many other Irish people feel that a United Ireland (UI) would be a step backwards for Ireland, when we are finally progressing and prospering as a country.

1tisILeClerc Sat 06-Jul-19 10:34:49

Thump
It is very difficult, particularly being born English, to be involved in any discussion about Ireland as the whole situation is so highly charged.
The decision must be made by the residents alone.
I am not suggesting for a moment that there should be a united Ireland, but I doubt the DUP would survive long if there was unity. Their views, as the 'party of NO' would be dissipated.
The politics and fortunes of the UK is about to change radically, so sitting it out, wherever possible is the safest option.

1tisILeClerc Sat 06-Jul-19 10:38:17

{(UI) would be a step backwards for Ireland, when we are finally progressing and prospering as a country.}

As with German reunification, I would have at least some faith that the EU would be able to help smooth the transition, although a lot of negotiations would be necessary. As I said, a project for later.

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 10:40:56

A project for over my dead body!

TeaKettleBell Sat 06-Jul-19 10:42:24

There has already proven to be dirty money with the DUP and Brexit.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44624299
The party is also incredibly corrupt.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a deal with the DUP and the Conservatives to keep Stormont mothballed. Karen Bradley certainly isn’t a brain of Britain.
The problem they’ll have under unification is what to do with the Loyalists. The ROI does not have the experience to deal with terrorists on that scale. The PSNI has retired its officers who could have handled it.

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 10:44:53

Hopefully, a majority would realise that a UI now is not going to be the same as the idealised vision it might have been 100 years ago. Too much water under the bridge. No way could Ireland take on the complete political mess that is NI.

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 10:45:27

Thanks @TeaKettleBell - I'll have a read of that link.

1tisILeClerc Sat 06-Jul-19 10:48:44

{A project for over my dead body!}
I am afraid I find that a disappointing attitude as it is one that perpetuates the problems.
The DUP are backwards looking and divisive, but it would be good to hope that the majority in NI want to enjoy a happy, safe and secure life, the same as everyone else.

LifeContinues Sat 06-Jul-19 10:49:35

A United Ireland would appear to solve many issues and give many people what they wanted.

Majority of Irish (NI and ROI) get what they want

The majority of NI who voted remain get what they want

WA can pass as there is no border issue to resolve

The two member states who voted Leave, Wales and England, get what they want.

That leaves Scotland then to decide what they want by having a Second Referendum.

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 10:51:39

Please don't assume that a majority want a UI. I'm sceptical about any polls saying so.

1tisILeClerc Sat 06-Jul-19 10:54:41

Ireland has to 'unwind' from 800 years of resentment over past wrongdoings and as such UI is NOT the solution to Brexit.
How the people feel in another generation, maybe more is where it gets important.

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 10:56:34

What a majority wants @1tisILeClerc and what would actually happen in real terms in the event of a UI in the next decade are vastly different things.
In real terms, in the event, the DUP and unionists and loyalists would re-start violence, with Dublin now becoming THE target. While it's a lovely notion to have Ireland a nation once again, in reality it's simply not feasible without massive uproar, upheaval, destruction and madness on a scale not yet seen!

It would end in tears and would be very bloody. People polled probably are thinking about the lovely idea, without having thought it through at all - the run up to a referendum on such a notion would open their eyes.

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 10:59:50

NI is very similar to the situation in Palestine. There has been no resolution there and there will be no easy answer in NI. They're too difficult to deal with.

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 11:03:27

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zSWlAHD29M

Bear in mind that this is the sentiment you're dealing with in NI.

1tisILeClerc Sat 06-Jul-19 11:13:22

Thump
What you want, or it appears you don't want, is not necessarily what you children or grandchildren might want. You seem to be admitting defeat before actually trying, and it is the negative attitude that is all pervasive.
Start out with 3 sheets of paper. Problems on one, aspirations on the second and scribble possible ways to achieve the aspirations on the third.
The situation in Palestine only became an acute problem when the British waded in and stirred up unrest. There are of course many complications in that region but it is the failure of diplomacy and politicians that allows it to continue, particularly when the playing field is far from level due to external influences.

The achievements made in the Belfast agreement were deemed 'impossible', but they have led to 20 years of relative peace. The progress made could endure if the UK government had sufficient integrity and nouse, but the ham fisted approach to Brexit is likely to create more unrest.

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 11:21:54

What you may perceive as a negative attitude is a realistic opinion on how things will actually play out in reality.
You don't know how vociferously unionists oppose a UI.
These are not reasonable human beings we're talking about here.

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 11:24:57

And I for one am not willing to dabble with the potential for my children dying at the hands of loyalist and unionist paramilitaries in the event of a United Ireland. You can see still that 20 years post GFA, so a generation later, unionists still hold significant power. The feelings are as strong today as they were 30 years ago among those people. This will not change in my lifetime. And therefore, a UI would be lunacy to consider in my lifetime.

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 11:30:52

The economic implications of a UI would be detrimental to Ireland. When/if a debate on UI occurs, at the end of the day, people are going to think about their lives, the lives of their children and their wallets. Only ideological nationalists from Ireland (the Republic) would vote for a UI. You've got to understand that the older IRA supporters/fenians/republicans are now mostly dead and gone - younger voters never had Ireland as a single nation under Britain. They're used to Ireland being Ireland and NI being a separate country. They really don't have that same longing to be 'a nation once again' as their ancestors. Long and short of it? They couldn't give a fuck about having NI.

1tisILeClerc Sat 06-Jul-19 11:36:26

Thump
So what is your solution, keep killing each other forever?

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 11:38:37

I think NI needs to remain part of the UK, the DUP needs to be gotten out of power and a soft border remains.

DesMartinsPetCat Sat 06-Jul-19 11:38:40

Thought a United Ireland is what the Irish people wanted?

No, it’s a financial cesspit and ROI would be mad to allow their economy to take that hit.

Plus, full union with either state (ROI or UK) will lead to a resurgence in violence. Nobody wants that.
Except the DUP.

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 11:41:28

A hard border will raise Nationalist tensions among NI citizens. AND the staunch nationalists in Ireland.
Nothing would satisfy the DUP more than a hard border again.
I think the DUP knows that UI isn't going to happen, hence their preference for no deal - which will give them a hard border.

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 11:43:03

You have to realise that the DUP don't hold what I would call normal political views. They are extremists.

Sakura7 Sat 06-Jul-19 11:43:11

Please don't assume that a majority want a UI. I'm sceptical about any polls saying so.

There is not a snowball's chance in hell that the electorate in ROI will reject it, especially if the people of NI already voted in favour. You can ignore polls that don't agree with your opinion all you want, but it doesn't change the situation.

I know plenty of people who share your view, but there's no evidence to suggest that it's anywhere approaching a majority view.

For all the downsides (which the EU would give us significant assistance with), there are many positives in having an all island economy.

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 11:43:29

@DesMartinsPetCat Agreed.

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 11:45:08

For all the downsides

You think when actually told to put their money where their mouth is that Irish people would risk peace in Ireland? Not a snowball's chance in hell!

Thump Sat 06-Jul-19 11:47:49

Plus, I don't think that how NI voted would particularly sway Ireland in how it would vote.
Please don't think we're similar.

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