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There really is no point trying to persuade Leavers....

(524 Posts)
Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 19:21:56

As the title suggests really. There is no point trying to reason a debate with them as they are totally tunnel-visioned. Loads of them seem to think we should leave without a deal and go on to WTO rules.

They blame the Remainers in parliament for us having not left yet.

They blame Remainers in general for, well, seemingly anything and everything.

They blame the EU for us not having left yet.

They spout myth as if it was fact.

I despair. There really is no point trying to reason with them.

I'm at the point where I feel there is nothing left to say on the topic so let them have their 'victory' so at least they will have no one to blame.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:26:11

Not really Bear. I just don't get the why's and how's of hiw they could. I think I'm confused. I'm trying to be logical and think, don't argue with them, it gives them ammunition, just let them have their way then surely, SURELY, they cant blame any external factors.

But seeing how they already do, I know they will carry on in the same vain.

Peregrina Tue 25-Jun-19 20:27:15

I really don't know why Leavers don't have more anger about the lack of money for the NHS. This was the one tangible promise made.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:29:31

Pergrina - about the NHS bus lie. Leave voters don't believe the Leave campaign lied. I found this out earlier when I headed over to the LML page.

Bearbehind Tue 25-Jun-19 20:30:13

closer the thing you need to get your head round is that there is no logic here.

Leavers who still insist on leaving at all costs have targeted one thing, immigration, and nothing else matters.

Rational thought and reality don’t enter into it.

I’ve come across far too many who think Asians, Indians and Pakistanis are all going home too when we leave. Even those who are British citizens. It’s disgraceful.

Iambuffy Tue 25-Jun-19 20:31:05

I've been pondering this for many months now...

The majority of leave votes came from a very specific demographic.

Not all!...But a statistical majority.

Older >65
Low educational attainment
From deprived areas

I realise that for a lot of the over 65s concerns about educational opportunities, FOM, jobs, mortgages are not a priority.

For quite a few leavers, they can and indeed seem happy to weather the coming financial storm.

However, I was - sadly - in a and e with my mum again last week (cardiac event) and as I stood in majors for hours and hours and saw patients come and go, and then in MAU and then on the ward, it struck me (as it always does...) that 99% of them were over 65.

The NHS is on its knees.

Its currently only still viable due to the goodwill of its staff.

And it is these very leavers - older with complex and chronic issues - and in poorer areas - who will suffer.

But they sure as hell won't blame themselves voting leave!

It'll be remainers (btw WHY are remainers supposed to help with this utter clusterfuck??) Or the nasty EU!!

Sigh.

I'm so very tired of it all.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:31:47

I've seen that too, Bear. It's so horrible.

AnnaComnena Tue 25-Jun-19 20:32:04

I swore I would never get into this again, but very well.

I remember when we joined. We were promised a Common Market, not Ever Closer (political) Union. I was dubious then, but thought the people advocating it must know what they were talking about. Fool me once. I was a student then. I'm older and better educated now.

I thought the single currency was a bad idea when it was introduced, and nothing that has happened since has caused me to change my mind. I know we're not in it, but we're having to watch the devastating effects on the Mediterranean countries. What other bad ideas might be introduced in the future which, if we were to stay, we might not be able to negotiate an opt out for?

The EU's administration is expensive at best, corrupt at worst, unwieldy, unrepresentative. But they show no interest in reforming themselves.

I believe the EU is too big and will sooner or later break up or collapse in on itself, as history shows supra-national entities nearly always do. I'd rather we extricated ourselves in an orderly fashion before that happens, and we may never get another chance.

I wasn't misled or fooled by the Leave campaign. I didn't pay much attention to it. I was looking for the Remain campaign to give me a reason to vote Remain. It didn't. If anything, it hardened my resolve to vote Leave.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:33:06

Sorry to hear about your mum Buffy flowers

Iambuffy Tue 25-Jun-19 20:34:26

Well you're not wrong about the remain campaign.

Utterly dire.

Thank you. She's home and doing better x

Bearbehind Tue 25-Jun-19 20:34:31

Literally CBA to respond in detail to any of that Anne, it’s straight from the Leavers book of bollocks.

UserAlice Tue 25-Jun-19 20:38:26

The conclusion I have come to is that a number (possibly majority) of Leavers are purely emotive voters.

If you ask a Leaver why they want to Leave you are more likely to get an emotive response like “taking back control” or whatever. The Brexiteers in parliament and government fuel this.

If you ask a Remainer why they voted to remain, they will almost always have a solid list of reasons why they think we should remain.

That is why they find it so difficult to change their mind or listen to reason; because reason never came into it in the first place.

magpieC Tue 25-Jun-19 20:41:47

Brexit as a religion: www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/brexit-how-britain-was-undone-by-the-religious-fervour-of-a-deluded-few?fbclid=IwAR3Bt9SkPi7Uhv1ofSdXwrQO8nr9eursYOlMd5yf7W0vqi_o8n45qnX26GM

AnnaComnena Tue 25-Jun-19 20:42:18

Literally CBA to respond in detail to any of that Anne, it’s straight from the Leavers book of bollocks.

Thereby proving my point. Wish I hadn't wasted my time. (You could at least have read enough to get my name right.)

PouncerDarling Tue 25-Jun-19 20:42:55

I haven't heard one decent argument for it in three years. I've given up asking. The response generally turned out to be the equivalent of the Union Jack being held up in my face.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:43:32

Thank you for answering honestly, Anna.

I'm not going to argue with you, you have your reasons. I'd perhaps like to get a better understanding from you, a Leaver. Do you see an 'Ever closer political union' as a bad thing? Could you explain to me why you do or don't? I'm not looking for an argument, I have my own opinion and I'm not going to foist it upon you.

You're more than likely correct in saying the EUs admin is costly and probably very difficult to reform, even as an inside member. But again I have my own thoughts and feelings overall which I wont bore you with.

The single currency has shown its weak points and failings but we have opt-outs. In fairness I think the global financial system probably needs an overhaul, so it's not specifically an EU-issue to me.

One final question to you Anna, and I'm not looking to have an online argument. But what would you consider to be an orderly fashion for leaving? Would that mean a Withdrawal Agreement?

Bearbehind Tue 25-Jun-19 20:44:01

That was a typo - apologies.

There was literally nothing in your post with any substance so there’s nothing worth discussing.

Iambuffy Tue 25-Jun-19 20:44:05

Ds1 (16) had said the same.

Brexit has become a religion.

Bearbehind Tue 25-Jun-19 20:44:56

The response generally turned out to be the equivalent of the Union Jack being held up in my face.

That sums it up.

It’s a Little Britain mentality through and through.

Bearbehind Tue 25-Jun-19 20:47:28

OMG I’ve just looked on the Leave FB page! It’s unbelievable.

They are still seriously saying the EU will cave in at the last minute instead of no deal.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:50:36

The Leave page is pure Dogma. I just read the comments, I never argue as theres no point. I think it will go one of two ways. We will leave without a deal or Brexit will get kicked into the long grass.

I don't see how arguing the toss with people is the answer though.

Peregrina Tue 25-Jun-19 20:52:15

I believe though that even the 27 are questioning the Ever closer union.
If we want to continue to trade with the EU we will have to accept their laws - so better surely to have a say in making those laws?

Is what we are doing now, extricating ourselves in an orderly fashion? If that were the case there would be a recognition that a likely timescale would be ten years and we would have to say what it is we want. I see no vision of what we want from Leavers, except from disaster capitalists and those who appear to want to be in hock to the USA.

PouncerDarling Tue 25-Jun-19 20:53:00

I can only stomach a few of those comments at a time. They're unintentionally hilarious, often. Which would be enjoyable if it was so incredibly dangerous for the country.

Backyard99 Tue 25-Jun-19 20:55:10

I voted remain, I know many friends and family who didn’t.

We’ve discussed our reasons amicably and out of interest; reading this thread, I’m struck by a couple of things.

Why would you presume to show such an unhealthily controlling interest in the political opinions of others, of whom you speak pejoratively, and in a lumpen mass as ‘they all’?

It is exactly this attitude that would make me vote leave in another referendum.

I’ve never seen such lack of listening, tarring as thick racists and dismissive downright rudeness as that shown by my fellow leavers. It’s embarrassing.

Just because they are not your own reasons, who are you to decide another’s voting decision is wrong?

There’s a word for that.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:57:23

Is what we are doing now, extricating ourselves in an orderly fashion? If that were the case there would be a recognition that a likely timescale would be ten years

There's not even a Gantt chart. There is nothing orderly about it.

Peregrina Tue 25-Jun-19 20:58:30

So if the EU does collapse in on itself, will our withdrawal orderly or not prevent us from being caught as the debris falls?

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