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There really is no point trying to persuade Leavers....

(524 Posts)
Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 19:21:56

As the title suggests really. There is no point trying to reason a debate with them as they are totally tunnel-visioned. Loads of them seem to think we should leave without a deal and go on to WTO rules.

They blame the Remainers in parliament for us having not left yet.

They blame Remainers in general for, well, seemingly anything and everything.

They blame the EU for us not having left yet.

They spout myth as if it was fact.

I despair. There really is no point trying to reason with them.

I'm at the point where I feel there is nothing left to say on the topic so let them have their 'victory' so at least they will have no one to blame.

bellinisurge Tue 25-Jun-19 19:24:22

They will either ignore this or come on saying how mean you are.
I have been prepared to compromise insofar as I will accept a Brexit that means we don't mess up GFA. Like, say, the WA.
But that isn't Brexit-y enough and I am obviously some sort of wrecker.

Bearbehind Tue 25-Jun-19 19:27:27

so at least they will have no one to blame.

Oh they will - it will be the EU’s fault, Remainers fault and anyone else’s fault for not letting us have our cake and eat it.

I agree there’s no point in discussing it though - it’s all about immigration and they don’t give a damn about anything else.

Peregrina Tue 25-Jun-19 19:41:36

Oh they will - it will be the EU’s fault, Remainers fault and anyone else’s fault for not letting us have our cake and eat it.

Absolutely - look how the Tories have milked "It's all Labour's fault" up to now, even though it's the better part of a decade since Labour were in power.

ThereWillBeAdequateFood Tue 25-Jun-19 19:45:26

I know one Leaver fairly well. He thinks it will be worth it “in the long term”

He’s just not prepared to say how long, or how shit it will be.

It’s like trying to reason someone out of a religious faith (not that you should do that). They’re not religious due to logical reasoning so you can use reason to turn them against their religion.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 19:47:50

It's so frustrating. If we let them get on with their sacred Leave, how can they blame anyone when it all turns to rats shit apart from themselves?

How on earth do they extrapolate that? If boris or whoever turns round and says 'right, were leaving the EU on 31st October without a deal', they would absolutely rejoice. Then I give it a week, tops that they'll be saying it's not what they bargained for, but seriously how would they blame Boris, or the EU, or remainers or anyone for giving them what they asked for??

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 19:50:17

Its just one big cult. I stupidly wandered over to the Leave pages of FB. I never comment, I just read the posts to try to understand the other sides point of view.

It's almost a dogmatic religion in itself.

Peregrina Tue 25-Jun-19 19:51:09

It will still be our fault for 'not getting behind them'. As it stands, Remainers are supposed to be doing all the work.

ATrampsVest Tue 25-Jun-19 19:54:11

Look up cognitive dissonance. Basically it's human nature that once you publicly declare a belief you become stuck to it and keep defending it no matter how much evidence you are shown to the contrary. It actually takes a huge amount of personal strength to admit you are wrong about something. That's why politics is so entrenched.

AnnaComnena Tue 25-Jun-19 19:54:25

it’s all about immigration and they don’t give a damn about anything else.

Despite many Leavers having explained their reasons repeatedly, in detail, over the last few years. And you wonder why Leavers don't want to talk to you.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 19:56:31

It is throughly depressing. In response to Bellini's post, there are literally huge swathes of them who are against the idea of the WA, claiming that is not what they voted for, they were given the option of Leave or Remain, and they collectively voted OUT! 🤦‍♀️

Some brave soul, asked a number of them, what kind Leave they actually voted for at the time and the response is always the same. Just to Leave. No mention of a Norway style agreement as cited by their great Demigod, Farage.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 19:59:17

Anna - I don't believe we've spoken before as I tend not post about Brexit (until now). Would you mind telling me what it was about and what Leavers voted for? Feel free to say no, I am after all, just another internet stranger.

lljkk Tue 25-Jun-19 20:03:01

Defeatist attitude. Bj said so himself, so must be true. That's the only thing that made Brexit difficult.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:06:09

Despite many Leavers having explained their reasons repeatedly, in detail, over the last few years

Really am eager to hear these reasons. Haven't found any on Leave Means Leave page, apart EU army, Lisbon Treaty (which can be fact checked and is untrue) and unelected eurocrats. Are these the reasons?

Bearbehind Tue 25-Jun-19 20:07:52

Despite many Leavers having explained their reasons repeatedly, in detail, over the last few years. And you wonder why Leavers don't want to talk to you.

Absolutely, because none of their reasons made any sense or are not actually possible in practice which leads me to conclude it is actually only about immigration.

rosie39forever Tue 25-Jun-19 20:10:17

Good luck with getting any kind of answer, I've asked Friends, family, colleagues and randoms on the internet how my life's going to be better after Brexit, I've asked repeatedly for 3 years and still not one can give me a positive answer, leavers have become one massive cult and they don't give a shite about people loosing their jobs or any other disasters is outcome.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:11:12

I guess Anna won't be coming back. I don't even want to argue the toss with a Leaver as there isn't much point. I'd only be blamed for being a remoaner so it's easier to let them think what they want to think and say nothing.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:14:44

I think they see it as being patronised if they are asked their reasons. I can sort of vaguely understand why that is.

It's the human psyche. They've opted for something and now they're being questioned on their choices and made to justify them. It makes them feel victimised I guess 🤷‍♀️

Mainlandeurope Tue 25-Jun-19 20:15:24

I'm almost at the point where I want Boris and I want No Deal and then I want utter collapse and for all the leavers to then own it except of course they won't will they...hmm

HollowTalk Tue 25-Jun-19 20:15:27

Even Jacob Rees Mogg said it would take fifty years for everything to be alright!

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:18:29

That's exactly how I feel Mainland. But I find it rather interesting that there would be attempts to blame anyone but themselves.

YetAnotherThing Tue 25-Jun-19 20:19:44

The most annoying thing is that when it all turns to shit it will still be the remainers fault or the EUs fault. But never their fucking fault for voting for such shite.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:20:55

But how would they come to that conclusion?

Bearbehind Tue 25-Jun-19 20:21:51

But I find it rather interesting that there would be attempts to blame anyone but themselves.

Do you honestly see anyone who refuses to acknowledge reality now, actually accepting they were wrong when it all goes to rat shit?

Peregrina Tue 25-Jun-19 20:22:09

Despite many Leavers having explained their reasons repeatedly, in detail, over the last few years. And you wonder why Leavers don't want to talk to you.

I have to differ. It's nearly all been soundbites. When someone comes along and says Law such and such stops me doing.... then I will begin to believe that they have reasons and not blind faith. In three years I don't think we have seen any concrete examples.

When we do dig deep into various laws it's often found that the UK has added their own stricter interpretation, so the blame should really attach to Westminster.

The only definite examples we do see are about controlling immigration. We can then point out that successive UK Governments have failed to remove EU citizens who are not self-supporting after 3 months. Or we are told the EU is a white Christian club. There is nothing stopping Westminster now from letting in more citizens from the rest of the world including Muslims, Hindus, black or brown skinned. When told these things Leavers don't seem to have answers.

OK the disaster capitalist have the answer - they can make a fortune on currency movements, but I doubt if that includes many of us posting here.

We have seen examples of damage already caused by Brexit. I have lost a jolly good dentist because his wife worked for the EMA so they moved to Amsterdam. He was coming up to retirement, but I reckon I would have had five more years with him.

Oxford hospitals are now suffering acute staff shortages because EU staff are leaving.

My own DS has moved abroad, so I don't see as much of my grandson as I used to and would like to.

These to me are tangible examples of the damage that Brexit has already done.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:26:11

Not really Bear. I just don't get the why's and how's of hiw they could. I think I'm confused. I'm trying to be logical and think, don't argue with them, it gives them ammunition, just let them have their way then surely, SURELY, they cant blame any external factors.

But seeing how they already do, I know they will carry on in the same vain.

Peregrina Tue 25-Jun-19 20:27:15

I really don't know why Leavers don't have more anger about the lack of money for the NHS. This was the one tangible promise made.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:29:31

Pergrina - about the NHS bus lie. Leave voters don't believe the Leave campaign lied. I found this out earlier when I headed over to the LML page.

Bearbehind Tue 25-Jun-19 20:30:13

closer the thing you need to get your head round is that there is no logic here.

Leavers who still insist on leaving at all costs have targeted one thing, immigration, and nothing else matters.

Rational thought and reality don’t enter into it.

I’ve come across far too many who think Asians, Indians and Pakistanis are all going home too when we leave. Even those who are British citizens. It’s disgraceful.

Iambuffy Tue 25-Jun-19 20:31:05

I've been pondering this for many months now...

The majority of leave votes came from a very specific demographic.

Not all!...But a statistical majority.

Older >65
Low educational attainment
From deprived areas

I realise that for a lot of the over 65s concerns about educational opportunities, FOM, jobs, mortgages are not a priority.

For quite a few leavers, they can and indeed seem happy to weather the coming financial storm.

However, I was - sadly - in a and e with my mum again last week (cardiac event) and as I stood in majors for hours and hours and saw patients come and go, and then in MAU and then on the ward, it struck me (as it always does...) that 99% of them were over 65.

The NHS is on its knees.

Its currently only still viable due to the goodwill of its staff.

And it is these very leavers - older with complex and chronic issues - and in poorer areas - who will suffer.

But they sure as hell won't blame themselves voting leave!

It'll be remainers (btw WHY are remainers supposed to help with this utter clusterfuck??) Or the nasty EU!!

Sigh.

I'm so very tired of it all.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:31:47

I've seen that too, Bear. It's so horrible.

AnnaComnena Tue 25-Jun-19 20:32:04

I swore I would never get into this again, but very well.

I remember when we joined. We were promised a Common Market, not Ever Closer (political) Union. I was dubious then, but thought the people advocating it must know what they were talking about. Fool me once. I was a student then. I'm older and better educated now.

I thought the single currency was a bad idea when it was introduced, and nothing that has happened since has caused me to change my mind. I know we're not in it, but we're having to watch the devastating effects on the Mediterranean countries. What other bad ideas might be introduced in the future which, if we were to stay, we might not be able to negotiate an opt out for?

The EU's administration is expensive at best, corrupt at worst, unwieldy, unrepresentative. But they show no interest in reforming themselves.

I believe the EU is too big and will sooner or later break up or collapse in on itself, as history shows supra-national entities nearly always do. I'd rather we extricated ourselves in an orderly fashion before that happens, and we may never get another chance.

I wasn't misled or fooled by the Leave campaign. I didn't pay much attention to it. I was looking for the Remain campaign to give me a reason to vote Remain. It didn't. If anything, it hardened my resolve to vote Leave.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:33:06

Sorry to hear about your mum Buffy flowers

Iambuffy Tue 25-Jun-19 20:34:26

Well you're not wrong about the remain campaign.

Utterly dire.

Thank you. She's home and doing better x

Bearbehind Tue 25-Jun-19 20:34:31

Literally CBA to respond in detail to any of that Anne, it’s straight from the Leavers book of bollocks.

UserAlice Tue 25-Jun-19 20:38:26

The conclusion I have come to is that a number (possibly majority) of Leavers are purely emotive voters.

If you ask a Leaver why they want to Leave you are more likely to get an emotive response like “taking back control” or whatever. The Brexiteers in parliament and government fuel this.

If you ask a Remainer why they voted to remain, they will almost always have a solid list of reasons why they think we should remain.

That is why they find it so difficult to change their mind or listen to reason; because reason never came into it in the first place.

magpieC Tue 25-Jun-19 20:41:47

Brexit as a religion: www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/brexit-how-britain-was-undone-by-the-religious-fervour-of-a-deluded-few?fbclid=IwAR3Bt9SkPi7Uhv1ofSdXwrQO8nr9eursYOlMd5yf7W0vqi_o8n45qnX26GM

AnnaComnena Tue 25-Jun-19 20:42:18

Literally CBA to respond in detail to any of that Anne, it’s straight from the Leavers book of bollocks.

Thereby proving my point. Wish I hadn't wasted my time. (You could at least have read enough to get my name right.)

PouncerDarling Tue 25-Jun-19 20:42:55

I haven't heard one decent argument for it in three years. I've given up asking. The response generally turned out to be the equivalent of the Union Jack being held up in my face.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:43:32

Thank you for answering honestly, Anna.

I'm not going to argue with you, you have your reasons. I'd perhaps like to get a better understanding from you, a Leaver. Do you see an 'Ever closer political union' as a bad thing? Could you explain to me why you do or don't? I'm not looking for an argument, I have my own opinion and I'm not going to foist it upon you.

You're more than likely correct in saying the EUs admin is costly and probably very difficult to reform, even as an inside member. But again I have my own thoughts and feelings overall which I wont bore you with.

The single currency has shown its weak points and failings but we have opt-outs. In fairness I think the global financial system probably needs an overhaul, so it's not specifically an EU-issue to me.

One final question to you Anna, and I'm not looking to have an online argument. But what would you consider to be an orderly fashion for leaving? Would that mean a Withdrawal Agreement?

Bearbehind Tue 25-Jun-19 20:44:01

That was a typo - apologies.

There was literally nothing in your post with any substance so there’s nothing worth discussing.

Iambuffy Tue 25-Jun-19 20:44:05

Ds1 (16) had said the same.

Brexit has become a religion.

Bearbehind Tue 25-Jun-19 20:44:56

The response generally turned out to be the equivalent of the Union Jack being held up in my face.

That sums it up.

It’s a Little Britain mentality through and through.

Bearbehind Tue 25-Jun-19 20:47:28

OMG I’ve just looked on the Leave FB page! It’s unbelievable.

They are still seriously saying the EU will cave in at the last minute instead of no deal.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:50:36

The Leave page is pure Dogma. I just read the comments, I never argue as theres no point. I think it will go one of two ways. We will leave without a deal or Brexit will get kicked into the long grass.

I don't see how arguing the toss with people is the answer though.

Peregrina Tue 25-Jun-19 20:52:15

I believe though that even the 27 are questioning the Ever closer union.
If we want to continue to trade with the EU we will have to accept their laws - so better surely to have a say in making those laws?

Is what we are doing now, extricating ourselves in an orderly fashion? If that were the case there would be a recognition that a likely timescale would be ten years and we would have to say what it is we want. I see no vision of what we want from Leavers, except from disaster capitalists and those who appear to want to be in hock to the USA.

PouncerDarling Tue 25-Jun-19 20:53:00

I can only stomach a few of those comments at a time. They're unintentionally hilarious, often. Which would be enjoyable if it was so incredibly dangerous for the country.

Backyard99 Tue 25-Jun-19 20:55:10

I voted remain, I know many friends and family who didn’t.

We’ve discussed our reasons amicably and out of interest; reading this thread, I’m struck by a couple of things.

Why would you presume to show such an unhealthily controlling interest in the political opinions of others, of whom you speak pejoratively, and in a lumpen mass as ‘they all’?

It is exactly this attitude that would make me vote leave in another referendum.

I’ve never seen such lack of listening, tarring as thick racists and dismissive downright rudeness as that shown by my fellow leavers. It’s embarrassing.

Just because they are not your own reasons, who are you to decide another’s voting decision is wrong?

There’s a word for that.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 20:57:23

Is what we are doing now, extricating ourselves in an orderly fashion? If that were the case there would be a recognition that a likely timescale would be ten years

There's not even a Gantt chart. There is nothing orderly about it.

Peregrina Tue 25-Jun-19 20:58:30

So if the EU does collapse in on itself, will our withdrawal orderly or not prevent us from being caught as the debris falls?

1tisILeClerc Tue 25-Jun-19 20:59:38

{ Fool me once. I was a student then. I'm older and better educated now. }

So well educated that you can't be arsed to actually learn anything about the EU but have made it as far as glancing at a few pages of the Daily Mail.

{I wasn't misled or fooled by the Leave campaign. I didn't pay much attention to it.}
Granted the 'Remain' campaign was lacklustre and should have trumpeted the good things that the EU does do but the statements in the leaflet put out before the referendum were correct, even the fall in the Pound, although it did not happen 'overnight' partly because the Bank of England ploughed millions into the economy to shore it up.
The referendum should have stated that to leave will be a 10 year project, for which 3 years have been wasted, along with Billions of pounds achieving fuck all.

Bearbehind Tue 25-Jun-19 21:01:24

backyard after 3 years of really trying to understand what this is all for, I’ve given up.

There are no answers that make this worthwhile.

So now I don’t give a shit what happens - I just really hope it affects those who chose it the most.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 21:02:21

*
Why would you presume to show such an unhealthily controlling interest in the political opinions of others, of whom you speak pejoratively, and in a lumpen mass as ‘they all’?*

I can answer that question with ease. Because all the vocal leavers on the Leave pages ALL repeat the same things. If their was one that stood out as saying something different to the rest, that would be rather remarkable indeed. If you don't believe me, wander over to the Leave pages of Facebook and tell me which individual stands out to you as having a different reason to the rest.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 21:02:50

There*

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 21:12:36

And @Backyard99 I do not wish to control anyone, nor even argue or debate with anyone.

'They all' are a lumpen mass, based on the lump of leavers comments I have read on Facebook. I cannot differentiate Joe Bloggs opinion from John Smith's as there seems to be no variation. 'They' would probably say the same about us Remainers, eg, there may not be a great difference between my reasons for wanting to Remain and Peregrinas or Bellini's etc.

I haven't called anyone thick or racist. I have pointed out that theres no point in arguing because it gives Leavers ammunition. Christ, even when I'm not arguing, you've just accused me of calling people thick and racist hmm

I took Anna's points on board with intrigue, I didn't even attempt to argue with her(?), I actually just asked for her thoughts.

So please spare me the pep talk, I don't think name calling or online mud slinging is the answer.

1tisILeClerc Tue 25-Jun-19 21:18:40

I'm looking forward to 'leavers' whipping themselves into a meringue when the unicorns don't arrive.
I am however greatly saddened that so many who don't want to Brexit will be badly affected for many years.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 21:19:46

It is exactly this attitude that would make me vote leave in another referendum

This is a part of the human psyche I admit, I will never understand.

@Backyard99 does that mean you voted Remain in 2016, but if someone refers to you as 'they all' it would make you vote differently in another referendum?

Or do you mean you voted Leave in 2016, and being referred to as 'they all' further entrances your position?

I'm genuinely fascinated. I think mainly because no amount of someone referring to me as 'they all' could sway me from my principles.

I'm intrigued by this comment.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 21:20:24

Entrenches*

Peregrina Tue 25-Jun-19 21:24:50

We had one thread a few months back where a Leaver went on and on 'I know you will call me thick and racist'. The only person who did was the poster herself.

I really want Leavers to tell me what benefits they expect to wake up to when we are out of the EU in a reasonably short time say 3 years.

Let's start with the NHS. Will all the local hospitals be well equipped and well staffed?

What else? Laws. What new law that we can't make now because of the EU, is likely to benefit the average family?

Oakenbeach Tue 25-Jun-19 21:28:14

@closertotheheart

Not read all of thread but i both agree and disagree with your comment.

I agree there’s no point in trying to persuade committed Brexiteers.

However, I believe there’s a reasonably sized group who don’t really care either way and “just want it over”, who believe that a no-deal “clean-break” Brexit would do just that. Of course this “clean break” is a massive lie peddled by the Faragists and needs exposing. Remainer politicians need to tackle this...

I believe the best way forward would be for the LibDems/Greens/SNP/PC etc to commit to revoke A50 if they can form a Government and more than 50% of people vote for remain parties in the likely autumn election (and only go for a referendum if not).

It may seem a bold unattainable pledge, but this such a bold move is needed I believe. If we are defeatist and believe that Remain parties have no hope of forming a Government, we are wasting our time and may just brace ourselves for no-deal.

Remain parties got 40% in the EU elections - way up on where the polls were only a month before, and we’ll up on the 34% going to BP and UKIP. If Remainers are to prevail, they must become the natural home of the “lets just get it over with” brigade, as currently they’re fodder for Farage’s propaganda!

1tisILeClerc Tue 25-Jun-19 21:36:31

{I believe the best way forward would be for the LibDems/Greens/SNP/PC etc to commit to revoke A50}
So why haven't they got organised and started shouting about this yet?

Peregrina Tue 25-Jun-19 21:49:05

The organisation is happening behind the scenes but there is still a long way to go. I would like to see moderate Labour MPs join also. There then would be enough support to revoke A50. This must be done IMO with charging the Leavers to prepare a proper plan. This could be cross party - put Hoey in charge of fishing quotas. How will she get the quotas sold to the Dutch back and at what price? And so on.

I agree we have to tackle the "let's just get it over with it" brigade. As I mentioned before I have a friend who was Remain and thinks a Leave vote now would achieve this. So they need to be appraised of the fact that the easiest deals in history won't happen, but more likely we will have seven to ten years more like the last three.

Peregrina Tue 25-Jun-19 21:51:38

Missed a bit out - the proper plan would be for the Leave MPs to prepare to bring the Brexit issue back when the plan was prepared. Not before.

Iambuffy Tue 25-Jun-19 22:03:22

Every single brexiteer/erg fucker in parliament should be given a job in making Brexit a success (ha!)

No soundbites, xenophobic comments, racism...some actual work and effort.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 22:15:41

I would love to see A50 revoked in an ideal world. But I am leaning towards Bellini's pov that the best outcome at this stage would be some sort of halfway happy, I.e. leave on WA terms. It wont satisfy Remainers and it certainly wont satisfy the leave camp but.... how else do you bridge two completely opposing sides?

It's like trying to get two pieces of a puzzle together that don't fit properly. There needs to be a way of adjoining the two.

Oakenbeach Tue 25-Jun-19 22:16:13

So why haven't they got organised and started shouting about this yet?

Good question... I sincerely hope that @Peregrina is right and they are. The LibDem leadership contest won’t be helping though.

There’s also the “respect the referendum” remainers turned leavers. This group comprised most remainers, including myself, until quite recently. A GE which was also, in effect, a referendum may sway a number of these.

Relatively small gains could male a big difference. At the moment, “Leave” has pretty much a monopoly on “get it over with/don’t really care about Brexit” voters.... Say they make up 10% of the vote... if 1 in 3 were persuaded that “Revoke” via a Remainer vote was the route to “Brexit freedom” and the LibDem etc vote went up by 3%, that would easily lead to 30-40 seats in a close fought campaign that could make all the difference!

Oakenbeach Tue 25-Jun-19 22:21:22

But I am leaning towards Bellini's pov that the best outcome at this stage would be some sort of halfway happy, I.e. leave on WA terms

That was my position until the 3rd WA vote failed... I just don’t see that as viable via any credible route any more - it’s do or die now - No-deal or Revoke (albeit that this may come via a referendum and no-deal would end up in a deal eventually after we’ve been dragged through the shit)

Mistigri Tue 25-Jun-19 22:29:12

There is zero point in "debating" Brexit now - positions have become too entrenched.

My experience of family members who are Brexiters is that you can't discuss it at all. Last time I saw my father he was talking about how marvellous it was that a young florist friend could have flowers from the Netherlands on display in her shop within 24 hours of picking. And in the next breath he was telling me that we should leave the EU without a deal. How do you even start to have a discussion on that basis? Of course he doesn't want to trash the young florist's business model - but of course that is exactly what no deal would do.

My father's not stupid: he had a very long career as a banking consultant and despite a stroke he's still reasonably sharp. But Brexit is a complete blind spot for him. And he's a "soft leaver" who three years ago claimed to want a Norway-style Brexit! Radicalisation isn't too strong a word.

Oakenbeach Tue 25-Jun-19 22:32:39

And I wouldn’t put too much store in opinion polls at the mo. Many natural Tories and Labour voters will be continuing to give their parties the benefit of the doubt, and many aren’t as engaged in Brexit as we are so haven’t fully factored that in to their voting intention.

An autumn GE will be the Brexit Election - it will be utterly dominated by it.. and I expect Labour, in particular, to do very badly compared to their current polling position as they will continue to be hugely divided and their votes will peel
off towards Brexit and Remain parties in all areas that are potentially competitive.

As for the Tories, i expect the no-dealer rump will likely do a deal with the Brexit Party leading to Moderate Tories deserting en masse (albeit they are in a minority).

In this environment, I expect the LibDems and Greens to considerably better than their current polls. They just need to get their act together and work in partnership.

Closertotheheart Tue 25-Jun-19 22:34:37

Exactly Misti, but that what I find all so infuriating with the Brexiters. They wont budge an inch on their position, there is no compromise. It's all talk of sovereignty and WTO and no idea what that really means.

bellinisurge Tue 25-Jun-19 22:40:22

Thing is, apart from my workplace and most of my family, I am surrounded by Leavers. I see them everyday and know how strongly they feel. Or, at least felt. So they will either realise they have been played for suckers and be, at best, disillusioned or, at worst, angry. Or they will become more belligerent in their BeLeaving. Or they will compromise. Or they will have a change of heart.
I don't feel sorry for them anymore. I feel sorry for the rest of us having to wait to see which way the ill wind blows.

Darkcloudsandsunnydays Tue 25-Jun-19 22:44:32

You can make money on currency movements. Anyone can. You have to be resourceful and adaptable to survive.

It is immoral in my opinion to import nhs staff into this country to save money and deprive their country of origin where they were trained their benefit.

It is also mathematically unsustainable.

We should be preserving our farmland and not building houses on it. We will need this land in the forthcoming global extinction period.

The insect population in the uk has collapsed.

DorisDaysDadsDogsDead Tue 25-Jun-19 23:01:02

And this is the EUs fault because...

Peregrina Tue 25-Jun-19 23:08:19

I don't think the LibDem leadership contest makes much difference to liaising with other parties. At the moment we are working on forging links at the Local level.

At what stage will the mandate from a GE trump the mandate from the Referendum? Or will it only do so if there is a clear winning side? It ought to have done last time, but I assume the hung Parliament put paid to that, and the Will of the People was justified by "80% of people voted for parties which supported Brexit". So although Labour did badly in Local and Euro elections, I think they will still have a fair amount of support and they need to be pushed off the fence and smartish.

If Labour stays on the Fence and the Tories/Brexit party get the same vote share or seat share as Remain parties then it is only likely to prolong the stalemate.

Oakenbeach Tue 25-Jun-19 23:13:19

At what stage will the mandate from a GE trump the mandate from the Referendum?

It can’t be less than 50% of voters supporting a party that was committed to work to revoke A50.... Anything less would rightly be seen as undemocratic, and much as i would like us to revoke, I couldn’t support it.

Peregrina Tue 25-Jun-19 23:16:36

You can make money on currency movements. Anyone can. You have to be resourceful and adaptable to survive.

Only if you have some money in the first place. So fat chance for people being forced to rely on food banks.

It is immoral in my opinion to import nhs staff into this country to save money and deprive their country of origin where they were trained their benefit.

Agreed. What has stopped us doing this for the last 70 years? I will repeat 70 years. We have always relied on importing staff - very often from the Indian sub continent. People who could use those staff themselves. We ought to be in a position to export our staff to them. What stops us? The political will has not been there. Don't expect it to be there if Hunt gets to become PM.

KennDodd Tue 25-Jun-19 23:28:09

I have a friend who's changed her mind from Leave to Remain, she's really angry about the lies she was told and feels her vote was stolen by cheats.

I have only ever come across one Leaver (on here and irl) who has given a shit about NI as well. A proper 'no deal' Brexiteer who has said that if theres no solution to the Irish border problem, as it seems there isn't, then Brexit must be abandoned, peace is more important.

I follow some Leave groups on Facebook and am banned from posting on Leave EU for posting facts and links to EU law. grin

Peregrina Tue 25-Jun-19 23:33:54

Thank God there is one at least KennDodd.

Oakenbeach Tue 25-Jun-19 23:35:57

If Labour stays on the Fence and the Tories/Brexit party get the same vote share or seat share as Remain parties then it is only likely to prolong the stalemate.

Absolutely.... I think Labour will have a miserable election as the same factors that cut their vote at the EU elections will be magnified at the GE as we face the stark reality on an impending no-deal.... but they’ll retain a core vote would probably be enough to prevent either a Remain or Leave win.

Of course, the tension may become too much - and it seems to be at boiling point now - and Labour may even split in the turbulent approach to the election when they can’t agree on a manifesto. It’s not something that’s yet been mentioned as a possibility, but I wouldn’t rule it out as the tensions are every bit as high as within the Tories.

wheresmymojo Tue 25-Jun-19 23:41:47

Most Leavers actually seem to have voted Leave for 'sovereignty' to be returned.

I can theoretically understand this but I'd like one to be able to explain what it is that we're going to do with this sovereignty that we can't do today.

Not had a decent answer to this yet.

It seems to be about the principle, but I'm a pragmatist and can't get onboard with it.

Peregrina Tue 25-Jun-19 23:47:09

We never lost sovereignty according to Theresa May, so it can't be returned, so we will do with it whatever we do now.

bellinisurge Wed 26-Jun-19 06:48:28

"You can make money on currency movements. Anyone can. You have to be resourceful and adaptable to survive."

No idea of the relevance but having lived in a soft currency country where you had to do this daily, I would say this is bollocks. A mug's game for the very wealthy.

"It is immoral in my opinion to import nhs staff into this country to save money and deprive their country of origin where they were trained their benefit."

This is how the NHS began. My Mum was a "foreign import" in the late 1950s. It has never had enough staff.

"It is also mathematically unsustainable."

See above.

"We should be preserving our farmland and not building houses on it. We will need this land in the forthcoming global extinction period."

And the EU is stopping us, how?

"The insect population in the uk has collapsed."

See above.

Bearbehind Wed 26-Jun-19 07:24:25

Most Leavers actually seem to have voted Leave for 'sovereignty' to be returned.

It’s because ‘sovereignty’ actually equates to ‘Britishness’

They want a return to the ‘good old days’ when there were no foreigners around (if such a time ever existed)

There is literally no other explanation for still wanting to peruse this at all costs when there are no other benefits.

And the FOM we’d achieve isn’t even a benefit and could have been done without leaving anyway.

tomtom1999xx Wed 26-Jun-19 07:29:50

Yanbu.
It became pointless 3 years ago.
Nothing’s changed, if anything, views have become more entrenched.
Why upset yourself trying to debate with people you’ll never agree with?

bellinisurge Wed 26-Jun-19 08:25:58

In the glorious 1950s, my mum and other economic migrants came to the UK to do essential work British people wouldn't do. At least I get an EU passport out of it.grin

Iambuffy Wed 26-Jun-19 09:00:40

My mum came over in the 1960s to signs saying "no dogs, no irish"

Iambuffy Wed 26-Jun-19 09:01:36

101 things the EU has done for us

https://www.facebook.com/standup2brexit/videos/407900333278934/

Iambuffy Wed 26-Jun-19 09:01:56

https://www.facebook.com/standup2brexit/videos/407900333278934/

Iambuffy Wed 26-Jun-19 09:23:29

Why wont my click links work? sad

indistinct Wed 26-Jun-19 09:33:48

OP ... don’t agree ... difficult though it is, the only option is to continue trying to persuade those that will listen that leaving is a grave error. Agree that many leavers are entrenched in their views but there will be some still open to argument and reason.

Bearbehind Wed 26-Jun-19 09:47:31

there will be some still open to argument and reason

Not after 3 years.

Those who still think it is worth pursing at all costs will never change their minds.

Even when it all goes wrong they will still think they were right but the problem was everyone else not making it work.

Closertotheheart Wed 26-Jun-19 11:03:27

It's not worth the aggro trying to debate with them. Its really not, that's why I don't bother.

I say, sod it, let them have their no deal Brexit and their BoJo. Let the elite sell off the NHS to the USA.

Sometimes the adage is true, you don't know what you've got till it's gone sad

MockerstheFeManist Wed 26-Jun-19 11:28:59

This was an eye-opener, and a jaw-dropper, even for someone who studied the topic:

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m00068sk/the-unwanted-the-secret-windrush-files

I knew about how trade union member support for Powell scared the shit out of Labour, but the constant coded language, references to the 'problem' in an oblique nose-tapping way, reminded me of nothing less than the Wansee Conference.

Closertotheheart Wed 26-Jun-19 11:43:15

I'll take a look Mockers, I've yet to catch up on the Windrush programme

Closertotheheart Wed 26-Jun-19 11:50:48

And yes some of my relatives have been affected by the Windrush scandal and the hostile environment, so it is a topic close to my heart.

Oakenbeach Wed 26-Jun-19 11:58:44

Not after 3 years. Those who still think it is worth pursing at all costs will never change their minds.

This is defeatist!... If this feeling is typical we may as well just bend over and accept being shafted by the no-deal that the hardcore Brexiteers seem to delight in.

Whereas the opinions of a large number may be fixed, the population just doesn’t split down nearly into ardent, implacable Brexiteers and resolute, convinced Remainers.

There are:
a) many who currently support Leave who will be unnerved by the prospect of a no-deal,
b) those who support it because they think no-deal will mean we can simply move on from Brexit (catastrophically wrong though that may be) and
c) democrats who believe we should simply deliver the referendum result but then may reconsider if there was actually another plebiscite (even if they just focus on the need to respect the result currently).

Oakenbeach Wed 26-Jun-19 12:00:32

I say, sod it, let them have their no deal Brexit and their BoJo. Let the elite sell off the NHS to the USA.

If this is typical of Remainers’ views then we really are on the losing side of history..... I hope to God it’s not though and there is some fight out there!

bellinisurge Wed 26-Jun-19 12:31:24

I'm not fighting my neighbours who are pretty much all Leavers, @Oakenbeach . I'm afraid it's all very well wanting to change people's minds when you live in a majority Remain area. I don't. My dd goes to school with their children.
I'm keeping my head down in real life.

indistinct Wed 26-Jun-19 12:43:39

Of course there are many who are beyond the reach of any persuasion but there are many who are not. It’s a fairly settled view now that most people (48% to 40% excl. don’t knows) believe leaving the EU was/is the wrong decision (see yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/03/01/where-we-stand-brexit). Everything is still to play for; we have not left, we can retain all of our existing advantages by revoking a50 even now. It is incumbent on all of us who want see the best for our country to continue to resist this folly and persuade those that are still reachable that Brexit is hugely damaging. Don’t be discouraged by the fervour of the zealots, they are lost. Lurkers are listening, learning and changing their minds.

Bearbehind Wed 26-Jun-19 13:06:21

If this is typical of Remainers’ views then we really are on the losing side of history..... I hope to God it’s not though and there is some fight out there!

There’s no point, opinions are too divided.

People who won’t look at the facts and reality of the situation and just reel off the same tired old soundbites at every opportunity are never going to change their mind.

Those who have changed their mind won’t get an opportunity to demonstrate that unless there’s a PV so they’ll just keep their head down.

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