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Westminstenders: A vote too far?

(1000 Posts)
RedToothBrush Mon 10-Dec-18 09:16:13

The ECJ have ruled that the UK can unilaterally revoke A50.

There maybe lots of other news today, but that's the big one.

May has her big vote tomorrow. Or does she.

Will she survive until the end of the week?

OhLookHeKickedTheBall Mon 10-Dec-18 13:09:05

On mobile do can't copy text

https://twitter.com/DawnHFoster/status/1072114547312463874?s=19
Criminal damage to live broadcast

That's a new low one

MissMalice Mon 10-Dec-18 13:09:10

They literally confirmed this morning this deal is the only deal available.

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 13:09:18

Peston thinks May is finished if her motion to cancel / postpone the vote is defeated.

However, is she finished even if it isn't because of the humiliating climbdown ?

Dead Woman walking soon ....

Somerville Mon 10-Dec-18 13:09:23

I don’t know what to think anymore. I just watch BBC parliament and munch popcorn.

ElenadeClermont Mon 10-Dec-18 13:11:27

Has she pulled the meaningful vote or has she postponed it?

MissMalice Mon 10-Dec-18 13:12:38

Don’t think she can legally pull the vote so it must be postponement.

Alwaysbekind2014 Mon 10-Dec-18 13:13:32

Can someone explain what Theresa may would gain from pulling the vote - I thought the vote HAD to happen to allow her deal through ?
Can she put her real through without the Vote ?

1tisILeClerc Mon 10-Dec-18 13:13:34

Can I put 50p on the odds that the 3:30 announcement will be late by at least 5 minutes?

MissMalice Mon 10-Dec-18 13:14:24

I’ll put £1 on the speech being performed by Andy Serkis.

jm90914 Mon 10-Dec-18 13:15:18

Brexshit just gets more and more astonishing...

MissMalice Mon 10-Dec-18 13:15:44

what Theresa may would gain from pulling the vote

- more time to whip her own party
- more time to convince Corbyn to get his party to abstain (Corbyn wants to leave)
- another meeting with the EU(?!)

She can’t put her deal through without the vote.

EtVoilaBrexit Mon 10-Dec-18 13:15:48

Late to the party!

Place mat king.

Today is going to be busy again (and I have work to do!)

DarlingNikita Mon 10-Dec-18 13:18:13

On Twitter, from Mirror political journo:

'Number 10 insiders tell me they think a second referendum is on the cards. "We’re not preparing for it and she doesn’t want it but it might be the only way. We think that’s where we’ll end up".'

OhYouBadBadKitten Mon 10-Dec-18 13:18:39

According to one MEP the negotiator is back in town.

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 13:18:54

If A50 is revoked, then Brexit is dead and cannot be revived.
The UK needs to be at the heart of Europe, not always fighting against workers' rights etc
The ERG must be sent to the dustbin of history, with their "Bonfire of Red Tape"

Any future PM has cover if they revoke A50
- because it looks increasingly like the disaster capitalists were behind the whole Brexit idea, in particular the No Deal version
and the ERG were their stooges.

frankie's link on the last thread again confirmed the murky hedgefunders grubby handprints on Brexit & on Tory party donations

These supposedly patriotic Leavers, fighting against the establishment elitenand for the British wc ....

*stand to win many hundreds of millions* each *if Brexit crashes the UK economy*

because** *they have literally bet against major British businesses, British government^ * ^*bonds and Sterling*

After this Brexshit is over, we need a public enquiry to find out which MPs stood to make large personal gains from a dog's Brexshit and if any received inducements from hedgefunders, including shares in companies, or shares in the bet

OlennasWimple Mon 10-Dec-18 13:20:22

Do the people asking for "more time to negotiate" honestly believe that there's a better agreement waiting to uncovered? Despite multiple EU leaders saying that there isn't? confused

howabout Mon 10-Dec-18 13:20:46

MissMalice he is restating how far TM is from the ERG and therefore how pointless her trying to renegotiate would be is my reading.

Peston suggesting TM could move to withdraw the vote but Parliament could reject.

Interesting bit of legalise on the ECJ ruling interaction with Gina Miller which I am not entirely convinced by on legals but agree with on practicals. ie Legislation to revoke Art 50 as Referendum would take too long (extension as opposed to withdrawal would need EU approval).

ukconstitutionallaw.org/2018/12/10/gavin-phillipson-and-alison-l-young-wightman-what-would-be-the-uks-constitutional-requirements-to-revoke-article-50/

prettybird Mon 10-Dec-18 13:21:43

I agree.

But I get equally annoyed about ERGers and other Brexiters repeating ad nauseum that "The People have Spoken", that "The People" are fed up of not being listened to, that "The People have suffered" (due to domestic austerity politics and sweet FA to do with the EU confused) and that "The People will never forgive the Government if they are ignored".

"The People" are still fucking being ignored angry

The issues that they are concerned about: the concentration of spending and infrastructure on the South East; universal credit; austerity; the NHS; education are. Not. Going. To. Improve. If/When. We. Leave. The. EU. angry

In fact, they. Are. Going. To. Get. Worse. angry

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 13:22:35

If Corbyn gets in, Labour may want a full-blown enquiry on this, too:

_ Foreign Office investigates reports that state-funded body targeted Corbyn_

They keep moaning their budget has been cut.
Well they should stop wasting it on smearing Opposition politicians:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/10/foreign-office-investigates-report-state-funded-body-targeted-corbyn

The Foreign Office minister, Alan Duncan, has ordered an investigation into reports the government provided funding to a Scottish-based company meant to counter online Russian propaganda, which also spread unfavourable views about Jeremy Corbyn.

The Institute for Statecraft, based in Fife, received hundreds of thousands of pounds in Foreign Office money.

OhYouBadBadKitten Mon 10-Dec-18 13:23:50

If they somehow did something with being able to put a time limit on the backstop (even though that at best would just postpone that particular crisis) would that get the vote through?

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon Mon 10-Dec-18 13:24:20

David Allen Green
@davidallengreen

Today's Brexit summary:

UK parliament will not support the deal

EU27 says the deal will not be renegotiated

EU court says Brexit can be revoked

UK not prepared for No Deal

Brexit will happen by automatic operation of law on 29 March 2019, unless it is stopped or extended

Hazardswan Mon 10-Dec-18 13:26:10

Just checking in because I don't know what the fuck is happening..... not voting on deal tomo but MPs might insist on a vote to cancel or postpone the vote?
A judgement happening at 2pm about illegalities?
We can revoke?
On a personal side note the benefits people are doing my head in?
Everyone keep popcorn away from Susan's son?
Something happening at 3.30?
And a partridge in a pear tree?

<Shakespearean lady faint>

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 13:26:14

Yes, any PV needs the EU to agree UNANIMOUSLY to an extension,
because organising a referendum takes about 24 weeks minimum, according to constituional experts.

The surest way to revoke - which can even be on 29 March - is for the PM (whoever (s)he then is) to do so
afaik, that doesn't even need HoC approval

1tisILeClerc Mon 10-Dec-18 13:31:12

French news saying that social media links in relation to the violent aspects of the GJ protests have links back to Russia.

Inniu Mon 10-Dec-18 13:32:27

twitter.com/borderirish/status/1072089177653694464?s=21

Loving the tweets on this

1tisILeClerc Mon 10-Dec-18 13:32:42

{<Shakespearean lady faint>}
I am sure smelling salts are banned as a hazardous substance, go steady there!

MissMalice Mon 10-Dec-18 13:35:34

@Innui grin Meany-ful, brilliant.

Motheroffourdragons Mon 10-Dec-18 13:36:11

Thank you for the new thread red

I’m currently on my way back to the Uk and am monumentally embarrassed by the behaviour of the UK government if they do delay this vote.

I cannot understand what they hop

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 13:36:36

The ECJ decision might well make the EU relutant to agree to an extension and a PV
They want the Uk either in, or out,
not gameplaying with A50 to try to force a better deal (which they won't agree anyway)

The UK's problem has never been lack of time, but being ignorant, arrogant and totally unable to make up its mind on what it wants.
The UK negotiators were not given a clear mandate and goals, like Barnier's team was.

howabout The EU Commission had to take charge of the negotiations, because individual members are not allowed to negotiate trade deals, "mixed" deals or anything resembling Withdrawal Agreement.

Yes, it gave them extra "heft" - that's the main point in being part of a powerful trade bloc,
not having little countries like Ireland isolated and bullied by the much larger UK

Also, it would have been an impossible nightmare to ever get a WA, with 27 negotiating teams trying to stay coordinated
Much better to have one negotiating team, that gets its instructions agreed by all 27 and keeps checking back with them.

Barnier seems to have gone to the absolute limits of what he was allowed to give away, but at least all 27 agreed.
Opening up the WA will mean individual members wanting some of their concessions back.

Holidayshopping Mon 10-Dec-18 13:36:39

If this announcement is about delaying the vote (rather than resigning), how long can she delay things for?

A day? A week? A month?

6freerangeeggs Mon 10-Dec-18 13:36:53

We live in interesting times (PMK)

Motheroffourdragons Mon 10-Dec-18 13:37:10

Oops don’t know what happened there. I can’t understand his delaying improves things.

Hi howabout. Nice to see you back 😀

1tisILeClerc Mon 10-Dec-18 13:37:56

{If they somehow did something with being able to put a time limit on the backstop (even though that at best would just postpone that particular crisis) would that get the vote through?}
The backstop is not important if the government are prepared to negotiate like grown ups with the EU.
The fact they oppose a backstop with such hostility strongly suggests they are not prepared to grow up and negotiate.
It is the continued bad faith by the UK that is the issue the EU is trying to avoid.

Motheroffourdragons Mon 10-Dec-18 13:38:31

To be fair, revoking a50 now with a view to re-invoking when you have an actual clue what to do might work for everybody.

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 13:39:28

mother It seems it just reduces the available options to Remain or No Deal

If the PM and the HoC has any sense of responsibility, they won't rely on a PV to avoid No Deal, but will make the decision themselves.

TokyoSushi Mon 10-Dec-18 13:39:37

Laura K now also saying they may not be allowed to pull the vote, what a bloody mess!

DGRossetti Mon 10-Dec-18 13:40:10

Do the people asking for "more time to negotiate" honestly believe that there's a better agreement waiting to uncovered?

Yes.

Despite multiple EU leaders saying that there isn't?

But they're foreigners, and not to be trusted.

Mrsr8 Mon 10-Dec-18 13:42:17

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 13:42:38

Invoking again too soon would count as what the ECJ called "abuse" of the right to revoke,
using it as a negotiating ploy
- exactly why the EU Commision and the EU Council sided with the UK govt (!) and argued against unilateral right to revoke.

So, the UK would probably then be facing suspension of voting rights etc under Article 7

1tisILeClerc Mon 10-Dec-18 13:43:33

Further delays and messing about by the UK can only weaken the UK's position and stiffen the resolve of the EU.
I am struggling to come to terms with this being entirely self inflicted by the UK.

Motheroffourdragons Mon 10-Dec-18 13:47:26

Well it will take about 10 years for us to decide what we want so there will be no revoking and reinvoking for some time 😂. Works for everybody.

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 13:47:54

DG What Leavers and some Remainers too have in common is that everyone has to accommodate the UK,
because

we're special and .... German cars and .... they need us more than we need them .... and we can starve out Ireland because it worked before ...

Brexiters and damn near the entire HoC have learned FUCK-ALL over the last 2 years 🤦🏻‍♀️

Any country can leave the EU.
What it can't do is retain all the bits it likes, or even needs to keep its economy afloat

The UK has a unique problem in leaving, with the GFA - it signed away its right to complete control of one part of its territory.
NI is not Finchley

Motheroffourdragons Mon 10-Dec-18 13:48:20

There’s got to be a vote of no confidence surely.

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 13:49:13

Mother By which time the referendum result, with all the younger voters, would be more like 1975,
which was 65% Remain 😂

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon Mon 10-Dec-18 13:49:55

Nicola Sturgeon
@NicolaSturgeon
So @jeremycorbyn - if Labour, as official opposition, lodges motion of no confidence in this incompetent government tomorrow, @theSNP will support & we can then work together to give people the chance to stop Brexit in another vote. This shambles can’t go on - so how about it?

Jack Maidment
@jrmaidment
Nicola Sturgeon challenges Jeremy Corbyn to call a vote of no confidence in the Government - and says the SNP will support it and then work with Labour to "stop Brexit".
Stakes rising rapidly.

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 13:51:12

Well, Corbyn stays on his allotment for everything else, but he normally wakes up if there is any chance of a Vote of NC,
his chance to be PM 🤔

he clearly doesn't give a shit one way or the other about Brexit, other than how it can clear his way to be PM.

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 13:52:34

I regard NS as the effective leader of the Opposition, because there is a Corbyn-shaped hole there

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon Mon 10-Dec-18 13:52:44

Laura Kuenssberg
@bbclaurak
Not impossible that Labour will work with ERG to vote against the govt pulling the vote - yes you read that right - govt might lose the vote they might need to win to pull the big vote

jasjas1973 Mon 10-Dec-18 13:54:49

If only N.Sturgeon or I. Blackford were leading the Labour party.

OlennasWimple Mon 10-Dec-18 13:56:35

But they're foreigners, and not to be trusted.

Good point. I keep forgetting that.

Though I swear that when the ERG get together, they start their discussions with a rousing rendition of the Flanders and Swan classic song with the chorus of "The English, the English, the English are best, I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest"

LouiseCollins28 Mon 10-Dec-18 14:01:39

You want folks who are committed to the breakup of the UK running the Labour party?! Wither solidarity?

RedToothBrush Mon 10-Dec-18 14:02:44

Pippa Crerar @pippacrerar
Number 10 insiders tell me they think a second referendum is on the cards. "We’re not preparing for it and she doesn’t want it but it might be the only way. We think that’s where we’ll end up".

BUT there's a long way to go until we get to that point:
1. PM heads back to Brussels to try to win more concessions.
2. EU will say no to re-opening negotiations - offering warm words instead.
3. But warm words won't be enough for Brexiteers.
4. Stalemate.
Can she survive?

DGRossetti Mon 10-Dec-18 14:03:46

www.thenational.scot/news/17287747.scottish-tory-mp-launches-attack-on-his-partys-stand-in-leader/

YOU'D think that this week more than any other the Tories would at least try to pretend they are united on Brexit.

It's no secret that many in Theresa May's party are unhappy with her Brexit deal and many plan to display their discontent by voting against her plan at tomorrow's meaningful vote.

But it seems that some are far too self-interested to let party loyalty enter their thinking.

Step forward Ross Thomson, the gift that just keeps on giving, who this time has taken aim at stand-in Scottish Conservative leader Jackson Carlaw for a comment piece he wrote in today's Daily Mail.

(contd)

DGRossetti Mon 10-Dec-18 14:06:11

I think it's a little bit silly not to have appointed a minister for Brexit to save the PM having to do all the running. Surely she's got better things to worry about with the state of the world ?

RedToothBrush Mon 10-Dec-18 14:06:45

Lewis Goodall @lewis_goodall
Some Tory MPs now saying they won’t vote to call the meaningful vote off if a vote is required. This could get very dangerous. There could be no greater display of political impotence than a prime minister who not only can’t win a vote but can’t even cancel one.

DGRossetti Mon 10-Dec-18 14:07:32

There could be no greater display of political impotence than a prime minister who not only can’t win a vote but can’t even cancel one.

Hubris ?

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 14:10:45

MPs may be be trying to nail down the coffin lid over her head

If someone like Boris or DD gets in - delusional - who'll expect to the very last minute that the EU will blink,
then an unplanned, unintentional No Deal becomes likely

Robert Peston@Peston

@theresa_may taking astonishing risk in trying to cancel vote on her Brexit plan.
Absolutely no sign in other European capitals of willingness to re-open and renegotiate the Withdrawal Agreement that DUP and her Brexiter MPs hate.
Delay and then second failure to get deal...

...^that MPs could support would surely mean the end of her time in Number 10.^
Although she is always saying none of this is about her, it is about the nation, it is currently seen by her colleagues as all about her

howabout Mon 10-Dec-18 14:10:48

Hi mother
Bigchoc I agree with you on PM ought to be able to revoke without PV or legislation. However in wake of Gina Miller and to mirror decision to invoke, which had Parliamentary endorsement I agree with the paper I posted that Legislation to revoke Art 50 is the safest path.

We are at cross purposes on the Commission's negotiating process. The UK is still part of the EU, so to my mind, it should have been a mandate to come up with an exit proposal endorsed by all 28 - not 27 against 1.

Imho most of Labour's problems can be laid at the door of jettisoning Scottish voices to the SNP - sure there was SNP pull but there was also a lot of push (Tam Dayell is good on this). The nail in the coffin was when people started to say Gordon Brown couldn't be PM as he was a Scottish MP. Ironic that the Tories, having got away with that and EVEL, are now desperate to adopt Struth and have the Gove putting his spanner in willy nilly.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall Mon 10-Dec-18 14:11:38

For all the hard words of the EU not wiling to renetioate I suspect they would, but only if we drop our red lines.

Hasenstein Mon 10-Dec-18 14:12:17

I go out for A COUPLE OF HOURS and come back to find that not only is the last thread full, but this one's already up to 7 pages. Must be something up; better scan back for a while!

DGRossetti Mon 10-Dec-18 14:12:20

Is it just me, or is it like the BBC really don't like reporting on this at all ? Very ... staid and waffly.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon Mon 10-Dec-18 14:13:52

Guy Verhofstadt
@guyverhofstadt
I can’t follow anymore. After two years of negotiations, the Tory government wants to delay the vote. Just keep in mind that we will never let the Irish down. This delay will further aggravate the uncertainty for people & businesses. It’s time they make up their mind! #brexit

RedToothBrush Mon 10-Dec-18 14:15:28

Esther Webber @estwebber
The sidiest of sidebars: Lords are due to vote on the deal today. Does that get pulled as well?

Sorry, slight correction: Lords debate on the Brexit deal should go ahead today as planned, but the vote is less certain - peers could take the view there's no point

Labour Lords UK @labourlordsuk
Our debate will go ahead, either way

* Settles down with a cup of hot chocolate for the rest of the afternoon, whilst looking mournfully at the state of the pound today...

6freerangeeggs Mon 10-Dec-18 14:15:33

Copied this from The Guardian, apparently she wants to renegotiate the un-renogiatable.

Steven Swinford
(**@Steven**_Swinford)
NEW:

PM told Cabinet Tories would suffer a 'notable' loss if they pressed ahead with vote on her deal.

She said 'risks are too great' and she is going back to Brussels to secure 'legally-binding assurance' we won't be trapped in backstop indefinitely.https://t.co/y9aUOMM6PC

December 10, 2018
Steven Swinford
(**@Steven**_Swinford)
PM told Cabinet 'this is the right deal' and claimed that there is 'broad support' for getting it through but acknowledged that the backstop is a concern.

Sounds like she could head to Brussels imminently to attempt to try and secure new terms.

December 10, 2018

RedToothBrush Mon 10-Dec-18 14:17:01

Mark Wallace @wallaceme
Pretty dire insight into the state of things - just asked a (normally loyal) MP “Have you sent your letter?”
“No...I don’t think I’ll need to, there are plenty of others.”

Mrsr8 Mon 10-Dec-18 14:17:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

howabout Mon 10-Dec-18 14:17:36

You want folks who are committed to the breakup of the UK running the Labour party?! Wither solidarity?

Kezia floated Federalism as a policy position not long before she resigned. This could well reunite the SNP and Labour if they could settle the egos and also sort the English Regional / London divide.

The current Smith Commission settlement for Scotland is not stable or satisfactory and Stormont isn't even running. Not sure who is in charge in Wales these days or what they are in charge of.

howabout Mon 10-Dec-18 14:18:21

Mark Wallace calling it grin

icannotremember Mon 10-Dec-18 14:18:37

I can’t follow anymore. You and me both, Guy.

DGRossetti Mon 10-Dec-18 14:19:15

Just keep in mind that we will never let the Irish down.

12 words that simply blow 2 years of Theresa Mays bullshit about the UK out of the water.

You know, I always thought of myself as straight, but GV could be making me reidentify .....

RedToothBrush Mon 10-Dec-18 14:19:21

Nick Gutteridge @nick_gutteridge
EU diplomat tells me Robbins has been sent back to Brussels to seek a ‘legally binding’ commitment backstop will never be used. Says anything other than a political commitment to ‘do our best’ to avoid triggering it is unlikely to get past EU27. Feeling here is May has panicked.

Tanith Mon 10-Dec-18 14:19:26

" 'Our Prime Minister is made of the right stuff. A woman of substance. Her incredible resilience, fortitude, selflessness and sense of duty are an example to us all.' "

Did he happen to mention how much the husband of this brave, selfless, dutiful woman stands to make from 'No Deal' Brexit?

prettybird Mon 10-Dec-18 14:20:32

Dh has just asked if Theresa May had a horse confused

When I asked him why he was asking, he said if she did, she'd soon be appointing it her SoS for Brexit grin

We really are descending to that level of absurdity.

DarlingNikita Mon 10-Dec-18 14:20:50

For all the hard words of the EU not wiling to renetioate I suspect they would, but only if we drop our red lines.

I think so too.

howabout Mon 10-Dec-18 14:22:34

Even I agree with Guy. Too much messing around in hyperspace already and that is what is at the heart of what is wrong with the Withdrawal Agreement - more endless negotiation (dropping backstop solves very little imho and reading what Steve Baker posted)

LouiseCollins28 Mon 10-Dec-18 14:23:12

which, among other reasons, neatly explains (thank goodness!) why Kezia is no longer Scottish Labour leader.

On the substantive issue, heaven knows what we'll be getting at 3:30 this afternoon!

RedToothBrush Mon 10-Dec-18 14:23:32

James Duddridge MP @JamesDuddridge
The PM does not get to pull a vote. The House will have to vote to pull a vote. I will oppose. We need to see this deal off once and for all.

Seymour strangely @ Seymourstrange
So - PM could lose the vote not to have a vote in case she loses that vote..?

WTF

James Duddridge MP @JamesDuddridge
You got it.

This is a Conservative MP.

Lots of omminous messages this afternoon...

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 14:24:17

Howabout A50 clearly states that the EU acts as a Union during negotiations, not as individual members:

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

2. "^A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention.^^ ^*In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council,* ^*the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement*^ *with that State,*
*setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union.*

*That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union*
^. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.^"

Of course it is 27 vs 1, because only 1 country is leaving.

Naturally this puts the leaving country at a disadvantage of size,
plus the fact that by default it is losing its trading relationship with the EU, its 40 FTAs with 60 other countries and 750 other trade agreements,
its membership of agencies for essential services like flights ...

However, a cacophony of 27 negotiating teams, each demanding their pound of flesh, would likely have left the Uk without e.g. Gibraltar, fishing rights, any other goodies the individual members want...
and probably 10 years further down the line.

RedToothBrush Mon 10-Dec-18 14:25:40

Britain elects @ britain_elects
EU referendum voting intention (Leave w/ deal vs. Remain)

Remain: 47%
Leave (w/ deal): 29%

via @YouGov, 06 - 07 Dec

RedToothBrush Mon 10-Dec-18 14:26:28

Laura Kuennsberg @bbclaurak
Govt whips apparently confident they can delay the vote - but it may be when the try that the 'house erupts' - according to one MP

DGRossetti Mon 10-Dec-18 14:27:31

EU diplomat tells me Robbins has been sent back to Brussels to seek a ‘legally binding’ commitment backstop will never be used.

Sounds like the "never claim car insurance" policy in Monty Python.

I wonder if plod would accept that if I was stopped.

"Well officer, I did have insurance. But then I realised I'd never claim. So I dropped it."

RedToothBrush Mon 10-Dec-18 14:28:20

StefanieBolzen @stephaniebolzen
Talking to EU sources it makes you wonder what the PM's tactics is. If she had arrived to #EUCO after a crashing #Brexit deal defeat in the HoC her leverage on EU27 surely would have been stronger.

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 14:30:05

OhLook I expect the EU would "negotiate" in the sense of letting the UK change the Political Declaration in the WA,
so the final destination is e.g. a third pillar of the EEA

However, they won't reopen the 2 years negotiations.

The 3 prerequisites have been agreed and stay:
expat rights, exit bill, the NI backstop

Shows again the advantage for a little country like Ireland when its big brother EU does the negotiating,
instead of Ireland having to negotiate on its own and then being bullied,
as always used to happen before joining the then Common Market, now EU:

TheElementsSong Mon 10-Dec-18 14:30:14

In almost 3 years of omnishambles, this is even more of an epic omnishambles.

And apparently we're the Great Nation that's going to bestride the globe being worshipped and feted with trade deals by awestruck foreigners hmm

howabout Mon 10-Dec-18 14:30:27

BigChoc that is my fundamental point. The UK is still a part of the "Union" and the EU right up until the conclusion of Art 50. Imho it is legally unsound for it to have been excluded from the Council in the way it has over the past 2 years.

The ECJ may well have just opened the floodgates to a whole lot more Lisbon Treaty challenges, not just on Art 50.

RedToothBrush Mon 10-Dec-18 14:30:42

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
DUP sources: “we would prefer this to be brought to a head tomorrow”.

Uhoh...

Peregrina Mon 10-Dec-18 14:31:26

"The People will never forgive the Government if they are ignored".

The People who support Brexit had the chance at the weekend to get out to show this. I don't recall there being 700,000 of them. It was a little better than two men and a dog but not by a very big margin.

RedToothBrush Mon 10-Dec-18 14:32:57

Alex Wickham @alexwickham
Lot of anger in government that various ministers were sent out to insist the vote was going ahead while No10 knew this was not the case

I saw Gove was one of them saying until late this morning it was the case...

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 14:34:12

Howabout It is pretty clear in A50 point 4, that the UK can NOT participate:

4^. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3,^ *the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the* _^*withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions*^_^*of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.^*"

The ECJ ruling was about something that hadn't been specified in A50.
What you want would reauie them to strike down an Article that all EU members had agreed and signed

Holidayshopping Mon 10-Dec-18 14:34:50

What a massive mess!

Can TM just decide to delay the vote?!

FestiveForestieraNoel Mon 10-Dec-18 14:35:04

gin for all.

What a mess.

RedToothBrush Mon 10-Dec-18 14:36:13

Arabella @ arabella_law
#AskTheCommons There's been a lot of talk this weekend about delaying Tuesday evening's vote, but very little on how that could be done. What if any procedures are still available for doing so, and when would they have to be invoked?

Official account saying this:

UK House of Commons @houseofcommons
Hi Arabella, The vote could be delayed in 1 of 3 ways.
1) A Minister could defer the motion when it is called at the start of business today or tomorrow.
2) The Govt could move a motion during the debate 'That the debate be now adjourned': this cld be debated & voted on. (1/2)
3) If these two options are unavailable, technically a Minister could 'talk out' the debate at 7pm on Tuesday. (2/2)

Omg. Does this mean the government could filibuster the vote?!!

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 14:37:33

"A legally binding commitment that the backstop will never be used ??!!"
😂😂
When is a backstop not a backstop ... when it is not legally binding !

The only commitment I can see that is compatible with a backstop not being meaningless,
is that instead of activating it, the UK could be allowed to continue in transition, on the same terms

DGRossetti Mon 10-Dec-18 14:37:42

It's the end of days.

For some, at least I hope.

OlennasWimple Mon 10-Dec-18 14:38:15

Yup - talk and talk and talk until the time runs out...

(Now that would be a nail in the coffin of democracy, even if our Parliamentary procedures make it totally legitimate practice)

RedToothBrush Mon 10-Dec-18 14:38:33

Dan @ mamamia10012
#AskTheCommons if a minster where to theorectically try the third option. could any member move that the "question do now be put" on a point of order?

No reply (yet)

IsobelKarev Mon 10-Dec-18 14:40:06

I might be being stupid, but surely all of this simply makes a no-deal brexit more likely?

May can't get the deal through Parliament, MPs aren't realistically going to vote to revoke article 50 without a referendum or general election and there isn't enough time to hold a referendum or general election before 29th March.

If I understand the ECJ ruling correctly the UK does not need approval from the other 27 EU states to revoke article 50, but would need them to agree an extension. Why would they agree to that?

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 14:40:08

If A50 is revoked, would any PM be stupid enough to start a whole new clusterfuck of trying to Brexit ? 🤔🤦🏻‍♀️😂

6 months after revoking, finding a Brexiter will be like finding someone (British) who supported regime change in Iraq

BigChocFrenzy Mon 10-Dec-18 14:41:24

Isobel Legally, the PM can revoke without needing even the HoC, let alone a PV
Politically, the disaster of No Deal would be even less survivable, imo

DGRossetti Mon 10-Dec-18 14:42:53

I might be being stupid, but surely all of this simply makes a no-deal brexit more likely?

AIUI as things stand, Parliament could vote to rescind A50 and avoid a no-deal Brexit.

Or to put it another way (and a way I am sure a lot of people would see it) if we did enter a no-deal situation, it was entirely avoidable.

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