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Westminstenders: A vote too far?

(1000 Posts)
RedToothBrush Mon 10-Dec-18 09:16:13

The ECJ have ruled that the UK can unilaterally revoke A50.

There maybe lots of other news today, but that's the big one.

May has her big vote tomorrow. Or does she.

Will she survive until the end of the week?

TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince Tue 11-Dec-18 21:42:02

Mogg for pm?🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮

TatianaLarina Tue 11-Dec-18 21:42:38

From the article:

“It remains in the hands of the UK to decide that we don’t end up in a no-deal scenario,” Varadkar said. “The option is there to revoke article 50, the option is there to extend article 50, and where there may not be a majority for anything, or at least any deal at the moment in the House of Commons, I do believe there’s a majority that the UK should not be plunged into a no-deal scenario and it is in their hands at any point in time to take the threat of no-deal off the table either by revoking article 50 or, if that’s a step too far, by extending it.

Alwaysbekind2014 Tue 11-Dec-18 21:43:08

Ok have I caught up so what could happen is this ....

Tories have 48 letters which then means someone out of the ERG could take over ... but nobody wants that which means If that happens the labour maybe be able to win a no confident vote with the other tories backing leading to a general election ?

MyNameIsArthur Tue 11-Dec-18 21:44:30

So am I right in thinking that a no confidence vote in the PM by the Conservatives is different to a no confidence vote in the Government by the opposition party? If so, could Labour still submit a vote of no confidence?

Icantreachthepretzels Tue 11-Dec-18 21:44:36

If not, does it make any difference who is leader?

Yes. If somebody reasonable is leader then, after the W.A fails they will look at all options and maybe create a national govt or go for a people's vote. they would listen to parliament - and there is not enough support in parliament for no deal to go through formally, so we would be looking at revocation or extension.

If it is May in charge, then she will not listen - she will delay and prevaricate - but I do believe she would blink at the last minute rather than let us go over a cliff edge.

If it is a brexiteer in charge then they will just go for no deal and there's rock all parliament can do about it.

Holidayshopping Tue 11-Dec-18 21:45:57

None of this speculation-Corbyn’s debate, the vote, the possibility of 48 letters etc-has made my BBC News app!

ThereWillBeAdequateFood Tue 11-Dec-18 21:45:58

Leadership contest is going to be carnage. Which would be fine if we weren't sorta in the middle of something

I would normally quite enjoy watching the Tories rip themselves apart, but not right now.

I’ve always had a dream that one day TM will turn around to everyone and say

“Right you’ve been warned, I said you risk no Brexit at all and that’s what you are getting.”
And then revoking Article 50. I’m guessing that dream dies a death now? (not that it was ever more than a dream)

Alwaysbekind2014 Tue 11-Dec-18 21:46:02

Anyone else just think we are fucked no matter what now 🤷‍♀️

IsobelKarev Tue 11-Dec-18 21:46:17

Would a parliamentary vote motion of no confidence trigger a general election, or could a national government be formed short term to make a decision Brexit?

I feel a bit like we are at a stage where pretty much anything could happen.

Icantreachthepretzels Tue 11-Dec-18 21:48:08

Tories have 48 letters which then means someone out of the ERG could take over ... but nobody wants that which means If that happens the labour maybe be able to win a no confident vote with the other tories backing leading to a general election ?

That's the straw I'm clutching at. Though it would probably require an extension of article 50 and I'm not sure exactly who would sort that out whilst all the in fighting was happening.

Alwaysbekind2014 Tue 11-Dec-18 21:48:27

Right but surely someone has to step in a say that a leader/ party Or whatever that is whipped together due to TM being ousted doesn’t have the public vote to carry anything via brexit though ??

Alwaysbekind2014 Tue 11-Dec-18 21:49:41

So Corbyn has a better chance of getting ERG out than Theresa may

IsobelKarev Tue 11-Dec-18 21:51:53

I think even if she faces a no confidence vote as leader of her party, TM remains PM until she either steps down, or someone else forms a government. Like Gordon Brown was still PM after losing a general election until the tories and lib dems got their coalition sorted.

lonelyplanetmum Tue 11-Dec-18 21:52:05

Meanwhile ...over the Irish Sea

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/51853

Myself and Pearse Doherty spoke with Theresa May for 20 minutes this evening during which we raised concerns about her course of action.
“We told the British Prime Minister that the basic protections contained in the backstop are non-negotiable and cannot be unpicked or diluted.

“We raised concerns that we are facing into a no deal or a crash brexit which would be a disaster for Ireland.  And we reminded Mrs May that, in those circumstances, a Unity Referendum must be called as a matter of urgency.
“As I told the Taoiseach today, Irish Unity is the ultimate contingency to protect our interests in the event of a crash brexit.”

howabout Tue 11-Dec-18 21:52:28

There would be No Opposition vote of No Confidence unless there were sufficient Tory defections such that they could not form a Government (with the DUP) which could command a majority.

To succeed Labour need Tory / DUP votes which they won't get, especially if the new Leader has been endorsed by the Membership or if there is a Crisis candidate to manage the process of shelving the Withdrawal Agreement.

1tisILeClerc Tue 11-Dec-18 21:52:32

A thought occurred to me (unusual).
Maybe since RTB is so good at this 'predicting' stuff it is actually her ideas that are being picked up by May and co and they are making the narrative into a reality?

Icantreachthepretzels Tue 11-Dec-18 21:55:34

So Corbyn has a better chance of getting ERG out than Theresa may

In a world where the sensible tories put country before part? Yes. In the real world that we live in... I certainly wouldn't want to put money on it. Frankly, I'm praying either that the number of letters has been over exaggerated (again) or that TM wins a no confidence vote.
The alternative is terrifying (and wastes time we don't have.)
The idea that Labour could oust an ERG PM is a very desperate straw clutch - not anything to be banked on.

DoctorTwo Tue 11-Dec-18 21:56:28

I have not got to the end of Yanis Varoufakis's book yet, but has any of you had the impression that the EU / Troika has capitulated to Greece's demands?

Which book? And The Weak Suffer What They Must? No, the Troika screwed Greece over. Adults In The Room? No, the Troika screwed Greece over. All to keep 2 banks, Deutsche Bank and BNP Paribas, solvent.

HesterThrale Tue 11-Dec-18 22:03:17

It’s amazing that the situation is so desperate that people are hoping TM would win the contest. Which, IIRC, was exactly the feeling in the Tory leader context in 2016. Relief that it was her. But now we know more about her and still she seems the lesser of evils. That Tory party... must be shit.

Now what about this thought? A leadership contest is triggered, and while it’s taking place, TM is still de facto leader. So as her parting gift to the nation, she writes an A50 revocation letter before she is deposed. To prevent certain successors forcing No Deal.

Well, it’s nice to dream...

Hazardswan Tue 11-Dec-18 22:05:15

Yes! Hester genius. She revokes in the morning and is outed in the afternoon.

TatianaLarina Tue 11-Dec-18 22:06:54

This lady is not for revoking.

lonelyplanetmum Tue 11-Dec-18 22:09:29

1tis I can't believe that those who brief the PM don't dip into social media including MN to get a feel for the ideas that are being debated.

I've just had one of those moments of clarity when it seems clear to me that this epic cl^u^ste^r^fuck will lead to the break up of the U.K.

After all the current NI and Scotland union arrangements with England have only been around for 100 and 300 years respectively. I think on the current path it's just a matter of time.

ElenadeClermont Tue 11-Dec-18 22:09:57

DoctorTwo Exactly. Where did Leadsom get her ideas about the EU giving huge last-minute concessions to Greece?!

Motheroffourdragons Tue 11-Dec-18 22:10:27

I honestly am completely flabbergasted by the events of this week.

I can’t understand May tbh, she must know she is on a hiding to nothing.

I have nothing to say really, except I am ashamed of our government.

One way or another she does need to go, she should have gone before. A Tory party leadership battle is not what the country needs now but maybe it will at least lead to an extension of a50.

TokyoSushi Tue 11-Dec-18 22:10:51

Apparently the Chief Whip has just arrived at No 10, just in time for TM's return from Brussels, but late for a social visit...

Glitteryfrog Tue 11-Dec-18 22:14:49

But TM wasn't voted in as leader last time. She was last woman standing when everyone else backed away.

ERG don't actually want to lead, they just want to shout from the sidelines and not have any responsibility.

TatianaLarina Tue 11-Dec-18 22:16:14

honestly am completely flabbergasted by the events of this week

I’m really not. This has been coming for 2.5 years.

I thought we might have this show down earlier tbh, but Parliament was too chicken.

Holidayshopping Tue 11-Dec-18 22:19:30

apparently the Chief Whip has just arrived at No 10, just in time for TM's return from Brussels, but late for a social visit...

Has she been summoned back or was she due back tonight anyway??

1tisILeClerc Tue 11-Dec-18 22:21:35

{ A Tory party leadership battle is not what the country needs now but maybe it will at least lead to an extension of a50.}
With the amount of messing about that has been and is going on the chances of an extension are pretty low surely, and doesn't it have to be at least a majority of the EU27 approving it?
There is no way they want any risk of Farage reappearing for another term.

GD12 Tue 11-Dec-18 22:25:26

Is anyone else struggling to see how we don't get a no deal at the moment?

Coggle Tue 11-Dec-18 22:26:55

NI was going to leave the UK and join Republic of Ireland at some point anyway - higher Catholic birthrate. Brexit just makes it a more obvious and urgent thing to do.
But Scotland would be left with a hard border with England/Wales. And a host of other problems in trying to go it alone.

Coggle Tue 11-Dec-18 22:27:41

I was expecting a No Deal anyway. Didn't expect it to be so dramatic though.

Coggle Tue 11-Dec-18 22:28:25

When will there be a big move by unpolitical people to start stockpiling I wonder.

GD12 Tue 11-Dec-18 22:28:45

@j_amesp

It’s apparent to @GuyDorrellEsq and I that the probability of a no deal exit has almost reached 100% given the news on the confidence vote within the Tory party & the EU’s predicted ramping of planning.

We’re recording a new episode of #TheFall on Friday. In the meantime, brace.

Peregrina Tue 11-Dec-18 22:29:28

She revokes in the morning and is outed in the afternoon.

While declaring, "Let me be clear, nothing has changed, nothing has changed, Brexit means Brexit and I intend to make a success of it."

BlueEyeshadow Tue 11-Dec-18 22:29:46

Incidentally, statement from our MP on the current interesting state of affairs cites "100s of letters from constituents" as factoring into his decision making. He might not answer them, but apparently they do make a difference.

1tisILeClerc Tue 11-Dec-18 22:30:30

{But Scotland would be left with a hard border with England/Wales. And a host of other problems in trying to go it alone.}
Well a 'hard' border with the UK wouldn't be the security threat of NI and scarily, Boris was proposing a bridge between NI and Scotland. It is about the only solid proposal that has come from a 'leaver' about whatever might happen after March 2019.

TokyoSushi Tue 11-Dec-18 22:31:20

I think she was due back, visit to Ireland tomorrow only seems to have been arranged quite late on today, so perhaps not much time to make overnight arrangements too, maybe.

TokyoSushi Tue 11-Dec-18 22:31:47

I think she was due back, visit to Ireland tomorrow only seems to have been arranged quite late on today, so perhaps not much time to make overnight arrangements too, maybe.

Stockpiling to start reasonably soon I think, but people might get Christmas out of the way first!

1tisILeClerc Tue 11-Dec-18 22:33:12

Of course the ultimate terror would not be Theresa revoking A50 now/soon but actually declaring OUT now!

turnipsaretheonlyveg Tue 11-Dec-18 22:37:46

The Republic of Ireland would be taking on plenty of problems with NI integration and I haven't in my personal experience spoken to an Irish person living in the Republic that wanted this to happen. They have all be in Favor of close ties but they saw many problems with unity.

Peregrina Tue 11-Dec-18 22:42:32

They have all be in Favor of close ties but they saw many problems with unity.

Would these problems be greater that seeing the UK crashing out of the EU though? Given that there have been 20 years of peace after the GFA, and more links between the two have been forged, I suspect the problems now would be fewer than 20 years ago. I don't know, it's just an opinion.

1tisILeClerc Tue 11-Dec-18 22:42:58

Germany managed it but it was a struggle and didn't have quite so much 'baggage'.

Apileofballyhoo Tue 11-Dec-18 22:44:10

Of course there are problems with unity and it would be costly and Ireland would be stuck with the DUP. But I'm hoping the EU would help out.

DoctorTwo Tue 11-Dec-18 22:45:02

Where did Leadsom get her ideas about the EU giving huge last-minute concessions to Greece?!

Fuck knows @ElenadeClermont. We have to remember Loathsome is a serial liar like her boss Sturmbahnfuhrer May. I'm not ruling out drugs though.

GD12 Tue 11-Dec-18 22:48:32

@skydavidblevin
In a telephone call tonight, Sinn Fein leader @MaryLouMcDonald told @theresa_may that a referendum on Irish unity must be held in the event of a no deal #Brexit.

Now we see the consequences of messing around with the GFA and a no deal.

turnipsaretheonlyveg Tue 11-Dec-18 22:48:33

I think the sheer cost of it is a major concern. It doesn't mean things c

Peregrina Tue 11-Dec-18 22:54:17

Now we see the consequences of messing around with the GFA and a no deal.

Am I correct in thinking that without the devolved Government in Stormont sitting, then no referendum can be called in NI, and it needs both RoI and NI to have one?

GD12 Tue 11-Dec-18 23:16:09

Not sure.

Inniu Wed 12-Dec-18 00:20:21

I actually think for the first time that the Republic of Ireland would vote for unity if NI wanted it.
The clusterfuck that is Brexit makes us more proud of being Irish and less likely to exclude the people of NI and leave them under the indifferent and actively harmful rule of Westminster. I would even pay more tax to achieve unity at this stage something I would not have said 6 months ago.

Inniu Wed 12-Dec-18 00:21:37

That said I don’t think NI would vote for unity and certainly not in time for a March deadline.

Peregrina Wed 12-Dec-18 00:36:36

Well, I would love to see what would happen if NI voted to unite with the Republic by 52% to 48%. Would we hear about 'the will of the people' I wonder, or would we have the Westminster Government trying to impose extra conditions, like needing a 2/3 majority? I think it's certainly theoretical at the moment, but I could certainly see it within ten years. This would be regardless of whether the UK stays in the EU or crashes out - I think the political classes have so damaged the reputation of the country that it will cause people to think again.

Inniu Wed 12-Dec-18 00:46:42

I think most in GB would be delighted to get rid of NI. It is only a previous Union when Tory’s need DUP votes. Handing it over based on the will of the people would be easy. It would be very different to the Scottish Indy ref.

The divorce bill.... now that might be different. 800 years as a stay at home dependent I can only imagine the clean break payment would be substantial.

SingingBabooshkaBadly Wed 12-Dec-18 01:05:55

These threads are moving so fast I pretty much missed the last one and this one is at page ten before I can even place mark.

Home life has completely taken over and I’ve had to rely far too much on what I can pick up from the radio whilst doing other stuff.

We really are teetering on the brink aren’t we?

Donnnerbox Wed 12-Dec-18 01:16:25

I'm now just hoping that MPs will accept the crap deal rather than go for the disaster of no deal. Our family is completely F***ed financially if there's a no deal. Obviously, many others will be in a similar position.

usuallydormant Wed 12-Dec-18 05:22:31

I think It's amending the UK union or Brexit, it's not possible to have both. Either NI is tied to RoI economically via the backstop or a crash Brexit forces a reunification poll.
(Btw RoI have to agree too and depending on the economic cost might say no. Ireland is going to be shafted economically by any kind of Brexit and I'm not convinced the additional cost of NI and a load of angry DUPers is going to be an attractive proposition to the Irish electorate.)

A NI only backstop, as per last year's agreement, might be be best way. Yes NI will have different status to rUk (as it has already on many issues) but the union would be there, if a bit wobblier, and rUk wouldn't be quite as beholden to EU. Not as good as remain obviously....

Mrsr8 Wed 12-Dec-18 06:01:05

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 06:12:17

Maybe since RTB is so good at this 'predicting' stuff it is actually her ideas that are being picked up by May and co and they are making the narrative into a reality?

If I thought this was even remotely true I'd predict other things.

Sadly there are just limited options as to what can happen, and the probability of them happening. If you understand the basis reality of the situation its not too hard to work out. The ERG are nothing if not predictable.

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 06:24:18

It's rare I'm up this early and there are NO political tweeters up.

Looks like news rooms all had a late night and/or are having an early morning briefing.

It's eerie.

LONG day ahead.

Buckle up. Keep your sense of humour and your chin up. This is going to be rough.

muststoplurking Wed 12-Dec-18 06:26:02

Delurking cos I'm a bit baffled, maybe someone can help. I have seen/heard leave supporters (MPs and general public) complain that TM is delaying/sabotaging brexit because she's a remoaner blah blah the usual. From what I can see, she seems hell bent on pushing through with it despite people on all sides trying to stop her?!? how is TM the issue here? She's clearly useless as a leader, but I don't understand how she's intentionally trying to sabotage Brexit ??

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 06:33:51

Stewart Jackson @ brexitstewart
But of course if there’s a ballot and if she’s re-elected the DUP will pull the plug on the confidence and supply arrangement.... .so it’s Vote May.....and get an early General Election

How much influence will Williamson have...

bellinisurge Wed 12-Dec-18 06:36:56

@muststoplurking the allegation is she is trying to stop Brexit because, for the first time, not leaving is a bit of an option.
I think, fwiw, she's using the situation to push it so that it's her Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal. No sane MP will push for No Deal.

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 06:40:12

Delurking cos I'm a bit baffled, maybe someone can help. I have seen/heard leave supporters (MPs and general public) complain that TM is delaying/sabotaging brexit because she's a remoaner blah blah the usual. From what I can see, she seems hell bent on pushing through with it despite people on all sides trying to stop her?!? how is TM the issue here? She's clearly useless as a leader, but I don't understand how she's intentionally trying to sabotage Brexit ??

TM is the issue for two reasons; the people you speak of, don't want to face up to reality that the UK doesn't have much of a negotiation hand and May tangled herself up in their red lines without first realising that reality, thus she burnt a lot of that good will.

When May realised the reality of the situation she's had to change tact but she's not a pragmatic type, so has a tenancy to ram things down people's throats in an aggressive fashion which gets peoples backs up. I'd argue that given the mess of her red lines and the whole of Westminster living in la la land over Brexit, she possibly had little alternative anyway.

But yes I do believe May is determined to get us out of the EU as that's her duty. She is telling the truth on this. She looks like she has done everything to save her own neck, but I believe she honestly thinks it's the only way to guarantee we get Brexit without a crash out no deal.

It looks like we now get to test this theory though.

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 06:42:57

Beth Rigby@bethrigby
Good morning: @OwenPaterson kicks off the day by tweeting out his letter calling for May to go and it’s excoriating.

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 06:44:44

He is a former NI secretary. Who should know better.

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 06:46:13

David Schnieder @ davidschnieder
Next Tory leader, latest odds:

The one who lied on a bus 6-1
The one who lied about impact assessments 8-1
The one who lied to Parliament and resigned 10-1
The one who lied and didn’t resign 15-1
The one who destroyed the NHS 20-1
The one who didn’t know we were an island 8-1

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 06:49:31

Latest Lord ashcroft poll. On Brexit outcomes.

Priorities are not what you might expect.

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 06:52:22

It's very unicorny as not one has managed the publics expectations for 3 years.

TokyoSushi Wed 12-Dec-18 07:00:31

I'm awake and checking in. Fascinated and horrified in equal measure about what's going to happen today. I work in an industry where our EU membership, or not really matters so there will be lots of discussion at work today too.

We have our Christmas meal out tonight, but we'll have one eye on the news.

I think it's going to be quite a day folks, but aren't they all at the moment!

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 07:18:05

Beth Rigby @bethrigby
Patterson says he handed his letter into Sir Graham Brady personally and he doesn’t think it was the the 48th letter because he thinks Brady would have announced by now #today

God they aren't even aware that Brady said he'd give May some grace!

They are that oblivious to reality.

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 07:22:33

Beth Rigby @bethrigby
Although think Sir Graham goes to PM and tells her first before he tells everyone else. And he doesn’t drop into No 10 at 10pm (when she returned last night)

And observations by political journos.

Patterson is stupid.

Utterly stupid.

It really is going to be a long day isn't it?

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 07:35:00

Beth Rigby@bethrigby
Patterson: You can accelerate the process you can put forward two candidates in 7-10 days.... he reckons party could get a new PM in by mid-Jan #today

Simon Hoare Mp @ simon4ndorset
This “timetable “ is utter and total nonsense . A vacuum would be created that couldn’t be filled until late February. This is the last throw of desperate dice by those who’ve never wanted a deal but who are personally insulated from any chill headwinds

Kevin Schofield@polhomeeditor
Theresa May's survival hopes rising every minute Owen Paterson is on the radio. #r4today

Nick Robinson making absolute mincemeat of Owen Paterson on the Today programme. He got an easier time from the badgers. #r4today

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 07:35:50

Beth Rigby @bethrigby
Gauke on @skynews defending May. Says confidence vote now would be “an act of huge self indulgence”

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 07:37:29

Ross Kempsall @rosskempsell
Chief whip just left Downing St
(time stamp 7.34am)

Beth Rigby@bethrigby
Having been in there at 10pm last night

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 07:38:11

Beth Rigby@bethrigby
BREAK: @skynews confirms that the threshold has been met.

lonelyplanetmum Wed 12-Dec-18 07:38:35

Chief whip stayed over? Or went back at 6 ish?

TokyoSushi Wed 12-Dec-18 07:42:52

Ooh we're on! How inconvenient it's the work Christmas dinner! Argh!

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 07:49:09

I bet it was an all nighter.

The chair of the Conservatives was seen leaving at 11pm.

I think there were cameras out all night under the circumstances.

Peregrina Wed 12-Dec-18 07:51:52

BBC Breaking News says that she will face a Leadership challenge.

I find it difficult to know what I feel. She has handled it badly so has brought so many of the problems on herself, but at the same time, it would have taken an extremely skilled negotiator to have tried to balance the competing, and impossible to reconcile aims, and she's not that. I have no time at all for her potential rivals. Her potential challengers have been like the Leavers on these threads - crowing about winning, but not being able to say exactly what they would do.
It will be interesting to see if Johnson ducks out of the challenge this time - if so, his leadership ambitions will be well and truly over.

In normal times a PM could stagger on with a minority government, but these times are not normal, even without our self-inflicted damage to the country.

Loletta Wed 12-Dec-18 07:52:53

So RTB what are the odds of TM being ousted?
(Thankful for all your insight thanks)

derxa Wed 12-Dec-18 07:53:49

But yes I do believe May is determined to get us out of the EU as that's her duty. She is telling the truth on this. She looks like she has done everything to save her own neck, but I believe she honestly thinks it's the only way to guarantee we get Brexit without a crash out no deal.
Yes. What a lot of gutless wonders those Tory MPs are.

Plonkysaurus Wed 12-Dec-18 07:57:47

God I'd love her to revoke this morning, and just walk away from the whole thing, whistling a merry tune.

(I'm off to the airport, so I'll let you know if I see any pigs on the runway)

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon Wed 12-Dec-18 07:58:38

grin

Emma Hardy MP
@EmmaHardyMP
Breaking news. Conservatives can count to 48.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon Wed 12-Dec-18 07:59:30

Beth Rigby
@BethRigby
BREAK: PM is to address the 1922 committee tonight ahead of the vote on whether she should stay on. That will be the speech of her career won’t it?

RedToothBrush Wed 12-Dec-18 08:01:10

Lolletta, tweet on new thread sourced from a senior tory thinks she's survive with 115 votes against her. 110 - 120 votes is around the area that is being suggested it would be untenable for her to stay anyway. But this is the zombie pm and she's previously said she'd stay even if she won by 1 vote... So...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3449020-Westminstenders-Dear-Santa-for-Christmas-Id-like

New thread.

Peregrina Wed 12-Dec-18 08:03:15

But yes I do believe May is determined to get us out of the EU as that's her duty. She is telling the truth on this.

I agree with this, but like Cameron's arbitrary immigration targets which she was determined (and failed) to meet, she appears to treat it like a difficult homework task which she has to complete. She had at least negotiated something, which we haven't seen any of the other Leavers be able to do.

Where are our Leaver friends now who when asked what their solutions were told us that they trusted the PM to get on with it? A little quiet - hardly seen a whisker of them on this thread.

Minimammoth Wed 12-Dec-18 08:11:13

I’m lighting a candle for peace goodwill and common sense.

HesterThrale Wed 12-Dec-18 08:42:20

Good idea *@minimammoth*.
I’ll light one too. We should all light a candle and hope.

(And at this point, I think the only common sense way is revoking.)

OhYouBadBadKitten Wed 12-Dec-18 08:49:33

well, shes not voluntarily stepping down.

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Wed 12-Dec-18 09:09:03

I’m not sure she understands the concept of stepping down.

Never really sure why she doesn’t just call them out on the argument that the negotiations being bad because she’s a remainer. Maybe she assumes it’s such obvious spin everyone can see it for what it is.

lonelyplanetmum Wed 12-Dec-18 09:18:41

I have a strong instinct she'll survive the vote and stay on. She does have grit and tenacity if nothing else. She is known as a bloody difficult woman after all.

Once she survives that -hopefully JRM would step down? Except he's quite zombie like too.

Is there any chance a failed leadership challenge would further marginalise the ERG and increase confidence towards a Norway ++ alternative. (Not exactly Norway obvs as they don't want us, the selfish superior hubristic narcissist that we are. )

DGRossetti Wed 12-Dec-18 09:48:13

If she does survive, will the narrative be that by challenging - and failing - we can ignore the ERG and headbanger Brexiteers from now on ?

Motheroffourdragons Wed 12-Dec-18 09:50:37

If she does win then Corbyn has to go for no confidence motion and force the gen election to be honest.
We clearly need a new government - May can’t have any credibility left in the outside real world

SingingBabooshkaBadly Wed 12-Dec-18 09:51:54

I thought it interesting that she said a new leader’s only options would be to extend or rescind A50. No mention of No Deal. Is it because she knows many listening see No Deal as a no problem?

lonelyplanetmum Wed 12-Dec-18 09:52:26

Yes I think so. Like UKIP the ERG have caused such panic, and a schism. But it's the fear of them rather than the reality, they've a demonstrable inability to come up with any plans. Getting to 48 was a struggle and needed support of maverick non ERG MPs .They are now seen to be one trick ponies.

1tisILeClerc Wed 12-Dec-18 10:20:51

(They are now seen to be one trick ponies.}
Is that the rhyming slang version, pony and c--p (rhymes with trap).

nomorearsingmermaids Wed 12-Dec-18 16:45:08

Wtf would be the point of a new leader anyway? May (broadly speaking anyway) isn't the problem. Brexit is the problem.

1tisILeClerc Wed 12-Dec-18 16:49:51

{Brexit is the problem.}
Not even that really. Brexit COULD have been a smooth transition if handled properly.
It is however difficult to see how the UK will actually be better off than it was and NO politicians, or anyone else has managed to say how this can be done at even a simple outline that does not involve fanciful ideas.

GirlsBlouse17 Wed 12-Dec-18 18:37:24

Well done Redtoothbrush on your accurate inside info yesterday.

I know it's not really a thought for right now but I think there needs to be a breakaway party from the Tory party like there was with the SDP and Labour in 1981. The divisions are just too big to keep it together.

Right now though part of me is hoping for a vote of no confidence in TM or the Government as a whole bevause TM is so set on going ahead with Brexit no matter what it seems. I want a door to open to give us the chance to have a second referendum but I just don't see how that is going to happen.

nomorearsingmermaids Wed 12-Dec-18 18:45:46

I don't think she'll be ousted, and all this will just end up being a colossal waste of time.

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