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Leave voters? What's your alternative plan for the country if TM's Withdrawal Agreement doesn't get through?

(1000 Posts)
bellinisurge Sat 08-Dec-18 14:26:24

A small majority of people who voted in the referendum voted Leave. I presume they still want to Leave. How do we do that if the Withdrawal Agreement fails and Parliament has voted through an amendment which allows it to stop No Deal.
Talk me through it ...

Agustarella Sat 08-Dec-18 14:46:53

I'm not sure how exactly parliament could prevent No Deal. That amendment looks to me like a face-saving way of absolving MPs from being blamed for a No Deal outcome even as they are the ones bringing about that situation by voting down the WA. Even if A50 is ruled to be unilaterally revocable, parliament will presumably have to find a way to force the PM to send the letter (or whatever she has to do to cancel the whole thing) and Mrs May has ruled out ever doing this. But I guess it's pointless to speculate about any of this before Monday's ECJ ruling.

But, whatever happens, we know that No Deal is still the default option that will happen all by itself on March 29th, unless some pretty heroic measures are taken to prevent or delay it. I don't think I'd care to predict the eventual outcome at this stage, but I'm guessing that No Deal is the odds-on likeliest event even though it may no longer be the legally inevitable result of the WA failing.

Sorry, I know this was supposed to be a question to Leavers. smile

MyNameIsArthur Sat 08-Dec-18 16:37:25

It's in Parliaments hands isn't it. My hope is that somehow Parliament votes for a second referendum with the option to remain.

bellinisurge Sat 08-Dec-18 16:44:09

Has any Leave voter told their MP what they want? I'd be interested to see what you told them.
Not saying your MP will do what you want but you should be telling them.

MyNameIsArthur Sat 08-Dec-18 17:03:24

I told my MP but he wrote back saying he would not support a referendum and that he had spoken to other constituents who just want to get on with Brexit!

Accountant222 Sat 08-Dec-18 19:00:27

If I had the answer to your question I'd probably be running the country, not number crunching like I normally do.

Jason118 Sat 08-Dec-18 20:51:35

Waits for responses....

bellinisurge Sat 08-Dec-18 21:12:24

You and me both, @Jason118 .

MyNameIsArthur Sat 08-Dec-18 21:43:26

It is in Parliaments hands and I think you already know the options. All that is left is renegotiation with the EU, a second referendum, revoking article 50.

bellinisurge Sat 08-Dec-18 21:47:14

Surely no deal and revoke A50 are still options.
Saying "I think you know " doesn't answer the question. Leave supporters seem very clear about what they want next but there seem to be so many different versions of "what they want next", I wanted to see if there were any common themes.

Doubletrouble99 Sun 09-Dec-18 00:00:36

As a leave voter I want many of the things in the current agreement but I certainly don't want to be stuck in the back stop. So what I would ideally like to see is the Gov. going back to the EU and renegotiating the back stop. However I can see France and Spain at the very least having a go at changing a few things too so just not that simple.
The main thing I have a problem with with parliament voting on this is that the vast majority of the MPs are remain voters and many are using this, calling it a 'terrible deal' etc. etc. to their own ends, demanding second referendums and general elections neither of which solve the problem of getting out of the EU. I mean what happens to our negotiations if we still vote to leave in another referendum an even worse deal I have no doubt. To say we would be on the back foot would be an understatement. What if we had a general election and conservatives won? There are certainly plenty of labour voters out there who still won't vote for JC. Again we have to start all over again with the Brexit negotiations.

No one seems to be thinking this through, they just think they will be able to stop Brexit and stay in the EU - well guess what, that probably wouldn't happen.

Jason118 Sun 09-Dec-18 00:14:42

#doubletrouble99
Would you vote for it, as it stands?

ZenNudist Sun 09-Dec-18 00:29:44

I am a remainer so cant answer your question sorry. I dont really want a second referendum. I dont trust the British public to appreciate the issues and the politicians will lie to get what they want anyway.

I cant stand JC so dont want him in charge. I respect Mays deal as the shit show we were always going to get from this: a worse deal than we had already.

As a remainer i want to see us negotiating with EU to stay. I think we need to address the concerns of a large section of the populace that voted leave (lets not pretend everyone who did that did so for the same reasons). We need to step up our diplomatic game in Brussels because if brexit has been anything its been an epic failure of diplomacy on both sides. The EU needs to reform. A two speed Europe could be a solution (i think we had that already with Shengen and the Euro).

GhostofFrankGrimes Sun 09-Dec-18 07:25:24

The questions should have been phrased as "how do you leave the EU fully and maintain the GFA?" Because that is why we currently have the much hated back stop.

lonelyplanetmum Sun 09-Dec-18 08:31:41

Good positive thread Bellini.

Where are the responses? So far there has been one substantive response which says:

• Overall happy with the WA (and declaration of what TMs deal might include ) but not happy with the backstop.

So that's helpful- it would be good if anyone else who is a 2018 supporter of relinquishing EU membership makes at least one suggestion of elements of an alternative plan.Then we can summarise all the bits together.

Unescorted Sun 09-Dec-18 08:34:55

I keep coming back here to see what I have missed. Not much it appears.

bellinisurge Sun 09-Dec-18 08:39:57

@lonelyplanetmum , thank you. I think (happy to be corrected) that the main thing people are unhappy about is the backstop which may never get used anyway.
My alternative is a border in the sea and NI as a free trade zone making money out of its unique position.
Obviously, my other alternative is to revoke A50. We will, no doubt, continue to be a grumpy member of the EU. But useful for that reason. We can encourage difficult conversations in the EU about immigration and expanding membership. And we still get to be part of the biggest trade bloc in the world.
A No Deal should and must be avoided at all costs.

Weetabixandshreddies Sun 09-Dec-18 08:55:44

I voted to leave because I want the UK to have sovereignty, to make our own laws, to control our own finances, to not have to financially prop up other countries over whom we have no control (Greece et al).

As far as I am concerned, once the referendum was done it was up to the government to negotiate our leaving.

It seems to me, that as most want to stay, they have gone all out to sabotage the process.

They knew the referendum was coming and they should already have started the process. Their handling of this is terrible and any blame should lay at the door of parliament, not with the voters who voted to leave.

bellinisurge Sun 09-Dec-18 09:01:22

But @Weetabixandshreddies , just because you want a thing doesn't mean it's easy to get or without horribly negative consequences. Surely you know that from daily life.
You can't dump the blame at Parliament's door.
I want a fancy car and a fancy house and fancy gadgets and I am fairly confident that if I worked a different job with 20 hour days I might earn a salary that gets those things but I would never see my family I would spend a lot of family budget on childcare and I would destroy my mental and physical health. Who would I blame in that scenario?

GhostofFrankGrimes Sun 09-Dec-18 09:02:42

The government knows full well that sovereignty was never lost, the UK controls its laws and benefits economically from EU membership it just doesn't have the courage to tell the electorate this.

What is the solution to the border issue in Ireland?

meditrina Sun 09-Dec-18 09:15:33

I don't think there'sything to talk through.

EU won't negotiate further, so if this deal fails then there's no deal. Whatever the electorate thinks, whether they voted leave or remain

I didn't vote leave, but don't think the question in the title of the thread needs to be restricted to leave voters.

The country voted to leave, and the only question after that was about terms. And now it's this deal or no deal. Who actually wants their MP to vote for No Deal?

(Further referendum is castle in the air now - there isn't time - it's wishful thinking, which I can see is seductive, but will only serve to further the aims of hardliners who want No Deal)

1tisILeClerc Sun 09-Dec-18 09:20:58

All this nonsense about the 'backstop'.
Of course a backstop with no time limit is needed. The whole point is that it provides an impetus for the UK gov to actually negotiate something better, at which point the backstop is immaterial.
With the twisting turning and outright lying that the UK gov has been doing for over 2 years of course a backstop is essential, people's lives depend on it.

Weetabixandshreddies Sun 09-Dec-18 09:23:07

bellinisurge

Surely that's the difference between individual and national responsibility?

I am responsible for my own income and expenditure.

I have no control over government spending, policies etc other than exercising my right to vote.

In my view the EU cannot work as a group of individual countries, only as a United States of Europe.

Taking it to the individual level would you ever consider sharing finances with a spendthrift friend who earned half of what you do? You both have access to the combined income. You are cautious, save for a rainy day etc whilst your friend is out buying expensive holidays, big cars etc financed by you?

That is what being in the EU feels like to me. Countries exerting low wages, rising retirement age, cutting benefits etc are having to bail out other countries who are less than careful with their spending.

Open borders across Europe is frankly a bonkers policy. No one has any idea who is entering or leaving a mainland European country which is quite bizarre.

If the government were not willing to negotiate a Brexit in our favour then they should never have offered us the choice. This was the result of politicians playing games and they obviously didn't believe that it would come to this.

They don't want to leave and are doing their very best to make it fail and push for a second referendum. By which time they hope the electorate will be so scared that they will vote to stay.

We voted to leave. Why is that vote any less valid than the result of a general election? Next time can the losing side argue for another general election because they don't like the result?

bellinisurge Sun 09-Dec-18 09:34:05

But @Weetabixandshreddies it simply isn't the case that anyone who gets into Europe can get here. We're not in Schengen. So we don't have open borders. How we manage our border has always been a matter for us. Open borders/Schengen is not the same as FOM. We have always had scope to put restrictions on workers coming here.

Weetabixandshreddies Sun 09-Dec-18 09:48:46

bellinisurge
I didn't say anyone could enter the. UK, I said they could travel freely around mainland Europe which has to be a massive security risk?

We've driven all over Europe with no checks at all after we left Dover. So a criminal could leave the UK and then disappear.

When were we, in the UK, given the option to vote on whether to become so enmeshed in the EU such that it became impossible to leave?

We were given the choice to leave. The majority voted to do so and at that point it became the government's responsibility to negotiate the best exit deal. If they can't then leave with the WTO Brexit.

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